FC Barcelona Discussion

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

I didn't say anything about Neymar. That is Teso's argument. Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it cannot in the future. Unless reality is predetermined there is no way to prove that Ligue 1 won't be the better division one day and to say otherwise is a rejection of causality. It is NOT a fact, it is conjecture extrapolated from the past.

Of course...  If you're going on the argument that all things are possible, then what can I say.

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Of course...  If you're going on the argument that all things are possible, then what can I say.

Because it a silly thing to state. There is a first for everything, if not; nothing would happen. Portugal just won their first international title, following your logic they never would have.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Because it a silly thing to state. There is a first for everything, if not; nothing would happen. Portugal just won their first international title, following your logic they never would have.

Yes, but PSG (for example) winning the Champions League wouldn't say anything about Ligue1.  Red Star Belgrade won it as did Steaua Bucharest and what did that mean?  Plus international football isn't a measuring stick for a league's strength unless the majority of those players are playing in their home league.

The whole argument and debate is a meaningless one though and that was what I was trying to transmit to Teso and his point that Neymar was somehow going to change Ligue1's status.

Anything is possible in life...  But there are five leagues that have dominated European football (La Liga, Serie 'A, English league, Eredivisie) and only three have had cycles, with Italy, Spain and England in the history of European competition.

[RandoEFC+]

15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

But there are five leagues that have dominated European football (La Liga, Serie 'A, English league, Eredivisie).

That's only four mate. Trust me, I'm a maths teacher .

Leagues have peaks and troughs when it comes to their reputation. It's not impossible that Ligue 1 could overtake La Liga but that's a long process and even if PSG win the next five Champions Leagues it doesn't mean French football has overtaken La Liga, it means PSG have overtaken Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich.

If we see France consistently having 3-4 teams reach the quarter-finals of the Champions League, then we'll talk.

[Kowabunga]

@SirBalon. Who knows? Ligue1 slowly building a bundesliga level competition is not a given but it is plausible. Now many French teams have brand new stadiums and it is very possible some teams may edge non-barçamadrid la liga teams in terms of income. The homegrown talent is also there.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kowabunga

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Kowabunga said:

The homegrown talent is also there.

The problem is that they lose most of their homegrown talent mate and there's the issue...  But it's also happening in Spain these days with medium sized clubs and that could provide a dip.  The thing is that with all this money coming into football I can't see too much change because everything tends to balance out.

[El Profesor]

On Neymar, here´s what I think: 

Neymar is, in my opinion, a generational talent. While I really believe in his talent, I think Barcelona can replace him. This is not because I think he is overrated nor anything like that,  but because he never really seemed to truly integrate Barcelona´s style of play. He and Iniesta never had the same understanding Alves and Messi, for example, had. Neymar holds the ball for too long. This is not a problem in Brazil, for example, because he´s the go-to guy, but at Barcelona he slowed the flow and lost possession with no real gain. He was a nice ornment on that team, beatiful but not really essential.

Going to PSG is quite a brave decision, if you ask me. In the end of the day,  he will have to back up his decision and the immense expectations with his feet on the pitch. It won´t be easy.

Staying at Barcelona, at the shadow of Messi would be much more comfortable, but he wanted the spotlight and he will be scrutinized for it. I don´t think money was the main factor, it obviously was a factor but not the main reason of his move, after all he rejected PSG last summer. I really believe he reached a point in his career where he wanted to be the main man at club level. There´s nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. On the contrary, this is the kind of ambition that moves the best athletes, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi for example, and this is what lacked to players like Ronaldinho and Adriano after  a point in their careers. Wanting to shine and having the desire for glory is what moves the best. 

What you can criticize is the fact that he lied when he said he only gave his word to PSG this past week. He definitely dealt on the back of Barcelona. I think he should´ve been honest about his desire to leave. Also, you can question if he´s mature enough to lead a team to a Champions League title. 

I think most Barcelona fans know Neymar can replaced, especially considering the fact they have 222 milllion euros to spend. What really hurts them is the fact that Neymar decided to leave them, because it really goes against their ideas of Barcelona being a special club. It may be to their fans and to some of their players, like Piqué and Iniesta, but for most football fans and players, Barcelona is a traditional, respectable club, but certainly not unique.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by El_Loco

[SirBalon]

57 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

On Neymar, here´s what I think: 

Neymar is, in my opinion, a generational talent. While I really believe in his talent, I think Barcelona can replace him. This is not because I think he is overrated nor anything like that,  but because he never really seemed to truly integrate Barcelona´s style of play. He and Iniesta never had the same understanding Alves and Messi, for example, had. Neymar holds the ball for too long. This is not a problem in Brazil, for example, because he´s the go-to guy, but at Barcelona he slowed the flow and lost possession with no real gain. He was a nice ornment on that team, beatiful but not really essential.

Going to PSG is quite a brave decision, if you ask me. In the end of the day,  he will have to back up his decision and the immense expectations with his feet on the pitch. It won´t be easy.

Staying at Barcelona, at the shadow of Messi would be much more comfortable, but he wanted the spotlight and he will be scrutinized for it. I don´t think money was the main factor, it obviously was a factor but not the main reason of his move, after all he rejected PSG last summer. I really believe he reached a point in his career where he wanted to be the main man at club level. There´s nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. On the contrary, this is the kind of ambition that moves the best athletes, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi for example, and this is what lacked to players like Ronaldinho and Adriano after  a point in their careers. Wanting to shine and having the desire for glory is what moves the best. 

What you can criticize is the fact that he lied when he said he only gave his word to PSG this past week. He definitely dealt on the back of Barcelona. I think he should´ve been honest about his desire to leave. Also, you can question if he´s mature enough to lead a team to a Champions League title. 

I think most Barcelona fans know Neymar can replaced, especially considering the fact they have 222 milllion euros to spend. What really hurts them is the fact that Neymar decided to leave them, because it really goes against their ideas of Barcelona being a special club. It may be to their fans and to some of their players, like Piqué and Iniesta, but for most football fans and players, Barcelona is a traditional, respectable club, but certainly not unique.

 

It's a very well composed post and I enjoyed reading it. There's many things I agree with and a couple I don't, but the main one I don't agree with because of what's been commented from a real Barcelona fan perspective as a large majority is the reason you've given to why they're hurt he went.

They're not exactly hurt per-say... They're pissed off!  The reason they're pissed off is one of the details you put in your post on the lies.  It's because those lies didn't have to be verified by Dani Alves' comments the other day.  It was already known which is why in that Neymar thread you have comments in reference to this and why Asura couldn't understand the reasons behind it.

Plenty of players have left Barça in their prime and of dozens that have done this throughout history, only Figo and now Neymar stick out because they decieved the club and by deceiving the club you are in actual fact deceiving the fans because they're the ones that matter.  Big players like Maradona, Laudrup or Schuster left and the latter two went to Real Madrid and are still highly regarded and loved by the Barça fans.

In many cases in life it's not always what you do, but how you do what you did that you're judged on.

Anyway...  Neymar is history at Barcelona now and even though he was part of a triple winning side (the second triple of Barcelona's history), he will never be remembered as having left a legacy which adds to the whole deal surrounding his deception when he went to PSG.

Edited August 9, 2017 by SirBalon

[Spike]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Yes, but PSG (for example) winning the Champions League wouldn't say anything about Ligue1.  Red Star Belgrade won it as did Steaua Bucharest and what did that mean?  Plus international football isn't a measuring stick for a league's strength unless the majority of those players are playing in their home league.

The whole argument and debate is a meaningless one though and that was what I was trying to transmit to Teso and his point that Neymar was somehow going to change Ligue1's status.

Anything is possible in life...  But there are five leagues that have dominated European football (La Liga, Serie 'A, English league, Eredivisie) and only three have had cycles, with Italy, Spain and England in the history of European competition.

You're aren't even arguing against me. You're so wound up by what Teso is saying you're projecting it onto me because I wager you find me more reasonable! I know realistically French domination isn't likely but I just reject the notion of absolutes. The reason I brought up international football was to pont out your logic is flawed. You said [French football has never dominated, ergo it never will] which would be exactly the same statement as [Portugal has never won a Euro tournament ergo thye never will].

[God is Haaland]

Dembele is yours it seems.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, True Bender said:

Dembele is yours it seems.

Until it happens officially I won't comment.

But how good a signing is it in your opinion which is the one that counts?

I've read various football pundits and past players say he's better than Mbappé. 

[Cicero]

10 minutes ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

that wasnt my point, my point was that barcelona hasnt had stability when it comes to coaches. i dont know why but i think it has to do with the board forcing coaches to strictly set up their system/team to benefit and rack up messi's stats. you heard barto, "Messi the best player ever". let me ask you a question, dont you think barcelona's is more worry about Messi's legacy and trying to make sure he is the best of all time and putting barcelona and the rest of the team aside? imo thats why neymar left, that and greed 

[Cicero]

Ahhh that's great.

Irrational, imbecilic, and ignorant thinking at its finest when someone generalises a group as a whole from the actions of a small number of individuals. 

[Carnivore Chris]

14 hours ago, SirBalon said:

 

Anyway...  Neymar is history at Barcelona now and even though he was part of a triple winning side (the second triple of Barcelona's history), he will never be remembered as having left a legacy which adds to the whole deal surrounding his deception when he went to PSG.

 

He'll never be Rivaldo or Ronaldinho.

[Spike]

17 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

 

He'll never be Rivaldo or Ronaldinho.

Start from the bottom up. He'll never be Ludovic Guilly.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

that wasnt my point, my point was that barcelona hasnt had stability when it comes to coaches. i dont know why but i think it has to do with the board forcing coaches to strictly set up their system/team to benefit and rack up messi's stats. you heard barto, "Messi the best player ever". let me ask you a question, dont you think barcelona's is more worry about Messi's legacy and trying to make sure he is the best of all time and putting barcelona and the rest of the team aside? imo thats why neymar left, that and greed 

Barça has never been about Messi at all.  To think that is to not understand anything about the club at all...  There is a system, Messi was brought up in that system as was Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, Pedro etc... etc...  just to name contemporary players.  He FITS into the system and that's why he may seem like a focus of attention as he is the viaduct to goal opportunities and effectivity in from of goal.  Neymar actually has a weird record of most chances missed in a season (two years ago) in Spain's first division.

1 hour ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

DIE NEYMAR’ 

Sick Barcelona fans wish death on £198million man Neymar after his PSG move… in friendly tribute game against horror plane crash victims Chapecoense

SICK!DISTURBiNG! the worst fans by far, selfish and inconsiderate motherfuckers. la liga should do something about it 

That is sick!  I remember chants at Arsenal hoping Lineker's kid died of leukaemia and effigies of Beckham being hanged outside Upton Park after his stupidity in the World Cup getting himself sent-off when "lashing out" at Diego Simeone.  It's a minority and pre-season events are mostly attended by kids (like the Joan Gamper) which is disturbing and at the same time makes any chanting very noticeable.

20 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

 

He'll never be Rivaldo or Ronaldinho.

I doubt he'll ever be Romario either but all of this is yet to be seen.  He has the talent but his persona isn't made for football which is why Unzué gave him some stern words of advice he didn't like toward the end of the season in training.

Edited August 9, 2017 by SirBalon

[SirBalon]

Some of the heavyweights in the Barcelona squad like Iniesta, Piqué (yes, incredibly, Piqué), Mascherano and Messi want to give Real Madrid a guard of honour in the Supercopa de España game that's to be played soon.  I hope they do do it to be honest because it's a mark of respect.

Edited August 10, 2017 by SirBalon

[Spike]

Is it a guard of honour for Real, or a guard of honour for the players of Real?

[SirBalon]

10 hours ago, Spike said:

Is it a guard of honour for Real, or a guard of honour for the players of Real?

Well for the players obviously...  As they come out of the tunnel for the start of the match.  The latest is that the rest of the team seem to have won over the more veterans and there may not be one.  Long gone are the days of Puyol who wouldn't ask for anyone's opinion and say what needed to be done, point!

[Carnivore Chris]

On 09/08/2017 at 5:44 PM, SirBalon said:

 

I doubt he'll ever be Romario either but all of this is yet to be seen.  He has the talent but his persona isn't made for football which is why Unzué gave him some stern words of advice he didn't like toward the end of the season in training.

 

True and Romario only had 1 proper season at the club as opposed to 4.

 

Neymar is class though and if he stayed for a few more years then I'm sure he would have cemented his own legacy at the club, as he was certainly going in the right direction. His connection with Messi and Suarez is as deadly as anything you'll see, his understanding with the Argentine especially was immense. Him leaving is actually sad in many ways. He had to go in the end, but speaking talent alone, he's a major loss. He brought a lot of excitement to the team with his samba feet and barring he keeps his head on his shoulders and doesn't end up becoming a party animal like some players can, he can certainly go on and help his team win major honours and grab himself a Ballon d'or in the process.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by The Rebel CRS

[Spike]

10 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Well for the players obviously...  As they come out of the tunnel for the start of the match.  The latest is that the rest of the team seem to have won over the more veterans and there may not be one.  Long gone are the days of Puyol who wouldn't ask for anyone's opinion and say what needed to be done, point!

It was a rhetorical question. It was a statement concerning that there is a difference betweeen the two actions.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

It was a rhetorical question. It was a statement concerning that there is a difference betweeen the two actions.

Yeah, well it doesn't look like they're gonna do it now which is sad and a further regression in club ethics under this board. The people that ran this sort of show have now gone from the dressing room unfortunately and nobody has the respect that is required in situations such as these. 

[El Profesor]

On 08/08/2017 at 11:08 PM, SirBalon said:

It's a very well composed post and I enjoyed reading it. There's many things I agree with and a couple I don't, but the main one I don't agree with because of what's been commented from a real Barcelona fan perspective as a large majority is the reason you've given to why they're hurt he went.

They're not exactly hurt per-say... They're pissed off!  The reason they're pissed off is one of the details you put in your post on the lies.  It's because those lies didn't have to be verified by Dani Alves' comments the other day.  It was already known which is why in that Neymar thread you have comments in reference to this and why Asura couldn't understand the reasons behind it.

Plenty of players have left Barça in their prime and of dozens that have done this throughout history, only Figo and now Neymar stick out because they decieved the club and by deceiving the club you are in actual fact deceiving the fans because they're the ones that matter.  Big players like Maradona, Laudrup or Schuster left and the latter two went to Real Madrid and are still highly regarded and loved by the Barça fans.

In many cases in life it's not always what you do, but how you do what you did that you're judged on.

Anyway...  Neymar is history at Barcelona now and even though he was part of a triple winning side (the second triple of Barcelona's history), he will never be remembered as having left a legacy which adds to the whole deal surrounding his deception when he went to PSG.

 

That´s exactly why he had to leave. From a very early age, Neymar was used to being the main man at Santos, the most loved player by fans, media, etc... At Barcelona, I don´t think he was ever truly accepted by a significant part of the fans. 

My only grip with Barcelona fans outrage, is not outrage itself, that´s normal when there´s a big transfer in football, but the fact that some fans deny the fact that there are very reasonable factors that led to his exit. It is clear to me that it is not only about money. At Barcelona not only Messi is the main man, but also Iniesta is the responsible for creating in the zone where he plays. Few people noticed that, but Neymar and Iniesta never really had a great understanding on the left, and I always felt both players ended up being sacrificed. Neymar is at his best when you give full autonomy to ditacte the pace and create, like he does for Tite. I felt like he needed to leave, dude is already 25, and with his talent, I think he is right  take the risk to try to lead a team. I always thought United was the club for him but only PSG would pay the clause, so it is what it is. 

Like I said, there are lots to be criticized about Neymar, but man noone can deny this was a very gutsy move. He will have to back that fee, the expectations and the pressure with his feet, on the pitch. In that sense, I see a lot of courage, ambition and confidence, something that lacked to some of the best brazilian players in recent years.

You mentioned it, but I´m curious to see how Neymar will go down in Barcelona history. I think that after retires and after everyone forgave what happened during this summer, he will be viewed in a more positive light. In the end of the day, it´s impossible to deny that the he formed one of the best attacking trios ever seen.

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

 

That´s exactly why he had to leave. From a very early age, Neymar was used to being the main man at Santos, the most loved player by fans, media, etc... At Barcelona, I don´t think he was ever truly accepted by a significant part of the fans. 

My only grip with Barcelona fans outrage, is not outrage itself, that´s normal when there´s a big transfer in football, but the fact that some fans deny the fact that there are very reasonable factors that led to his exit. It is clear to me that it is not only about money. At Barcelona not only Messi is the main man, but also Iniesta is the responsible for creating in the zone where he plays. Few people noticed that, but Neymar and Iniesta never really had a great understanding on the left, and I always felt both players ended up being sacrificed. Neymar is at his best when you give full autonomy to ditacte the pace and create, like he does for Tite. I felt like he needed to leave, dude is already 25, and with his talent, I think he is right  take the risk to try to lead a team. I always thought United was the club for him but only PSG would pay the clause, so it is what it is. 

Like I said, there are lots to be criticized about Neymar, but man noone can deny this was a very gutsy move. He will have to back that fee, the expectations and the pressure with his feet, on the pitch. In that sense, I see a lot of courage, ambition and confidence, something that lacked to some of the best brazilian players in recent years.

You mentioned it, but I´m curious to see how Neymar will go down in Barcelona history. I think that after retires and after everyone forgave what happened during this summer, he will be viewed in a more positive light. In the end of the day, it´s impossible to deny that the he formed one of the best attacking trios ever seen.

Mate...  He didn't join Eibar (the silly joke he played before all the rumours exploded)...  He joined and was dying to join Barça, a team full of top players in almost every position.  It's difficult to be the main man in something like that unless you're a genius and those don't come along very often.  He knew where he was going, he knew where he had elected to go!  Infact the only other option was Real Madrid and even there he'd have had to contend with other top players especially one who's even more heady when it comes to anything that may be contemplating taking his crown at the club let alone steal any limelight that could damage his target of the Ballon d'Or.

[El Profesor]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Mate...  He didn't join Eibar (the silly joke he played before all the rumours exploded)...  He joined and was dying to join Barça, a team full of top players in almost every position.  It's difficult to be the main man in something like that unless you're a genius and those don't come along very often.  He knew where he was going, he knew where he had elected to go!  Infact the only other option was Real Madrid and even there he'd have had to contend with other top players especially one who's even more heady when it comes to anything that may be contemplating taking his crown at the club let alone steal any limelight that could damage his target of the Ballon d'Or.

But don´t you agree that a significant part of Barcelona fans never really liked Neymar in first place? I´ve always had that impression reading the impression of Barcelona fans. I think his play style never really pleased more traditionalists culés.