Catalonia and Independence

[God is Haaland]

[Kowabunga]

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Josep Dencàs The Wisethe nazi? No?... I thought not. It's not a story the Sith would tell.

 

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Josep Dencàs The Wisethe nazi? No?... I thought not. It's not a story the Sith would tell.

 

Or the story in how Catalonia lavished themselves in riches with their more than active role during the Spanish Empire of Charles V. 

[Azeem]

18 hours ago, SirBalon said:

 

REAL DEMOCRACY WILL BE ON THE 21st DECEMBER

                                       Democracy is that type of Government in which we count people but we don't weigh them 

[SirBalon]

26 minutes ago, Azeem98 said:

                                       Democracy is that type of Government in which we count people but we don't weigh them 

Witch hunting was outlawed centuries ago in Europe. No longer do you have to weigh more than a duck to be accused of heresy.

Now we have constitutions that are inclusive of all citizens. A constitution consists of rules to protect all and all interests.

The elections of the 21st of December includes the view of every Catalonian citizen. The constitution then includes the importance of all assigned regions into the importance of a union which affects all, no matter where they’re from within the nation, what colour they are, what sexuality, what sex, what religion, what ideology... It is inclusive and never exclusive.

[Honey Honey]

If the separatists get a majority then the fallout will expose to the world that this is a sham false election not fit to be called democracy. 

 

[SirBalon]

6 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

If the separatists get a majority then the fallout will expose to the world that this is a sham false election not fit to be called democracy. 

 

If the seperatists get a majority on what?

[Azeem]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

If the seperatists get a majority on what?

On seceding from Spain i guess

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Azeem98 said:

On seceding from Spain i guess

It seems people are talking about things that they know very little about. Apart from the fact most posts on here have no understanding of what Spain is, now we have a simple factor on not even knowing what the elections on the 21st of December are actually for but yet still formulating an opinion.

The elections are for the new government of Catalonia seeing as the one they had till now broke the law and the constitutional rules.

[Azeem]

11 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It seems people are talking about things that they know very little about. Apart from the fact most posts on here have no understanding of what Spain is, now we have a simple factor on not even knowing what the elections on the 21st of December are actually for but yet still formulating an opinion.

The elections are for the new government of Catalonia seeing as the one they had till now broke the law and the constitutional rules.

 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Azeem98 said:

 

Spain is a strange country mate. What has been going on in Catalonia over the past decade or so with the “Proces” and using centralist funds for the indoctrination of kids coupled with regional media manipulation is as bad as anything anyone can throw around.

Nothing is perfect in this world. Spain has had terrible politics for over 20 years and everyone is to blame for this.

But what I can guarantee you is that nobody has been oppressed. It’s absolutely ridiculous from all sides.

All of this is an example of Spanish society as it stands with it’s absolutely crap politics. 

[Honey Honey]

It might actually be the case that someone without the ethnic backdrop has a perspective that is freer from biases, a sort of mediator observation. But no, if you haven't got the right colour skin you simply cannot grasp Spain, the exceptionalist land, untouched for millennia, where no philosophy or observation of humankind or its universal structures can ever be applied to such an alien country, things such as democracy aren't applicable, err, wait, no, that one applies.

If combined the separatists take a majority in the regional election it exposes that those calling this "democracy" to settle the issue are frauds whose real goal was to avoid the humiliating reality and pass that humiliation onto the separatists instead. Why? Because they will continue to refuse the right to talks, to a real referendum and the right to secede. This election is clearly about obstructionism. It is a last gasp attempt to not send the fascist boot boys in which they were being deliberately provoked to do. It is a political maneuver and has little at all to do with upholding the values of democracy. It is closer to the elections dictators hold than to the liberty that is supposed to accompany democracy.

[SirBalon]

15 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

It might actually be the case that someone without the ethnic backdrop has a perspective that is freer from biases, a sort of mediator observation. But no, if you haven't got the right colour skin you simply cannot grasp Spain, the exceptionalist land, untouched for millennia, where no philosophy or observation of humankind or its universal structures can ever be applied to such an alien country, things such as democracy aren't applicable, err, wait, no, that one applies.

If combined the separatists take a majority in the regional election it exposes that those calling this "democracy" to settle the issue are frauds whose real goal was to avoid the humiliating reality and pass that humiliation onto the separatists instead. Why? Because they will continue to refuse the right to talks, to a real referendum and the right to secede. This election is clearly about obstructionism. It is a last gasp attempt to not send the fascist boot boys in which they were being deliberately provoked to do. It is a political maneuver and has little at all to do with upholding the values of democracy. It is closer to the elections dictators hold than to the liberty that is supposed to accompany democracy.

It is defending the constitution!  There are no historical foundations for Catalonia to separate from Spain, at least none that are more important than others.

Any separatist talk would have to include the whole of Spain as it affects the whole country and for a LEGAL referendum of this nature to occur, the constitution must be amended.  There are rules everyone subscribes to and they must be observed.

The election is about the fact the now previous Catalonian parliament broke the law under the rules of the constitution and were sacked by the central government due to the fact you CAN'T declare independence.  Where's the obstruction?

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

It is defending the constitution!  There are no historical foundations for Catalonia to separate from Spain, at least none that are more important than others.

Any separatist talk would have to include the whole of Spain as it affects the whole country and for a LEGAL referendum of this nature to occur, the constitution must be amended.  There are rules everyone subscribes to and they must be observed.

The election is about the fact the now previous Catalonian parliament broke the law under the rules of the constitution and were sacked by the central government due to the fact you CAN'T declare independence.  Where's the obstruction?

The referendum and the declaration of independence are a by product of aggressively upholding a dysfunctional constitution. An immovable constitution that isn't fit for purpose.

Rather than address this with mediation and talks at any point along the long journey, Rajoy has consistently sought to quash it. Obstruct what is manifesting itself. Where is the evidence that the election is anything other than a continuation of that? 

[SirBalon]

33 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Rather than address this with mediation and talks at any point along the long journey, Rajoy has consistently sought to quash it. Obstruct what is manifesting itself. Where is the evidence that the election is anything other than a continuation of that? 

This is true and I have consistently said this too.

33 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

The referendum and the declaration of independence are a by product of aggressively upholding a dysfunctional constitution. An immovable constitution that isn't fit for purpose.

A constitution are the rules that everybody abides by and rules set that everybody signed to.  The constitution needs to be reformed without a doubt, but that comes before stupid moves like the ones El Govern made.  Illegal moves!

[Guest]

Can someone explain to me. Why is it that Catalonia has it's own language and has always had people who have wanted it to seperate from Spain? Assuming this isn't the case with all regions in Spain?

[Honey Honey]

54 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

A constitution are the rules that everybody abides by and rules set that everybody signed to.  The constitution needs to be reformed without a doubt, but that comes before stupid moves like the ones El Govern made.  Illegal moves!

I doubt those moves would have happened had reform been plausibly coming though. People can do stupid things and take risks when they perceive themselves to be trapped.

We now have people jailed and exiled for a political position inside the European Union, wtf, that is embarrassing. Going to jail for a non-violent rebellion? Shameful. Sanctions should be imposed on Spain and Catalonia if their leaders refuse to come to the table. Too late now of course since Catalonia's democratically elected leaders were removed by force and a false democracy mantra is being put forward to try and fit the fascism to the era.

 

 

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

I doubt those moves would have happened had reform been plausibly coming though. People can do stupid things and take risks when they perceive themselves to be trapped.

We now have people jailed and exiled for a political position inside the European Union, wtf, that is embarrassing. Going to jail for a non-violent rebellion? Shameful. Sanctions should be imposed on Spain and Catalonia if their leaders refuse to come to the table. Too late now of course since Catalonia's democratically elected leaders were removed by force and a false democracy mantra is being put forward to try and fit the fascism to the era.

 

 

We have a constitution in Spain and that constitution doesn’t allow for separatism. We also have a democratically elected government for the nation which is there to protect the constitution and the rights of all citizens. Not 43% of the citizens of a region which is coaxed into participating in an illegal referendum that is meaningless and where the large part of the money the central government has been giving them has been spent on media and educational indoctrination and then complaining they no longer have funds to finance the ancient electrical distribution for their mountain villages... Money that was specifically given to sort that out!

You can talk all you like but you’ve got a lot to learn about a complicated country like Spain. Many are at fault here and the central government is far from being exempt from blame. But playing the cheap freedom card here without understanding what the hell is going on is very strange coming from you. But you’re entitled to your opinion because that’s all it is... An opinion without knowledge.

You can’t assign yourself to a set of rules everyone abides by including other regions that would like the same as Catalonia but respect the rules and vie for a reform in the constitutional laws and then go ahead by playing martyr and victim in something that’s very far away from that. Remember that Catalonia is split almost in half on this with major Catalonian companies moving out of the region because of some silver spoon fed nobles who are playing with small minds...

[Azeem]

19 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Can someone explain to me. Why is it that Catalonia has it's own language and has always had people who have wanted it to seperate from Spain? Assuming this isn't the case with all regions in Spain?

A lot of countries have regions/states that have their own language which is the official language of the state alongside the 'lingua france'. Catalonia isn't unique in that sense.

[SirBalon]

20 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Can someone explain to me. Why is it that Catalonia has it's own language and has always had people who have wanted it to seperate from Spain? Assuming this isn't the case with all regions in Spain?

I'm not going to go into the complexed history of Spain which is long and arduous.  Infact to understand everything it would take something even more than 20 scholars on the theme.

Just to say that the Spanish language, the uniform language, CASTILLIAN (Castellano) which is Spanish to you, is the newest language of them all in Spain and was invented so as to uniformly united all speakers in the Iberian Peninsula (except for Portugal of course).  Previously to that and except for the regions with their own language, the rest of Spain spoke Latin.

Catalonia isn't the only region with its own language in Spain and isn't even the oldest, not that this matters actually.

The three officially recognised historical languages of Spain by age are:

• Euskera (Basque) from the Basque region in green
• Galego (Galician) from the region of Galicia in blue
• Català (Catalan) from the region of Catalonia in red and yellow.

You will notice that underneath Catalonia the region of Valencia and the Balearic Islands to the right are also in yellow but without red stripes.  This is because they all speak Catalonian (so do Sardinia in Italy but isn't included in this map), but a version of it and is a dialect, subsequently not recognised as official languages.

Then there are other ancient dialects in Spain like Cantabro from Cantabria (to the left of the Basque region) and Bable from Asturias (to the right of Galicia).  These other two aren't recognised as official languages because they've been bastardised and contain various identifiable languages which also include Castillian (official Spanish).

Catalonia as I've said many times, have no particular right above any other historical region of Spain that has disputed these things in the past and continue to do so like Catalonia is doing.  Infact what grates a little more is that Catalonia is 65% a population of immigrants mainly from other parts of Spain (mostly the south) and a low percentage of foreign immigrants, which in my view exempts them from all of this nationalistic feeling...  But that last bit is just a personal view and opinion of mine which I am happy for forgo in any argument.

I am no scholar on Spanish history, but I do know enough, more than enough to have an understanding of what's going on.  I know there are many parts to blame in this whole process, but what I don't understand is ignorance having an argumentative opinion on this when the whole nation is complexed.

Like I said...  There are rules, a set of rules for all!  If a large proportion of the country don't like the rules (I personally don't like them), then something should be done to change and modify those rules which are the constitution.  But until then. WE ALL ABIDE BY THOSE RULES!

Anyway...  Language alone isn't enough of a reason for all of this in my opinion.  Like I said, there are other regions with more of a legitimate standing on all of this.

[Kowabunga]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I'm not going to go into the complexed history of Spain which is long and arduous.  Infact to understand everything it would take something even more than 20 scholars on the theme.

Just to say that the Spanish language, the uniform language, CASTILLIAN (Castellano) which is Spanish to you, is the newest language of them all in Spain and was invented so as to uniformly united all speakers in the Iberian Peninsula (except for Portugal of course).  Previously to that and except for the regions with their own language, the rest of Spain spoke Latin.

Catalonia isn't the only region with its own language in Spain and isn't even the oldest, not that this matters actually.

The three officially recognised historical languages of Spain by age are:

• Euskera (Basque) from the Basque region in green
• Galego (Galician) from the region of Galicia in blue
• Català (Catalan) from the region of Catalonia in red and yellow.

You will notice that underneath Catalonia the region of Valencia and the Balearic Islands to the right are also in yellow but without red stripes.  This is because they all speak Catalonian (so do Sardinia in Italy but isn't included in this map), but a version of it and is a dialect, subsequently not recognised as official languages.

Then there are other ancient dialects in Spain like Cantabro from Cantabria (to the left of the Basque region) and Bable from Asturias (to the right of Galicia).  These other two aren't recognised as official languages because they've been bastardised and contain various identifiable languages which also include Castillian (official Spanish).

Catalonia as I've said many times, have no particular right above any other historical region of Spain that has disputed these things in the past and continue to do so like Catalonia is doing.  Infact what grates a little more is that Catalonia is 65% a population of immigrants mainly from other parts of Spain (mostly the south) and a low percentage of foreign immigrants, which in my view exempts them from all of this nationalistic feeling...  But that last bit is just a personal view and opinion of mine which I am happy for forgo in any argument.

I am no scholar on Spanish history, but I do know enough, more than enough to have an understanding of what's going on.  I know there are many parts to blame in this whole process, but what I don't understand is ignorance having an argumentative opinion on this when the whole nation is complexed.

Like I said...  There are rules, a set of rules for all!  If a large proportion of the country don't like the rules (I personally don't like them), then something should be done to change and modify those rules which are the constitution.  But until then. WE ALL ABIDE BY THOSE RULES!

Anyway...  Language alone isn't enough of a reason for all of this in my opinion.  Like I said, there are other regions with more of a legitimate standing on all of this.

I find the discussion about what branch of vernacular latin in the Iberian Peninsula is the oldest veeeeery lame.

"Oh. This shitty piece of 12th century corrupt Latin reads more castilian than navarrese-aragonese. It even has features of astur-leonese romance varieties, this surely proves that my language is older than..." Right... Sure, buddy. Just happen to understand current day Galician 100 times better than that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I like how that fella incited a bunch of bullshit, fed into and tried to create a crisis, and then fucked off from the country. Real piece of shit.

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

I find the discussion about what branch of vernacular latin in the Iberian Peninsula is the oldest veeeeery lame.

"Oh. This shitty piece of 12th century corrupt Latin reads more castilian than navarrese-aragonese. It even has features of astur-leonese romance varieties, this surely proves that my language is older than..." Right... Sure, buddy. Just happen to understand current day Galician 100 times better than that.

I said in my introduction for the benefit of @Gunnersauraus that age or language wasn't important mate.

But because so many people get all anal about language like @Azeem98 alluded to, I went into my rhetoric.  For me language doesn't even scrape enough of dirt of the earth to merit any jump for independence from a regional part of any nation.  It's totally ridiculous for anyone that's merely paid any modem of attention to history when they were at school.

On the other hand I can appreciate that people living in these regions and having been indoctrinated, that they feel language as something so sentimental of a base to demand something of their own.  The fact I appreciate it doesn't mean that I agree with it when I observe the bigger picture.  This is ALL too complexed and very complicated...  The problem is that there's been a lack of dialogue for eons and this has led to those with an agenda having free reign of many resources to produce what we have today!  Hence "El Procés Català" being able to be brewed for a number of years without smart and honest reaction.

I don't subscribe to these things because I'm not an idiot and I'm forthright in my interpretation of people because those easily led are those that should be kneeling afterwards saying 100 Hail Marys.  I've been party to stupidity myself in my time and most recently in the Brexit Referendum...  I trusted and I was stupid to do so which was a lot more simplistic than the calculated decade or more that the various manifestations of "El Govern Català" has had to do its work.

It's the central government's fault in most of this and that includes both the main parties!

[Honey Honey]

On 31/10/2017 at 4:11 PM, SirBalon said:

We have a constitution in Spain and that constitution doesn’t allow for separatism. We also have a democratically elected government for the nation which is there to protect the constitution and the rights of all citizens. Not 43% of the citizens of a region which is coaxed into participating in an illegal referendum that is meaningless and where the large part of the money the central government has been giving them has been spent on media and educational indoctrination and then complaining they no longer have funds to finance the ancient electrical distribution for their mountain villages... Money that was specifically given to sort that out!

You can talk all you like but you’ve got a lot to learn about a complicated country like Spain. Many are at fault here and the central government is far from being exempt from blame. But playing the cheap freedom card here without understanding what the hell is going on is very strange coming from you. But you’re entitled to your opinion because that’s all it is... An opinion without knowledge.

You can’t assign yourself to a set of rules everyone abides by including other regions that would like the same as Catalonia but respect the rules and vie for a reform in the constitutional laws and then go ahead by playing martyr and victim in something that’s very far away from that. Remember that Catalonia is split almost in half on this with major Catalonian companies moving out of the region because of some silver spoon fed nobles who are playing with small minds...

That seems to largely be an anti separatist rant when at no point have I ever argued that independence should be granted because of a 43% turnout referendum or even because polling now shows a majority lead for independence. I don't quite know why you are arguing against the referendum and independence with me when I'm not even arguing for or against it, I don't have a dog in that fight, you do and seem to be letting it bark over the top of everything.

I'm arguing about whether democratic processes are hindered in an irrational and unreasonable manner. Nothing in your post has convinced me otherwise. 

Everyone apart from some Scottish nationalist party members and Sinn Fein, know that the separatists are cranks, that doesn't need discussing. Yet there's nothing curious about their behaviour, its manifestation is obviously the product of being backed into a corner and this gives them the ultinate gift of being able to make moves to provoke a fascist response and further their cause, which is exactly what they are getting. What is more suspicious is the lack of introspection that leads to those who insist on supporting moves which continue to pin them in that corner. It seems to me, including from your posting in this thread, that support for this fudge about constitutional law and authoritarian reactions is caused by the inability to swallow ones own pride. The sheer hatred and perhaps fear of separaists, the desperate need to rant about how terrible they are and to portray the self as the knight in shining armour defending those in Catalonia who didn't vote is all acting to inhibit the ability to correct imperfections in the rights of citizens in an effective and reasonable manner. No historical or cultural studying is required. It is as plain as day.

11 ministers jailed yesterday for political reasons. There is no justification for it which can coincide with the belief in liberty. This is a conservative authoritarian response which is inkeeping with who Rajoy is.

[SirBalon]

20 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

That seems to largely be an anti separatist rant when at no point have I ever argued that independence should be granted because of a 43% turnout referendum or even because polling now shows a majority lead for independence. I don't quite know why you are arguing against the referendum and independence with me when I'm not even arguing for or against it, I don't have a dog in that fight, you do and seem to be letting it bark over the top of everything.

I'm arguing about whether democratic processes are hindered in an irrational and unreasonable manner. Nothing in your post has convinced me otherwise. 

Everyone apart from some Scottish nationalist party members and Sinn Fein, know that the separatists are cranks, that doesn't need discussing. Yet there's nothing curious about their behaviour, its manifestation is obviously the product of being backed into a corner and this gives them the ultinate gift of being able to make moves to provoke a fascist response and further their cause, which is exactly what they are getting. What is more suspicious is the lack of introspection that leads to those who insist on supporting moves which continue to pin them in that corner. It seems to me, including from your posting in this thread, that support for this fudge about constitutional law and authoritarian reactions is caused by the inability to swallow ones own pride. The sheer hatred and perhaps fear of separaists, the desperate need to rant about how terrible they are and to portray the self as the knight in shining armour defending those in Catalonia who didn't vote is all acting to inhibit the ability to correct imperfections in the rights of citizens in an effective and reasonable manner. No historical or cultural studying is required. It is as plain as day.

11 ministers jailed yesterday for political reasons. There is no justification for it which can coincide with the belief in liberty. This is a conservative authoritarian response which is inkeeping with who Rajoy is.

I have nothing against separatists or people that feel whatever they want to feel as long as it doesn't hinder anyone else's liberties.  Obviously on here I haven't had a cause to be more detailed and eloquent on the situation revolving what's been going on in Catalonia because here it's a side issue and doesn't really affect anyone's daily life.  Here it would be more of a theme of debate if we were talking Scottish independence and I've said my part on that in the past which I maintain in the same vein on what's going on in Spain.  I'm not surprised at what politicians in power with a separatist ideology manifest...  That doesn't surprise me, but there are rules and those rules aren't out of order or off the scale on any measure.  There are rules in the UK and there are rules in Spain to the same effect which includes central government for any permission to activate a people's opinion (i.e. a referendum).

My origins come from a part of Spain (Galicia) with similar issues to Catalonia although not as vocal.  but it's as fervent and it's becoming more and more acute with every generation that passes aswell as the one everyone knows in Euskadi (the Basque region).  I also have third generation family in both Bilbao as well as in Barcelona and Girona...  I know the sentiments very well, I know the arguments and I even have a modem of sympathy with them but none of it lies in any Francoist era and neither does it have a basis of foundation on lagrange differences.  It's based on history and culture...  Spain is different! as they like to say in the Iberian Peninsula!

Any secession in Spain affects all Spaniards and because of this every Spaniard must have a say....  I have my own ideas behind how this could be resolved, but I'm nobody and mine is just a way of looking for solutions for the good of the nation as a whole.  A federal state in Spain would be the way to go and for that to occur a referendum in Spain must be first held so as to amend the constitution so as then everyone can dialogue and act within the law.  You can't have one part doing what they want by breaking the law and then others with similar feeling adhering to it.  What's the point in having a constitution which is there to protect everyone's interests.

I am neither pro or anti independence...  But I am a firm believer in that a "game" needing to have fair play rules which puts everyone on an equal standing.  Having a local autonomous government doing what they want in any fashion they see fit isn't something I subscribe to.  They broke the law, and like every citizen, they should be taken to task on the laws they broke like any other citizen anywhere in the world.

As for how the government has dealt with the issue...  I've said time and time again that they've done it in an incorrect manner.  I haven't defended the central government at any moment apart from the moment they've implemented the constitutional laws.