Racism in Russia

[Dave]

I've probably created a thread on this as I'm a content creating whore but given how the issue has become a discussion point over the last week, and the likelihood that it will happen during the tournament, I think it's deserving if it's own thread.

This week Danny Rose has quite openly talked about his battle with mental illness, the experiences he went through in Serbia, how he felt let down by the governing authorities, and how he's told his family not to travel to what may be his only World Cup. It was a good, yet a sad read.

Derek Boateng has made comments about what it was like to be a footballer in Russia. He said it's not the abuse on the field that's the difficult thing, it's having to adapt to it in your life. It's little things like walking to the post box with people barging past you, looking at your funny, or talking in Russian behind your back.

I know it's a card used unjustly at times to promote this notion that managers are not given an opportunity based on the colour of your skin, but Fifa really need to take a look at themselves here. Infantino has said referees can stop matches if racist chanting occurs, but we all know that won't happen with the money sponsors have ploughed in to every game. We have players getting fines for wearing certain brands that are similar to those in relation to racist chanting.

With Russia getting the World Cup in the first place, it's almost a massive fuck you in relation to the issue. Hopefully before Qatar we move away from a culture of giving out thirty grand fines for a cat running on the pitch and hit those responsible hard.

[Azeem]

Were there any incidents during the Confederations cup ?

[The Artful Dodger]

Russian football is no worse than Italy in relation to racism, Spain isn't much better but I don't hear people crying about them. Racism isn't taken seriously in any country.

[SirBalon]

You’re not wrong for creating it either mate.

Hopefully it becomes an unused thread because that would mean something positive in the sense that things have gone well.

But knowing the scenario over there, it’s more than evident we’re going to have to witness or be told about all of these more than just untoward details of what the human species can be like.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Russian football is no worse than Italy in relation to racism, Spain isn't much better but I don't hear people crying about them. Racism isn't taken seriously in any country.

You’re right, both Italy and Spain have big problems regarding racism. But in both those countries you don’t get battle camps set up in and around the surrounding area by radical fans ready for racist and xenophobic street wars.  

[Dave]

9 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Russian football is no worse than Italy in relation to racism, Spain isn't much better but I don't hear people crying about them. Racism isn't taken seriously in any country.

If the World Cup was being hosted in either of those countries there would be more attention directed at them, but it isn't, it's being hosted in Russia and that's why they're quite rightly the talking point on the matter.

You're right that it's not being taken seriously across Europe, and I have highlighted that in my post. It's the responsibility of all football governing authorities to come down hard on it.

[nudge+]

12 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

Derek Boateng has made comments about what it was like to be a footballer in Russia. He said it's not the abuse on the field that's the difficult thing, it's having to adapt to it in your life. It's little things like walking to the post box with people barging past you, looking at your funny, or talking in Russian behind your back.

This part stood out for me. There's no denying that racism in Russia exists and is quite widespread, but are those little things he's talking about racism though? People "looking at you funny" and talking in Russian behind your back are most likely just curious? It happens everywhere if you are different from the locals and if they are not used to both seeing and interacting with foreigners (i.e. away from popular tourist destinations), especially those that have a different skin colour. I absolutely agree that the stares, the giggling and comments behind your back in a language that you don't understand are annoying, but it doesn't mean it's racist... 

[SirBalon]

19 minutes ago, nudge said:

This part stood out for me. There's no denying that racism in Russia exists and is quite widespread, but are those little things he's talking about racism though? People "looking at you funny" and talking in Russian behind your back are most likely just curious? It happens everywhere if you are different from the locals and if they are not used to both seeing and interacting with foreigners (i.e. away from popular tourist destinations), especially those that have a different skin colour. I absolutely agree that the stares, the giggling and comments behind your back in a language that you don't understand are annoying, but it doesn't mean it's racist... 

I agree, but what do you call that then? Ignorance?

There is a massive problem with racism in the way Rissian football is setup and with this it doesn’t mean it’s as acute with the society. Football is a tribal sport as you well know and it does have a tendency to bring out the worst in human interaction. 

[nudge+]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I agree, but what do you call that then? Ignorance?

There is a massive problem with racism in the way Rissian football is setup and with this it doesn’t mean it’s as acute with the society. Football is a tribal sport as you well know and it does have a tendency to bring out the worst in human interaction. 

I don't know, for me it's just innocent curiosity (especially when it comes to children) mixed with living in a somewhat isolated culture, maybe lacking knowledge to some degree, most of the time. My point is that it's not racism and not really harmful, so I was just confused by that part of the post as it certainly sounded like quite an exaggeration. 

[The Artful Dodger]

38 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

If the World Cup was being hosted in either of those countries there would be more attention directed at them, but it isn't, it's being hosted in Russia and that's why they're quite rightly the talking point on the matter.

You're right that it's not being taken seriously across Europe, and I have highlighted that in my post. It's the responsibility of all football governing authorities to come down hard on it.

You and I both know that is rubbish, this is politics. Russia, like Ukraine and Poland in 2012, is seen as the Eastern bear that we all fear and lots of different stuff will be thrown at them. What happened at Euro 2012? Absolutely nothing.

There's a lot wrong in Russia and it's not a particularly pleasant place but it's not unique in its racism problems. I doubt we will see many big problems for the duration of the tournament, Putin will be keen Russia is shown as a disciplined and strong in authority.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Russian football is no worse than Italy in relation to racism, Spain isn't much better but I don't hear people crying about them. Racism isn't taken seriously in any country.

Italy's got a massive problem with racism, so that's not a great reflection on Russia tbh.

[SirBalon]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Italy's got a massive problem with racism, so that's not a great reflection on Russia tbh.

If there's one continent I know like the back of my hand it's Europe.  There are very few (and I mean very few places) where there isn't a serious problem with racism.  It just depends what parts of society are having that racism aimed at and if that's not as bad as others getting it. Racism with all its various types of discrimination like xenophobia.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

If there's one continent I know like the back of my hand it's Europe.  There are very few (and I mean very few places) where there isn't a serious problem with racism.  It just depends what parts of society are having that racism aimed at and if that's not as bad as others getting it. Racism with all its various types of discrimination like xenophobia.

True, but I think some countries have more of just subtle racism (I think that's a UK specialty tbh). Whereas other countries have more up front in your face racism (which you can argue, is at least honest). Racism is a problem everywhere though.

[Danny]

The problem is when you start to turn racism into a nation vs nation debate, the UK as a whole is more advanced in terms of challenging it compared to the likes of Russia, and as mentioned above Italy and Spain. Listen to what Ballotelli says, remember that friendly against Spain in the early/late 2000s where they made monkey noises against our players? At the time that was something well and truly out of British football culture. But Gareth Southgate makes a very good point and that's to look at our own country because racism is very much alive in the UK.

Racism can be very abrupt (direct discrimination, stereotyping etc) or it can be subtle (lack of opportunity for BAME coaches/managers) and just because you are further down the line in dealing with it doesn't mean you should disregard what's happening in your own country to focus on someone else's.

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

True, but I think some countries have more of just subtle racism (I think that's a UK specialty tbh). Whereas other countries have more up front in your face racism (which you can argue, is at least honest). Racism is a problem everywhere though.

I was going to add "the subtle not in your face"  ethos of racism.  I love how some institutions have used that as some sort of proof that they've either done great work in eradicating it or at least educating parts of society.

For me it's all about where you go because you can find it everywhere... What changes is culture (I've said it time and time again) and how certain societies are in general when displaying acts of emotion or sentiments.  Certain societies are what we generally call more cold and less publicly expressive which in turn hides most emotions and others are more in your face generally with anything and when a sentimental moment affects them then they won't refrain from displaying whatever they feel.

What does it matter that someone hides their inner emotions when their ignorance remains at exactly the same level as one that just feels compelled to show them?  The belief remains the same and that's all that counts unless as a species what we're trying to achieve is hush hush and sweep it under the carpet.

[SirBalon]

13 minutes ago, Danny said:

The problem is when you start to turn racism into a nation vs nation debate, the UK as a whole is more advanced in terms of challenging it compared to the likes of Russia, and as mentioned above Italy and Spain. Listen to what Ballotelli says, remember that friendly against Spain in the early/late 2000s where they made monkey noises against our players? At the time that was something well and truly out of British football culture. But Gareth Southgate makes a very good point and that's to look at our own country because racism is very much alive in the UK.

Racism can be very abrupt (direct discrimination, stereotyping etc) or it can be subtle (lack of opportunity for BAME coaches/managers) and just because you are further down the line in dealing with it doesn't mean you should disregard what's happening in your own country to focus on someone else's.

The biggest most blatant acts of racism I've ever seen... Real hate racism directed as racism has been in France.  Not once, not twice but every single time I've been there.  Not everywhere, but in selective places which tend to be the places that contain the most amount of ethnic minorities.  But in saying that, France is not the most racist country I've been to if you get my meaning.  Racism as you say is everywhere but I don't see any fix anywhere other than an implementation of political correctness which is positive BUT hasn't fixed or even began to fix the issue at all.

[Danny]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

The biggest most blatant acts of racism I've ever seen... Real hate racism directed as racism has been in France.  Not once, not twice but every single time I've been there.  Not everywhere, but in selective places which tend to be the places that contain the most amount of minorities.  But in saying that, France is not the most racist country I've been to if you get my meaning.  Racism as you say is everywhere but I don't see any fix anywhere other than an implementation of political correctness which is positive BUT hasn't fixed or even began to fix the issue at all.

It depends what you mean by political correctness, generally it's just a term used by people who wish they could go back to the older days where racism and sexism was a lot more frequent...social media for all of it's faults (honing in on specific and potential non incidents and giving them mass exposure) is great for speeding up the change in culture, Twitter is great for education as that's where the bulk of modern western culture is influenced. For example topics like white privilege, cultural appropriation...Twitter is a great educator and great at building up momentum on subjects that previously would only get subject slowly via traditional news outlets, if they get coverage a lot. But as said before, the downside to twitter is that it can go overboard on everything....to the point that everything is white privilege, everything is cultural appropriation. For all the good it does in terms of education, it constantly shoots itself in the foot.

[Berserker]

Least racist countries in Europe i think would be the Nordic ones, and perhaps strangely some Balkan's ones like Bosnia.

[Danny]

9 minutes ago, Berserker said:

Least racist countries in Europe i think would be the Nordic ones, and perhaps strangely some Baltic ones like Bosnia.

After years of inbreeding they'd have the least right out of anyone to look down on someone because of their race 

[SirBalon]

18 minutes ago, Danny said:

It depends what you mean by political correctness, generally it's just a term used by people who wish they could go back to the older days where racism and sexism was a lot more frequent...social media for all of it's faults (honing in on specific and potential non incidents and giving them mass exposure) is great for speeding up the change in culture, Twitter is great for education as that's where the bulk of modern western culture is influenced. For example topics like white privilege, cultural appropriation...Twitter is a great educator and great at building up momentum on subjects that previously would only get subject slowly via traditional news outlets, if they get coverage a lot. But as said before, the downside to twitter is that it can go overboard on everything....to the point that everything is white privilege, everything is cultural appropriation. For all the good it does in terms of education, it constantly shoots itself in the foot.

I use Twitter and Social media more for work than for my own personal use so I can't say what's out there or not in that sense but I would expect there's all sorts.

What I meant with political correctness is that what it does is hide people's expressiveness and with that you don't have the full blown act of sentiment and emotion in whichever way it would usually have manifested itself before political correctness conditioned parts of societies.  I am pro political correctness in its vital areas because if you can't cure a problem, you can at least make it easier for everyone to go about their daily lives and not be subjected to uneducated folk.

Going back to social media... As with anything in life, being incognito can serve in two fashions.  It can either give cart blanche to a bigot to freely say (write) what he feels he cannot say anymore or it can also be an escape for these poorly educated minds to be what they're not because the mind is a very complexed piece of equipment, something that doesn't stand still in constant change.

[Spike]

9 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

I've probably created a thread on this as I'm a content creating whore but given how the issue has become a discussion point over the last week, and the likelihood that it will happen during the tournament, I think it's deserving if it's own thread.

This week Danny Rose has quite openly talked about his battle with mental illness, the experiences he went through in Serbia, how he felt let down by the governing authorities, and how he's told his family not to travel to what may be his only World Cup. It was a good, yet a sad read.

Derek Boateng has made comments about what it was like to be a footballer in Russia. He said it's not the abuse on the field that's the difficult thing, it's having to adapt to it in your life. It's little things like walking to the post box with people barging past you, looking at your funny, or talking in Russian behind your back.

I know it's a card used unjustly at times to promote this notion that managers are not given an opportunity based on the colour of your skin, but Fifa really need to take a look at themselves here. Infantino has said referees can stop matches if racist chanting occurs, but we all know that won't happen with the money sponsors have ploughed in to every game. We have players getting fines for wearing certain brands that are similar to those in relation to racist chanting.

With Russia getting the World Cup in the first place, it's almost a massive fuck you in relation to the issue. Hopefully before Qatar we move away from a culture of giving out thirty grand fines for a cat running on the pitch and hit those responsible hard.

What else are they going to speak? They'd be like me getting paranoid around a group of Mexican/Chicanos speaking Spanish.

[Spike]

Racism is in every country on the planet. What, you think you lot can walk down a street in Sierra Leone without a sideways glance?

[Spike]

18 minutes ago, Berserker said:

Least racist countries in Europe i think would be the Nordic ones, and perhaps strangely some Baltic ones like Bosnia.

Bosnia isn't on the Baltic but those Nordic countries you mentioned are on the Baltic.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

What else are they going to speak? 

I remember a comedy sketch when I was a teenager (I can't remember who done it but it stuck in my head) of these guys getting off the plane going on holiday and the moment the plane door opens they can hear everyone speaking in a different language.  Their response was... "Bloody hell this place is full of foreigners!!!" 

[Berserker]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Bosnia isn't on the Baltic but those Nordic countries you mentioned are on the Baltic.

Yeah i know, i meant the Balkans, not Baltic.