FC Barcelona Discussion

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

this is a bit on the political side.

with this volatile situation in Catalonia.    For sure 90% of catalonia will vote for their independence come october 1 ... what will happen to FC Barcelona ???

Who told you 90% of Catalans will vote for independence?  It's actually fairly even split with infact remaining being the more inclined to come out in the end.

All the same...  They won't be able to play in La Liga under the present constitutional rules and unless they're changed, they'll have to look for a new home if independence were to hypothetically be activated.  I for one would ignore them if that happens and I'll look at my options after then.

[bozziovai]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Who told you 90% of Catalans will vote for independence?  It's actually fairly even split with infact remaining being the more inclined to come out in the end.

All the same...  They won't be able to play in La Liga under the present constitutional rules and unless they're changed, they'll have to look for a new home if independence were to hypothetically be activated.  I for one would ignore them if that happens and I'll look at my options after then.

well sorry but i only read the news and most them are confident that majority will opt for an independence.   been reading the effects of the break up on an economical stand point ..    but you're the one who's in spain, so, you're more reliable.

[Guest]

On 20/9/2017 at 8:50 AM, Cicero said:

Not convinced at all by Brazil. 

Reckon they will get spanked by either Germany, France, or Spain 

I don't think they will be spanked. They play outrageously good football. I do agree though that Germany and Spain are above them right now.

The thing is, they still have to prove it in the tournament. Getting 9 wins in a row in the South American qualifiers means you are a top team, but Argentina also dominated in 2002 and went out in the groups. Its a whole different mentality in the tournament than qualifying. You also have less games to get it right.

I think Spain have the talent and depth, while Germany have a better starting XI overall, but with the latter what I see is them playing at 20% against the smaller teams and winning. When they need to, they play well. That's how they won in 2014. They also have a new player who I could see becoming the best striker in the world in a few years: Timo Werner.

France won't beat Brazil though. I'm sure of it. They are a bunch of individuals and thats it.

[Guest]

As a South American, I can't see the continent winning another World Cup yet. The teams with the best chance are Brazil and Chile in my opinion. Chile might not even qualify, and I can't see Argentina doing anything as I see a dressing room problem there. Colombia have been awful compared to 2014, Uruguay I can't see making it past the groups and should Peru qualify, we don't have a chance of winning it. I still think we'll have at least 2 or 3 South Americans in the quarters as they usually do, but actually win it I only see Brazil with a proper chance and I don't think they'll do it this time. I think the 6th star for them will be 2022 when some of their younger stars are more developed.

[SirBalon]

23 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

well sorry but i only read the news and most them are confident that majority will opt for an independence.   been reading the effects of the break up on an economical stand point ..    but you're the one who's in spain, so, you're more reliable.

Cannabis told you how it is mate!  Although I don’t have the chippy anymore. 

Anyway... It’s totally off topic ajd very political. But seeing as Spanish football goes along those lines, I can answer you.

Indeed there is at the moment a big uprising amongst the people of Catalonia. But not only there, but also in many parts of Spain because here we’re talking democracy and the will of the people which is something I completely stand by.

The poll inquests done over time suggest that a majority (if one at all) would favour remaining within the Spanish state. But we can’t underestimate everything that’s been going on in the past months with the way the central government led by Mariano Rajoy have been doing things and in general dealing with the issues in Catalonia.

Because of that last paragraph I wouldn’t know or be able to predict an outcome. But rest assured that ot would throw Spain and the whole of Europe into disarray. 

However... The important factor here is football and as things stand, Barcelona would automatically be expelled from La Liga because of how the constitution is set. The constitution is infact what the government are basing itself on to brand any seperatist referendum as illegal and they’re right by law although wrong ethically. Barça and all the Catalan clubs would have to find a league to accept them (France have volunteered) or make do with a mini league of their own which would eventually destroy FC Barcelona as would Ligue 1. 

[HK85]

Free Catalunya. 

[bozziovai]

26 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Cannabis told you how it is mate!  Although I don’t have the chippy anymore. 

Anyway... It’s totally off topic ajd very political. But seeing as Spanish football goes along those lines, I can answer you.

Indeed there is at the moment a big uprising amongst the people of Catalonia. But not only there, but also in many parts of Spain because here we’re talking democracy and the will of the people which is something I completely stand by.

The poll inquests done over time suggest that a majority (if one at all) would favour remaining within the Spanish state. But we can’t underestimate everything that’s been going on in the past months with the way the central government led by Mariano Rajoy have been doing things and in general dealing with the issues in Catalonia.

Because of that last paragraph I wouldn’t know or be able to predict an outcome. But rest assured that ot would throw Spain and the whole of Europe into disarray. 

However... The important factor here is football and as things stand, Barcelona would automatically be expelled from La Liga because of how the constitution is set. The constitution is infact what the government are basing itself on to brand any seperatist referendum as illegal and they’re right by law although wrong ethically. Barça and all the Catalan clubs would have to find a league to accept them (France have volunteered) or make do with a mini league of their own which would eventually destroy FC Barcelona as would Ligue 1. 

yeah, i've read that the Spanish government has declared that this Poll is illegal and cops are confiscating stuffs.

but catalunya will still go on with the Polls, would Spain respect the votings ?? or will it be another failed attempt for independence ??

[bozziovai]

59 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

He actually runs a chippy in the back streets of London mate, he's just got some mad delusion that he's Spanish... 

oh .. he's a bloke not a hombre   

[SirBalon]

37 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

yeah, i've read that the Spanish government has declared that this Poll is illegal and cops are confiscating stuffs.

but catalunya will still go on with the Polls, would Spain respect the votings ?? or will it be another failed attempt for independence ??

Well the Spanish constitutional courts yesterday declared the referendum illegal. So under that ruling and considering what this government is all about, they won’t respect anything that comes out of it.

I’ll say this though... The central government are shooting themselves in the foot. Had they accepted it two years ago, it’d be done and dusted now because the known majority then was to remain. Another issue the Spanish government have is that if it were to go through and voted for independence. Then other regions with as much if not even more right would go for it too. 

[bozziovai]

9 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Well the Spanish constitutional courts yesterday declared the referendum illegal. So under that ruling and considering what this government is all about, they won’t respect anything that comes out of it.

I’ll say this though... The central government are shooting themselves in the foot. Had they accepted it two years ago, it’d be done and dusted now because the known majority then was to remain. Another issue the Spanish government have is that if it were to go through and voted for independence. Then other regions with as much if not even more right would go for it too. 

yeah.   many will follow suit and spain will crack open and fall into ruins.

so, basically, all this hassle and demonstrations and elections/votings will be all for naught ??   What's next for the people of Catalunya after october 1 ???

[SirBalon]

15 hours ago, bozziovai said:

so, basically, all this hassle and demonstrations and elections/votings will be all for naught ??   What's next for the people of Catalunya after october 1 ???

Well I don't think it's going to go away if that's what the government are thinking!

The constitution would have to be amended for starters I reckon!

But in general I'm not sure what's going to happen to be honest as I barely have time to really go deep into news like I once used to due to family life hahaha.  But I'm sure @Kowabunga knows a lot more about all of this as it's very complicated and can fill us in if he has time.

Edited September 22, 2017 by SirBalon

[Carnivore Chris]

 

 

 

[Carnivore Chris]

On 17/09/2017 at 1:58 PM, 11Neymar Ousmane Dembélé11 said:

Coutinho this, Coutinho that. So sick of him already. We coulda had Dybala for 120 million euros. That's a steal in today's market.

 

 

Personally I wouldn't bother with Countinho now(especially not for his ridiculously overpriced fee) as there is no need for desperation anymore, there would be loads of time next summer to address whatever problems.

 

Not to mention, who needs him?

 

[True Blue]

After Real beat them twice in the super cup i felt this would be a shit year for Barcelona. Messi seriously stepped up in the absence of Neymar and is on a hot streak.

Hope he ends up in jail 

[Cicero]

Not like Messi needed Neymar to be at his best. 

[Guest]

I can defend the credible sources here in Peru and will to the very end, but I know the most vende humos and one of those vende humos just reported Claudio Pizarro to Barcelona as dembeles replacement.

Dembeles replacement in the training ground with a bathroom cleaning job added into it I suppose.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Guest

[Spike]

Haha, I just realised that if I have kids with my wife they'll be about 1/64th Catalan.

[Kowabunga]

But

13 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Well I don't think it's going to go away if that's what the government are thinking!

The constitution would have to be amended for starters I reckon!

But in general I'm not sure what's going to happen to be honest as I barely have time to really go deep into news like I once used to due to family life hahaha.  But I'm sure @Kowabunga knows a lot more about all of this as it's very complicated and can fill us in if he has time.

 

Gendarmerie has seized more than 10 million ballots.

The ballot boxes are still on the run.

The envelopes to be sent to the citizens that should be in the ballot tables have been seized.

The web about the referendum has been closed and re-opened several times. The Catalan president twits about how to use proxies to evade ip blocks.

 

Assange twits about Tianammen, get into feuds with Pérez-Reverte. Assange even gets into a feud with the Spanish TheOnion.

 

A group of guardias civiles taking judicial evidence has spent a night in a building because an angry mob did not let them exit a building. The very same angry mob destroyed their cars.

 

Despite all the seizures   the Catalan Government says they have a plan B (and C, D) in advance to celebrate the voting.

There are talks about a general strike in Catalonia for 3 October.

Banderetes everywhere.

Spanish police forces are gathering in THIS CRUISE in the port of Barcelona:

 

 

 

There are talks about 13000 national policemen and gendarmerie from the rest of Spain in Catalonia at the height of the thing (in normal conditions national police presence is minimal in Catalonia).

The command of the Catalan regional police (Mossos d'Esquadra) is said to be "seditious", depending on whom you ask. You can never know but they have been somewhat passive at enforcing the law. There are around 17000 mossos. Many wonder if using the Law of National Security the Spanish Home Office may take away from the Generalitat the control of the Mossos.

A magistrate has asked for the arrest of two minions of the molt honorable Vice President, the inefable "I am a good man" Oriol Junqueras.

After being handed the possibility of paying a hefty fine the electoral "junta" has dissolved like sissies.

The official gazette of Catalonia has published the veredict of the Constitutional Court on the two laws passed by the Catalan Parliament being unconstitutional.

If something goes wrong there could be literally hondonadas de ostias.

https://www.cuatro.com/noticias/espana/joan-tarda-estudiantes-republica-catalana-universidad-barcelona-referendum-independencia-cataluna-arenga_2_2439705240.html

The only sure thing is that angry people are not going to go away.

What a time to be alive!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Kowabunga

[SirBalon]

14 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

But

 

Gendarmerie has seized more than 10 million ballots.

The ballot boxes are still on the run.

The envelopes to be sent to the citizens that should be in the ballot tables have been seized.

The web about the referendum has been closed and re-opened several times. The Catalan president twits about how to use proxies to evade ip blocks.

Assange twits about Tianammen, get into feuds with Pérez-Reverte.

A group of guardias civiles taking judicial evidence has spent a night in a building because an angry mob did not let them exit a building. The very same angry mob destroyed their cars.

Despite all the seizures   the Catalan Government says they have a plan B (and C, D) in advance to celebrate the voting.

There are talks about a general strike in Catalonia for 3 October.

Banderetes everywhere.

Spanish police forces are gathering in THIS CRUISE in the port of Barcelona:

 

 

 

There are talks about 13000 national policemen and gendarmerie from the rest of Spain in Catalonia at the height of the thing (in normal conditions national police presence is minimal in Catalonia).

The command of the Catalan regional police (Mossos d'Esquadra) is said to be "seditious", depending on whom you ask. You can never know but they have been somewhat passive at enforcing the law. There are around 17000 mossos. Many wonder if using the Law of National Security the Spanish Home Office may take away from the Generalitat the control of the Mossos.

A magistrate has asked for the arrest of two minions of the molt honorable Vice President, the inefable "I am a good man" Oriol Junqueras.

After being handed the possibility of paying a hefty fine the electoral "junta" has dissolved like sissies.

The official gazette of Catalonia has published the veredict of the Constitutional Court on the two laws passed by the Catalan Parliament being unconstitutional.

If something goes wrong there could be literally hondonadas de ostias.

https://www.cuatro.com/noticias/espana/joan-tarda-estudiantes-republica-catalana-universidad-barcelona-referendum-independencia-cataluna-arenga_2_2439705240.html

The only sure thing is that angry people are not going to go away.

What a time to be alive!

They underestimate the power of people and from there, people are easily led. Mobs are easy to activate but then difficult to make them come to their senses.

Like I’ve said from the beginning... The Spanish governemnt over two years ago should’ve come to an agreement on this and it would’ve all sailed away in a slightly turbulent wind. Now it’s a gathering storm about to turn into a nightmare. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by SirBalon

[Spike]

@SirBalon @Kowabunga

What do you fellas believe would happen to Spanish national team? Would players of Catalonian descent choose between the two nations [if secession occurs]? What would happen with players like Andres Iniesta; whom aren't Catalan but have appeared for the 'unofficial' Catalan team? Would the Spanish FA block current internationals Spanish from appearing for Catalonia? Would it have to be arbitrated by UEFA/FIFA? There are also issues for players like Balde Keita.

I could understand how Pays Basque would differentiate between Basque and non-Basque but the lines seem a lot blurrier for Catalan/Spanish.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

What do you fellas believe would happen to Spanish national team? Would players of Catalonian descent choose between the two nations [if secession occurs]?

The same thing that happened to that famous and brilliant Yugoslav team in the early 90s mate.  I remember it vividly and they were fantastic!

This next piece I'll post on that great side will explain a bit on that.

YUGOSLAVIA IN THE 1990S: THE WONDER-TEAM THAT NEVER WAS

In 1991, the great Red Star Belgrade of Savićević, Prosinečki and Pančev won the European Cup, defeating a Marseille team featuring stars such as Jean-Pierre Papin, Abedi Pele and Chris Waddle. In terms of football in the Balkans, it is quite probably their finest hour. In the meantime, their country was tearing itself apart as a result of centuries of ethnic and religious tensions.

The issues began in Slovenia, although in reality the Yugoslav War – what became an umbrella term for the wars in the Balkans throughout the 1990s – was almost inevitable when Josip Broz Tito died in 1980.

To appreciate the war in Yugoslavia, it must be understood that under Tito any potential nationalism in Yugoslavia had been ruthlessly repressed following the ascent to power of the communists following World War Two. As a result, Tito had held together the turbulent countries in the Balkans through his policy of ‘Brotherhood and Unity’. With the death of Tito, the glue that held the constituent nations of Yugoslavia was gone, and cracks quickly began to appear.

It was in the late 1980s that Slobodan Milošević made his ascent to power. In 1987, Milošević was sent to Kosovo in order to dispel a dispute between Serbs and Albanians. During a meeting with local leaders, a commotion occurred outside, and a visibly nervous Milošević went to deal with the crowd. When Serbs told Milošević that they had been beaten by the police – Serb leaders in Kosovo have admitted that they were the ones who began the disruption – Milošević responded with: “You will not be beaten again.” This one moment created a myth behind Milošević and helped ignite Serbian nationalism. By 1989, Milošević was President of Serbia, and the most powerful man in Yugoslavia.

Meanwhile in Croatia, a powerful independence movement had begun, spurred on by their own forms of nationalism. During the Croatian elections of 1990, the pro-independence candidate – and leader of the HDZ – Franjo Tuđman was elected as President, bringing the Croatians directly into conflict with Serbia. By 1991, the Croatian War of Independence would begin – a war that would essentially be the Croatian half of the Yugoslav war.

Matters then began to accelerate, and it was also in 1991 that Slovenia left Yugoslavia, beginning the Ten Day War. As the Slovenes attempted to move towards independence, the Yugoslav army – largely led by Serbia, and therefore Milošević – entered into conflict with Slovenia. The war was brought to an end by negotiation, but by 1992 Slovenia would be officially recognised as an independent country, no longer a Yugoslav state.

As the Croatian War of Independence developed, ethnic tensions from within Bosnia and Herzegovina blew up and Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Serbs, and Bosniak Muslims all were at war with each other. The fighting was barbaric on all sides, with a large majority of the horrors and war crimes in the Yugoslav war being perpetrated in Bosnia, and by the end of the war in 1995 with the signing of a peace treaty, Yugoslavia as an idea to combine all Slavic states into one country, was dead.

Of course, the countries would continue to splinter after the Dayton Agreement, leading to the current independent states of Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. In a footballing sense, however – never to trivialise the horrific actions and effects of the wars in Yugoslavia – the major tragedy was the splintering that occurred in the early 1990s, and particularly the independence of Croatia. It quite possibly robbed football of one of the greatest international teams the world would have ever seen.

In 1987, Yugoslavia won the FIFA World Youth Championship held in Chile. Originally, the team itself had been sent solely to make up the numbers – a number of key players such as Aleksandar Đorđević, Igor Berecko, Dejan Vukićević, Igor Pejović, Seho Sabotić, and Boban Babunski were either injured or suspended, and Siniša Mihajlović, Vladimir Jugović and Alen Bokšić were told they would gain more by playing in the Yugoslav First League. Furthermore, Red Star decided that they wanted Robert Prosinečki for a vital cup tie and attempted to have him return home. After FIFA’s ruling that Prosinečki was to stay, he became one of the players of the tournament.

However, this was no one-man team. Prosinečki was also aided by players such as Zvonimir Boban, Davor Šuker, Robert Jarni, and Predrag Mijatović. Defying all expectations from Yugoslav officials, the young stars easily finished top of a group that featured Chile, Australia and Togo.

As was commonplace with most Yugoslavian sides, it was a team of character, and journalists identified that the side realised – after growing particularly fond of the nightlife in the capital – they would remain in Santiago if they topped their group.

In the quarter-finals they faced the mighty Brazil – ironic, since Yugoslavians have previously been referred to as the Brazilians of Europe – and defeated them 2-1 through Mijatović and Prosinečk, going through to face East Germany in the semis. Once again, East Germany were dispatched 2-1 in the semi-finals with goals from Igor Štimac and Šuker.

West Germany were beaten on penalties – much like Red Star defeating Marseille in the later European Cup triumph – in the final. At their age group, Yugoslavia had the best footballing side on Earth. However, as a nation, Yugoslavia never reaped the benefits.

Naturally, had the country stayed together, you would assume that the key members of the World Youth Championship-winning side would have become full members of the Yugoslavian national team sometime around the build-up to the 1994 World Cup, where they would be 25 or 26 and approaching the peak of their careers.

When you consider that they would be added to a cast boasting names such as Savićević, Darko Pančev, Mihajlović, Stojković and Katanec, it is perhaps a footballing tragedy that they were never allowed to co-exist. Indeed, Katanec has himself said that had the country held itself together and united once again, the football side “would have crushed the world”.  Imagine a midfield of Boban, Prosinečki, Savićević and Stojković providing for a strikeforce of any of Pančev, Bokšić and Šuker. Creative and majestic, and undoubtedly fluid and exciting to watch.

When it is considered that Yugoslavia qualified for the quarter-finals of the World Cup in 1990 without several of these names – and those that were involved such as Šuker and Prosinečki were below the age of 25 – it is incredible to think of what could have been. But then, that idea of ‘what could have been’ largely surrounds football in the Balkans after the collapse of Yugoslavia. What’s more, no former Yugoslavian nation even took part in the 1992 European Championships or the finals of the 1994 World Cup in the United States.

To look at the true potential of what this special generation of Yugoslavian football could have become, the only evidence we have to look at is the 1998 World Cup in France. It is well-remembered that Croatia – then competing in their first finals – finished in third place, defeating the Netherlands in the third-place play-off with a team containing Prosinečki, Boban, Jarni, Bokšić and Šuker. It is less well-remembered, however, that Yugoslavia – effectively just Serbia & Montenegro – made it through to the knockout rounds before being beaten by eventual semi-finalists Holland, with a squad boasting Dragan Stojković, Predrag Mijatović, Siniša Mihajlović and Dejan Savićević. Yugoslavia finished tenth in France, meaning that both the third and tenth best teams in the world were – for many – from the same country: Yugoslavia.

However, some of those star players were on the wane by the 1998 World Cup. In reality, 1998 wasn’t the best year for Yugoslavian football. Savićević in particular, at his peak one of the best attacking midfielders in world football, only played two games for Yugoslavia in France. Another great attacking midfielder, Dragan Stojković, was also coming towards the twilight of his international career, making his last appearance in 2001.

In addition, Darko Pančev, the hero of the European Cup triumph for Red Star, was playing in the Macedonian national team around this time and, as a result, never even played in the 1998 World Cup. Pančev’s peak was in the early to mid-1990s, even despite his poor spell at Inter Milan, which was largely not his fault, and much like the rest of his generation, his peak would have coincided with the 1994 World Cup in America.

The 1994 World Cup itself is not held up as one of the great World Cups, and although Italy and Brazil were teams worthy of being in the World Cup final, the semi-finalists were shocks in Bulgaria – led by Barcelona’s Hristo Stoichkov – and Sweden, and when the national teams of the constituent nations of Yugoslavia are combined around the 1994 World Cup, you have a large number of great players either at or approaching their peak. Just to list them, here are some of the names that would have been selected for the 1994 World Cup had Yugoslavia held itself together: Zvonimir Boban, Davor Šuker, Robert Jarni, Predrag Mijatovic, Dragan Stojković, Dejan Savićević, Darko Pančev, Robert Prosinečki, Refik Šabanadžović, Alen Bokšić, Siniša Mihajlović and Vladimir Jugović.

Difficult to believe that they wouldn’t have at least made the semi-finals isn’t it? When you think that Sweden and Bulgaria were the third and fourth-placed teams respectively, you have to think that a 1994 Yugoslavia team would have at least challenged them.

However, we will never know, and again thoughts of ‘what if’ surrounds sport in Yugoslavia towards its collapse. Much like how the basketball team of Dražen Petrović and Vlade Divac never fulfilled its potential, we will never quite know how good the football team could have been. The only clues we have are the separate performances in the 1998 World Cup and the individual performances of the key players around this time. When you examine the careers that Boban, Šuker, Mihajlović, Stojković, Pančev, Prosinečki and Jugović had – as well as the combined brilliance of several of those players at Red Star Belgrade – it is almost impossible not to think that they could have won the 1994 World Cup.

We can only think and dream. That sentence embodies Yugoslavia and the football team that the entire world missed out on. It would have been amazing.

 

 

Catalan players (players born in Catalonia including those of parents originally from elsewhere) that have played for Spain and then hypothetical separation of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Spain will end up playing for Catalonia because they'd be stupid not to. The only people arguing against them taking that option are the problem people in society even though they don't see it.  All the talk about staying united and all that means absolutely nothing for the important individuals in all of this which are those that feel it's important their region of the state of Spain should achieve independence.  They are the ones that should feel otherwise and the questions should be asked as to why they feel like they feel and stop dictating any sort of sentimental or political nonsense....  I'm swaying off line on what you asked.

2 hours ago, Spike said:

What would happen with players like Andres Iniesta; whom aren't Catalan but have appeared for the 'unofficial' Catalan team?

Even though he's repeated a million times how much he owes Catalonia and how he has a strong part of him that also feels Catalan...  He is Spanish through and through!  He feels Spanish and loves his country.  You can have both things because I have them and feel the same was although in my case it's different.  I was born in Britain, my parents are Galician and Galicia is a part of Spain.  Galicia also has its extremely strong identity...  They also have a movement for independence on though not as vocal as Catalonia's.  But I feel Galician first and foremost but the part of me that also feels Spanish is strong enough for me to never opt to vote for a hypothetical separation of Galicia from Spain.  Although were it to do so against my better judgement, if I were a footballer, I would play for Galicia and that's final.  No matter on my mixed sentiments, that's my blood and where I am fundamentally from.  Iniesta is Spanish...  You get fewer places more Spanish in Spain that Albacete deep in Castilla La Mancha.

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Would the Spanish FA block current internationals Spanish from appearing for Catalonia?

The answer is in the Yugoslav bit for this one.  Nobody would have any jurisdiction over the choice a human can make where the choice wasn't once there to be able to opt for it.  It's there now and everything else in the rules is scrapped.

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Would it have to be arbitrated by UEFA/FIFA?

In theory yes, although they know they can't dip their corrupted sticky fingers in it and would accept any choice made by individuals who now belong to a state that didn't exist previously.

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I could understand how Pays Basque would differentiate between Basque and non-Basque but the lines seem a lot blurrier for Catalan/Spanish.

Far be it from me to accuse or label anyone anything, but here's where I separate from it all in the sense of my support for anything.  Ethics leave the room at this point under my sentiments.

The province of Barcelona is mainly made up of immigrants.  Migrants not only from various parts of the world, but even more so from Spain itself because it has forever been an affluent part of the state.  There's always been more options and more chances of succeeding in Barcelona than anywhere else in Spain (obviously Madrid being on a par) and during the 40s, 50s, 60s and so on, many migrated there especially from the deep south in Andalusia.  This is the funniest part for me personally...  These (the descendants of those that emigrated from other parts of Spain) TEND to be the most fervent separatists of them all.  It's as if they have a point to prove with their ultra Castilian surname and they are hard to listen to.  It's almost like listening to a Banshee squeal where you cover your ears in utter shock and terror.  There is a very marked Catalan lineage which you tend to find more in the northern reaches of Catalonia, but it isn't massive and is fairly split in the whole region.  Nothing is more identifiable biologically in Spain than a Basque!  THAT for me is one of the biggest signs of identity and not a bloody language which you get in most countries for varying reasons.  Too much emphasis is put on language in these cases and for me at least that is nowhere near enough, it only scratches the surface to other more important factors.

Anyhow...  That's the way things would turn out and if they do achieve independence which I find difficult to believe even now (I found it impossible at one point even with the referendum being permitted) that it could occur, if it did, then every right anyone else has anywhere in any nation should also be afforded to them and NOBODY should ever make a footstep against it.

[Spike]

@SirBalon IMaybe it is just a difference if opinion but i've always thought language to be the ultimate divider. Put three people in a room; two white and one black. The black and one of the whites speak the same language, while the other white is completely unintelligible to them. Who will get along the most?

[The Artful Dodger]

Yugoslavia is not a great comparison with Spain, Yugoslavia had ethnic and religious hatreds at its core, it was only kept running by the strict rule of Tito and collapsed when he died. Catalunya is an odd one, there is definitely a distinct identity, as all regions of Spain have, but the nationalist movement seems to be mainly a movement of the bourgeois and privileged (i.e brats like Pique). Catalunya is an immensely wealthy region and I find the independence movement to be quite a selfish movement, certainly in comparison to other modern nationalism like in Scotland which is primarily a left-wing phenomenom.

That being said, who the hell am I to judge, if they can function as a country and that's what the majority want then so be it.

Edited September 23, 2017 by The Artful Dodger

[SirBalon]

8 hours ago, Spike said:

@SirBalon IMaybe it is just a difference if opinion but i've always thought language to be the ultimate divider. Put three people in a room; two white and one black. The black and one of the whites speak the same language, while the other white is completely unintelligible to them. Who will get along the most?

It only scratches the surface mate, but it is very important because people make it important and use communication as more of a weapon than a tool that is their to unite.

There are many factors and you're right that our first association is communication in a hypothetical room full of people.  But there are also arguments for many other sociological phenomenons that run deeper like colour (and other race differentials) and religion.  How far can we go back in time with history showing us arguments and wars against one another for reasons beyond language.  Infact peoples from differing kingdoms with their own regional dialects would come together due to other cultural similarities so as to fight against a group that was more different to them?  The truth is that humans are eternally on the constant lookout for division rather than unity in every single walk of life.  Even contemporary sociological politicised beliefs are used to separate "us from them and them from us" as the ultimate righteous goal and belief.  Today in Western society we have more diversification than ever because not only do we have multi-cultural hives in major advanced cities, but that then we have ideological ones that situate themselves on one side of a phantom fence so as to create more division.  Humans are like this and have been forever...  The difference?  The foundations of the reasons for division have changed but the goal remains the same.

Persuasion is achieved by the speaker's personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible. We believe good men more fully and more readily than others: this is true generally whatever the question is, and absolutely true where exact certainty is impossible and opinions are divided.
ARISTOTLE

A house divided against itself cannot stand.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN

Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division; and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts.
JOSEPH STALIN

 

5 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Yugoslavia is not a great comparison with Spain, Yugoslavia had ethnic and religious hatreds at its core, it was only kept running by the strict rule of Tito and collapsed when he died. Catalunya is an odd one, there is definitely a distinct identity, as all regions of Spain have, but the nationalist movement seems to be mainly a movement of the bourgeois and privileged (i.e brats like Pique). Catalunya is an immensely wealthy region and I find the independence movement to be quite a selfish movement, certainly in comparison to other modern nationalism like in Scotland which is primarily a left-wing phenomenom.

That being said, who the hell am I to judge, if they can function as a country and that's what the majority want then so be it.

I'm not comparing the former Yugoslavia with Spain at all.  Infact they couldn't be more different with other issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.  The reason I used the Yugoslavian example was to answer Spike's question on whether or not footballers that had played for a previously unified region or state, if they could then play for a newly formed nation.

We have the FIFA rules where if a footballer has already played at official level for a particular country, then he will never be permitted to change in the future.  But that doesn't include if a new nation with borders appears and those footballers from said new nation now want to represent their country.

As you touch upon though, indeed Spain is a state made up out of regions that are extremely different and diverse.  Not only do we have various different recognised languages within the state (not dialects, but languages), but also almost completely different cultures where the differences filter all the way down to diet, food and styles of living that aren't even connected to the difference in wealth.

One thing I definitely agree with you 100% on is that the Catalan movement is indeed a bourgeois fuelled instigator.  It actually goes even deeper than that because it's almost something that started off as a game and has now gotten out of hand and some are disassociating themselves from the initial argument.  The main problem at the moment is the "intellectual" movement not only in Catalunya, but in Spain itself.  But then again the intellectual movement and all of its nerd associates are a major part of the problem in every country in Western Society.  They should be grouped up and moved to their own island where they can invent their own scummy little feuds while wearing ethically manufactured clothing...  They are a big problem!  They don't base anything on a greater good for people, they just search for something new to turn into a big evil.

Edited September 23, 2017 by SirBalon

[SirBalon]

CAMP NOU 60 YEARS OLD TODAY

 

60 years ago today on the 24th of September 1957 coinciding with the patron saint of the city of Barcelona 'La Mercé', FC Barcelona inaugurated the Camp Nou after moving from their previous ground Les Corts.  The game that was played that day was against a combined XI of football WWII war veterans that names themselves The Warsaw Squad which ended 4-2 to Barça and the first ever scorer at the Camp Not was Eulogio Martínez.  The architect of the iconic stadium was a local architect called Francesc Mitjans Miró, a cousin of the then FC Barcelona president, Josep Soteras Mauri.

The initial quote on the cost of the Camp Nou was valued at 66,620,000 Pesetas (€4.4m) and an 18 month limit was put on the building of the football arena.  Just as occurs today, it took longer, 3 years and the cost went considerably higher to 288,000,000 pesetas (€1,7m) which provoked that the entity went into a massive debt and a subsequent depression at the club for over a decade.  The original capacity (pre the first remodelling of the Camp Nou) stood at 93,000 spectators and the pitch dimensions originally were of 107x72 metres (today the pitch dimensions stand at 105x68 metres).

 

In 1982 the first remodelling of the stadium was commissioned and the Camp Nou's capacity rose by 22,150 spectators which took the full capacity to 115,000 and made it the biggest stadium in Europe and the second biggest football stadium in the world at the time after Brazil's Maracana.  That same year the stadium was used for the inaugural game of the 1982 World Cup which was held in Spain and was also the venue for the 1992 Olympics (held in Barcelona) for the football final which saw Spain beat Poland to win the Gold Medal.

an original ticket to watch FC Barcelona play at the Camp Nou in 1957

In 1994 it was the year UEFA and FIFA declared that all professional stadiums should be all seater and subsequently the stadium capacity went from 115,000 down to 99,500.  If one of the main reasons why the Camp Nou was commissioned to be built for the move from Les Corts was so because of Ladislao Kubala (the Hungarian footballer of the period) which attracted football fans from all over Spain, today Messi can be said to be a part of the reason why FC Barcelona have commissioned a total remodelling of the Camp Nou to bring it into the 21st Century and make it an out and out elite stadium.  The limit date has been set for 2022 to be finished but as we saw what happened when it was built, it could take a tad longer.

Edited September 24, 2017 by SirBalon