Other News & General Chat

[IgnisExcubitor]

What that article by UN fails to highlight is the details.

If you have time and patience, let me explain.

In 1955 post partition our PM Nehru and Pakistan's Liyaqat signed a pact, where they promised to protect minorities. If not then their safe passage will be allowed to the respective countries.

While the Muslim population has doubled here in India (presently more than 200 million) the Hindu population has gone from 14.2% from 1947 to 4% now in Pakistan. You can follow a Pakistan journalist Naila Inayat to see what kind of persecution exists there.

Hence the CAA law was made to allow quicker citizenship to refugees escaping religious persecution. The law also included Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Parsis. Now Muslims can't be religiously persecuted in Islamic countries. The violence against Shias and Ahmediyyas is secterian not religious.

But here's the most important bit. Even they can apply for Indian citizenship. Even the Sunnis. Just not through CAA.

What CAA  does is simply this.

Normally you need to be here for 11 years to get citizenship. Instead of that, through CAA, refugees who have escaped religious persecution from Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan and come to India before December 2014 will get Indian citizenship now without waiting. 

This is a law is ONLY for the refugees. Hence it cannot affect Indian citizens, let alone Muslims. This is like America's Lautenberg agreement which aided Jews and Christians.

You need to provide domicile certificates from either Pakistan, Afghanistan or Bangladesh to qualify for this law.

Then there is the second law, NRC. Don't confuse this with Assam's NRC which was made in 70s and overseen by courts.

NRC means A national registry of Indian citizens to fight the large scale illegal immigration we face from countries like Bangladesh.

That law hasn't even been drafted yet. It will be first drafted. Then argued multiple times, modified, voted upon, modified again and then approved. This will happen in two houses of the Parliament and will probably take a long time. But I don't see this law ever getting passed, because it has now become politically untouchable.

So here we are. Muslims are protesting against a law  (CAA) that doesn't affect a single citizen and a law (NRC) that hasn't even been drafted yet.

To be perfectly honest fear mongering over these laws was done by the left. And the politicians allowed them to go unchecked, because they thought it will profit them electorally. And finally we had riots.

[Bluewolf]

Found this article interesting this morning... 

Downfall: BP worker sacked over Hitler parody wins his job back

An oil refinery worker who was sacked for creating a Downfall parody of his bosses has had his job reinstated, after the Fair Work Commission ruled the “memetic context” of the video meant it was unreasonable to find he was comparing them to Nazis.

The worker, a technician on a BP refinery in Western Australia, was originally sacked after he used an oft-parodied scene from the 2004 film by Oliver Hirschbiegel about the final days of Hitler and Nazi Germany to depict his bosses during a tense wage negotiation.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/downfall-bp-worker-sacked-over-hitler-parody-wins-his-job-back/ar-BB10v00C?ocid=spartanntp

This bit amused me.. 

AWU national secretary Daniel Walton welcomed the ruling, saying employees should “be able to take the piss out of management”

 

 

 

 

[6666]

India's love for angry mobs is the worst ingredient in every issue they're having. Add fascism to that and it's literally a bloodbath.

Edited February 28, 2020 by 6666

[IgnisExcubitor]

OMG he used the F word. He must be right...boring. 

Pity some people don't know what real fascism is, so they call everything they don't like as fascism.

On a side note, now that facts are starting to come out, the left here in India who was crying pogram have suddenly started calling Islamic violence as self defence. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Yes, religious bigotry and hatred is not just confined to fascism, it's popular in many different ideologies.

[IgnisExcubitor]

Yep, also applicable to Xenophobic people who wish to see entire countries being bombed to death (because those countries once housed Nazis) or the same individuals who wish to see other people beaten up by angry crowds in the stadiums for having a different political opinion. 

[The Artful Dodger]

8 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Yep, also applicable to Xenophobic people who wish to see entire countries being bombed to death (because those countries once housed Nazis) or the same individuals who wish to see other people beaten up by angry crowds in the stadiums for having a different political opinion.  

I'm not sure if that's aimed at me or not but I certainly don't wish to be see anyone beaten up. I remarked that I find it bizarre that someone like you could piggyback on Liverpool when you are almost the opposite of what their fanbase have come to stand for. I understand as a glory hunter you care not one jot and see it as just entertainment value, but it is an odd juxtaposition.

Unlike yourself I will criticise anything and anyone who is deserving of it, I like to read from a wide range of sources. You seem to be the lackey of your government, supporting it in whatever it does. This is not the sign of a free mind.

Edited February 28, 2020 by The Artful Dodger

[IgnisExcubitor]

5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Who are you referring to? Unlike you I'm not a servile toady to any ideology, government or nationality. I criticise everything which deserved it.

I was talking about this poster here who wished for all German to be bombed to death over a debate in a football match thread, just because they were winning.

And who wished that I would get beaten up Anfield, just because I said good thing about the Tory party.

I hope he remembers that.

[IgnisExcubitor]

Aww look he completely changed his post, while I was replying.

Edited February 28, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[The Artful Dodger]

4 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

I was talking about this poster here who wished for all German to be bombed to death over a debate in a football match thread, just because they were winning.

And who wished that I would get beaten up Anfield, just because I said good thing about the Tory party.

I hope he remembers that.

I'm flattered you remember that. If you actually recall what happened on that thread blatant racism from German members was being completely ignored by moderators on the forum, the hypocrisy I exposed was clear for all to see.

You lie again, stop constantly trying to be a victim. I said, as I highlighted again, that it would be funny to see you on the Kop with your views. Nothing about violence, I think you'd realise that football is not just entertainment and you are totally at odds with the city you have piggybacked on.

[The Artful Dodger]

5 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Aww look he completely changed his post, while I was replying.

The essence is exactly the same.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Considering Modi's history with the Gujarat riots, it is hard to know whether or not these are riots or if these are Hindu nationalist attacks on Muslims. Ministers working under Modi during that riot were convicted of massacres - he's got a more than troubled history with anti-Muslim policies because he's overseen shit like that.

[IgnisExcubitor]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Considering Modi's history with the Gujarat riots, it is hard to know whether or not these are riots or if these are Hindu nationalist attacks on Muslims. Ministers working under Modi during that riot were convicted of massacres - he's got a more than troubled history with anti-Muslim policies because he's overseen shit like that.

I have fair respect for you otherwise, but if you don't know facts then it's best not to comment.

What exactly do you know about Gujarat riots? Rubbish published by foreign media for ages.

Modi has been acquitted by three courts (trial, High and Supreme courts) and even several commissions. It wasn't a one sided violence either.

Do you know what started it. It was the Godhra train burning. A mob of 100+ Muslims burned a train full of Hindu pilgrims. 56 Innocent Hindu victims were burned alive. A riot followed thereafter.

There were causalities on both sides in Gujrat riots. 800+ Muslims and 550+ Hindus. But all we have been fucking hearing since 2002 is that only the Muslims died. At times the figure falsely changes to 2000.

Worse was to see the train burning incident being deemed as an accident by the likes of Guardian. Those Muslim mobs have been convicted, but you lot still don't feel bad for the 56 that were burned alive. There were kids and women too in those 56.

There is a reason why Modi won nationally in India. People here are not idiots. For 12 fucking years he was targeted with lies. But more worryingly the violence by the other side was given a free pass. Like it is being done this week.

You again casually blame Hindus for this week's riot (Nationalist or not nationalist Hindus I don't care). All you have to do is scroll up and see the videos and read reports of on-ground journalists I have posted. Or just search Tahir Hussain and Sharukh on Twitter. 

There were stupid protests over a law that doesn't concern Muslims since December. And then unleashing of  the violence. When the other side (Hindus) reacted, it's suddenly became pogram or Muslim genocide.

And please can you tell me ONE anti- Muslim policy. 

I have adequately explained above how these laws are not anti Muslims.

If anything Modi has substantially increased welfare schemes for Muslims since 2014. Schemes for education, scholarships and special loans which only Muslims can take, pay to Muslim widows, subsidies, cheaper or free healthcare, housing and even increase of payment to their Religious priests. Much of that money is taken from Hindu temples. He has even abolished horrendous laws like Triple Talaq. 

If you are going to talk about violence on Muslim or cow related violence then please look up journalist Swati Goel Sharma's or scientist Ranganathan's exhaustive work, where both adequately explained how media routinely and regularly ignored crimes by Muslims on Hindus while reporting. That is why 3 (yes 3) hate trackers ( HT, Amnesty and Indiaspend) had to be closed down because they were found to be selective on their reporting. But till the  foreign press wrote reports on their false findings.

Just in this last two months there have been more 800 cases filed in the state of Haryana alone against Muslim cow smugglers. Cases that range from theft to violence. You will not hear a peep from foreign media on that. But the moment a poor farmer reacts and deals with the smuggler, we will see articles in Guardian and NYT.

PS: Just today WSJ was found lying. An IB Officer was stabbed 400 times and lynched by a Muslim mob during Delhi riots and WSJ changed the religion of perpetrators to Hindus. Such is the level of disinformation we have to deal with.

Edited February 28, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[IgnisExcubitor]

46 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm flattered you remember that. If you actually recall what happened on that thread blatant racism from German members was being completely ignored by moderators on the forum, the hypocrisy I exposed was clear for all to see.

You lie again, stop constantly trying to be a victim. I said, as I highlighted again, that it would be funny to see you on the Kop with your views. Nothing about violence, I think you'd realise that football is not just entertainment and you are totally at odds with the city you have piggybacked on.

You even apologised for your genocide comment against the Germans when every other poster got angry. It was a horrendous thing to say what you did. There was no racism from the other side, otherwise the other posters wouldn't have been pissed at you. 

As for the Anfield comment on me. Don't try to be sly now. You know what you meant. All I did was celebrate Corbyn' s loss. Not only did you imply that Liverpool supporters are thugs who would beat up someone for having a different political opinion, you said you would have 'liked' to see that.

I have never piggybacked on the city of Liverpool. I have zero relationship with it. I only follow and cheer a football team.

Edited February 28, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[The Artful Dodger]

Just now, IgnisExcubitor said:

You even apologised for your genocide comment against the Germans when every other poster got angry. It was a horrendous thing to say what you did. There was racism from the other side, otherwise the other posters wouldn't have been pissed at you. 

As for the Anfield comment on me. Don't try to be sly now. You know what you meant. All I did was celebrate Corbyn' s loss. Not only did you imply that Liverpool supporters are thugs who would beat up someone for having a different political opinion, you said you would have 'liked' to see that.

I have never piggybacked on the city of Liverpool. I have zero relationship with it. I only follow and cheer a football team.

I have said many inexcusable and silly things but that is not one I regret. The racism on the German national team thread was rife at the time and was widely ignore by our moderators. Until cannabis left racism was widely let go on here tbh.

Well I apologise if you felt I was asking for violence but I sincerely was not. Football and politics are interlinked IMO but anyway that’s a different debate.

We clearly come from different walks of life but I would encourage you take a more critical view of your own government from time to times. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

I have fair respect for you otherwise, but if you don't know facts then it's best not to comment.

What exactly do you know about Gujarat riots? Rubbish published by foreign media for ages.

Modi has been acquitted by three courts (trial, High and Supreme courts) and even several commissions. It wasn't a one sided violence either.

Do you know what started it. It was the Godhra train burning. A mob of 100+ Muslims burned a train full of Hindu pilgrims. 56 Innocent Hindu victims were burned alive. A riot followed thereafter.

There were causalities on both sides in Gujrat riots. 800+ Muslims and 550+ Hindus. But all we have been fucking hearing since 2002 is that only the Muslims died. At times the figure falsely changes to 2000.

Worse was to see the train burning incident being deemed as an accident by the likes of Guardian. Those Muslim mobs have been convicted, but you lot still don't feel bad for the 56 that were burned alive. There were kids and women too in those 56.

There is a reason why Modi won nationally in India. People here are not idiots. For 12 fucking years he was targeted with lies. But more worryingly the violence by the other side was given a free pass. Like it is being done this week.

You again casually blame Hindus for this week's riot (Nationalist or not nationalist Hindus I don't care). All you have to do is scroll up and see the videos and read reports of on-ground journalists I have posted. Or just search Tahir Hussain and Sharukh on Twitter. 

There were stupid protests over a law that doesn't concern Muslims since December. And then unleashing of  the violence. When the other side (Hindus) reacted, it's suddenly became pogram or Muslim genocide.

And please can you tell me ONE anti- Muslim policy. 

I have adequately explained above how these laws are not anti Muslims.

If anything Modi has substantially increased welfare schemes for Muslims since 2014. Schemes for education, scholarships and special loans which only Muslims can take, pay to Muslim widows, subsidies, cheaper or free healthcare, housing and even increase of payment to their Religious priests. Much of that money is taken from Hindu temples. He has even abolished horrendous laws like Triple Talaq. 

If you are going to talk about violence on Muslim or cow related violence then please look up journalist Swati Goel Sharma's or scientist Ranganathan's exhaustive work, where both adequately explained how media routinely and regularly ignored crimes by Muslims on Hindus while reporting. That is why 3 (yes 3) hate trackers ( HT, Amnesty and Indiaspend) had to be closed down because they were found to be selective on their reporting. But till the  foreign press wrote reports on their false findings.

Just in this last two months there have been more 800 cases filed in the state of Haryana alone against Muslim cow smugglers. Cases that range from theft to violence. You will not hear a peep from foreign media on that. But the moment a poor farmer reacts and deals with the smuggler, we will see articles in Guardian and NYT.

PS: Just today WSJ was found lying. An IB Officer was stabbed 400 times and lynched by a Muslim mob during Delhi riots and WSJ changed the religion of perpetrators to Hindus. Such is the level of disinformation we have to deal with.

There's a long history of tension between Muslims and Hindus in India with brutal violence that's condemnable from both groups. I don't think it's so simplistic as "this side is to blame" and I think it's crazy to think that I don't feel bad for 56 people burned alive because I find Modi to be untrustable, at best, with Hindu-Muslim relations.

And I'm not sure an exclusionary law that denies Muslim immigrants the ability to obtain citizenship is a law that is not anti-Muslim. On the face of it, it's a law that's pretty directly anti-Muslim.

It's tough to take the claims of a "lying foreign media" seriously tbh. That's the kind of shite that Iran pulls when Iran's been caught violating human rights by the foreign media. And it's tough to claim that a mostly western based media has strong Islamic sentiments tbh, I'm from the West and I think that our media's done a pretty fantastic job stoking anti-Islamic sentiment - look at this quote from a New Yorker article:

"The word that was used most was “clash”—that young Hindu and Muslim men were “clashing,” and committing violence and vandalism on each other’s property. What happens increasingly with events like this in India is that an intensely polarized and rapid-acting media machine makes it impossible to discern what is really happening, or what the facts on the ground are. Even if you work in the press, it is getting harder and harder to distinguish what an image is actually showing you." https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-real-objective-of-mob-violence-against-muslims-in-india

It's also why posting videos of what's happening with one twitter user's commentary of what that video is... doesn't actually mean a whole lot, as he discusses in the article. And it's pretty clear Hindus and Muslims are attacking each other as this chaos ensues and the authorities don't really do anything to keep the peace.

This is the byproduct of a multicultural society that's historically been divided. But when you've got government authorities idly standing by and letting this violence happen on their watch, offering no real solutions to it... you've got to question whether or not they want that violence because they benefit from it in the long run. But when you've got a secular nation and a government in power that doesn't necessarily want to be a secular nation, you can see where their intentions might lie with this violence.

[6666]

All the foreign press are liars except ones that say fascism makes sense...

A lot of people find it easy to call out other governments and other fascism driven movements but seem to be under a spell of intellectually lazy tribalism when it comes to their own government.

[IgnisExcubitor]

55 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I have said many inexcusable and silly things but that is not one I regret. The racism on the German national team thread was rife at the time and was widely ignore by our moderators. Until cannabis left racism was widely let go on here tbh.

Well I apologise if you felt I was asking for violence but I sincerely was not. Football and politics are interlinked IMO but anyway that’s a different debate.

We clearly come from different walks of life but I would encourage you take a more critical view of your own government from time to times. 

That's a nice response and I genuinely appreciate that. 

I do take critical view of my government. I think their economic policies are rubbish and they have made several other blunders. 

Honestly, I don't care about them, but I do take strong offence when my community is solely blamed or crimes against my community are ignored. Maybe it's different here where we still feel strongly about communities or our country, unlike in West where you guys are detached from those things.

Anyways, nice to close on a polite note.

@Dr. Gonzo

The issue was not about government inaction. I do believe there was government inaction not just this week, but since December, because all political sides thought they would profit from it electorally in the recently concluded Delhi state elections.

The point was deeming it a one side violence. Or even Godhra and Gujrat riots.

And again about the laws. They are not anti-Muslim laws. It doesn't stop Muslims refugees from seeking Indian citizenship and neither does it take away citizenship from existing citizens.

I have adequately explained it above. I urge you to read that.

EDIT: Just skimmed through that Newyorker piece. Found errors right at the start.

CAA doesn't stop Muslim refugees from applying for citizenship. I have explained above.

Assam's NRC (which is completely different to India's NRC, which hasn't even been drafted yet) was started from the seventies and overseen by the courts. Modi's government was against detention centres for people who were deemed illegal in Assam's NRC, but the Guwahati court insisted on the detention centres.

Shoddy journalism is the issue here.

Edited February 28, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

And again about the laws. They are not anti-Muslim laws. I have adequately explained above. I urge you you read that.

They are anti-Muslim laws though. It's pretty obvious tbh. The amendment specifically excludes Muslims from the list of religious groups eligible for citizenship after immigration. That's pretty obviously anti-Muslim, because if it wasn't... they'd not have been excluded.

I think it's also against the idea of India being a secular nation, using religious basis to determine whether or not someone can ultimately become a citizen one day. Because using religion as a basis to determine anything is by definition non-secular.

[IgnisExcubitor]

@Dr. Gonzo

1] Muslims can still apply for citizenship. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping them. They can still get the citizenship.

2] This law was made at the back of partition. Pakistan, Bangladesh and few parts of Afghanistan were once part of India. The Nehru- Liaquat pact wasn't entirely fulfilled where protection of minorities was either promised or minorities being allowed to return to their choice of country (between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). 

Hence this law. This law ONLY speeds up the process of citizenship from 11 years to 5 years. 

Because non-Muslims are massively persecuted in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan on the basis of their RELIGION. I have provided the figures of Hindus in Pakistan above, or that only 500 Sikhs remain in Afghanistan now. Same goes for the Christians.

This law is not applicable to Hindus from Sri Lanka (Tamil Hindus are persecuted there) or Christians from Myanmar etc. Or Hindu, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc from anywhere else. They will follow the same procedure as others. If it was only about religion then it would have been applicable to these groups from other countries too.

It's about religious persecution in Islamic countries that were once part of India and oversaw partition. Muslims can't be religiously persecuted in Islamic countries.

If you think this law is discriminatory then you should also deem USA's Lautenberg Agreement discriminatory for helping persecuted Jews and Christians from Soviet Union and Iran.

[Dr. Gonzo]

18 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

@Dr. Gonzo

1] Muslims can still apply for citizenship. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping them. They can still get the citizenship.

2] This law was made at the back of partition. Pakistan, Bangladesh and few parts of Afghanistan were once part of India. The Nehru- Liaquat pact wasn't entirely fulfilled where protection of minorities was either promised or minorities being allowed to return to their choice of country (between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). 

Hence this law. This law ONLY speeds up the process of citizenship from 11 years to 5 years. 

Because non-Muslims are massively persecuted in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan on the basis of their RELIGION. I have provided the figures of Hindus in Pakistan above, or that only 500 Sikhs remain in Afghanistan now. Same goes for the Christians.

This law is not applicable to Hindus from Sri Lanka (Tamil Hindus are persecuted there) or Christians from Myanmar etc. Or Hindu, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc from anywhere else. They will follow the same procedure as others. If it was only about religion then it would have been applicable to these groups from other countries too.

It's about religious persecution in Islamic countries that were once part of India and oversaw partition. Muslims can't be religiously persecuted in Islamic countries.

If you think this law is discriminatory then you should also deem USA's Lautenberg Agreement discriminatory for helping persecuted Jews and Christians from Soviet Union and Iran.

So how does this law apply to the Rohingya - a religious minority in Myanmar?

[IgnisExcubitor]

Law not applicable to them, because Myanmar was not part of pre partition India. Hence not bounded by Nehru Liaquat pact. Same goes for Christians or Hindus from Myanmar. I have stated above.

But Rohingyas can apply for citizenship. Nothing to stop them from doing that. Just like persecuted Tamil Hindus from Sri Lanka applying for citizenship and usually settling in South of India (Sri Lanka wasn't part of Prepartioned India). Or the thousands of Tibetans that come here regularly and settle in North East. Or the large Muslim Afghan population that come to Northern states. The law remains the same. Anyone can apply for citizenship. Nobody has stopped that.

CAA only quickens the process for those refugees fleeing religious persecution from countries that were once part of India.

Edited February 28, 2020 by IgnisExcubitor

[Azeem]

That 14.2 % figure from 1947 was the combined figure of East and West Pakistan, East Pakistan now Bangladesh had the overwhelmingly Hindu population. The Current day Pakistan's Hindu population has increased over the years, not to say that society is perfect or like that

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/pakistan-bangladesh-non-muslim-population-citizenship-amendment-bill-bjp-1627678-2019-12-12?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://wap.business-standard.com/article-amp/current-affairs/hindu-population-in-pakistan-has-grown-at-a-faster-pace-than-in-india-119032600520_1.html&ved=2ahUKEwjZ65639vXnAhWrMewKHfE5B5sQFjACegQIDhAP&usg=AOvVaw2xo67pwOlSA0YSst6OcMwj&ampcf=1&cshid=1582950669281

Edited February 29, 2020 by Azeem

[Azeem]

@IgnisExcubitor Considering if NRC is implemented through out the country, how do you actually prove that you aren't an illegal immigrant ? how far do you have to prove your legal residence i.e father grand father etc ? Considering that people living in slums etc in this part of the world don't have any official documents despite living in the place for generations how will be that dealt with ?

[IgnisExcubitor]

Yes @Azeem, it's far from perfect, as Naila Inayat regularly reports about the forced conversations.

This one was the latest. 14 year old Christian girl Huma. Worst was the fact that the court approved her marriage because she had her first period.

Or the case of Hindu girl Mehak Kumari (who is being threatened with death for refusing to accept Islam after forced convection) or several others which Inayat consistently highlights. 

Of course no country is perfect, but with respect to these events CAA might help these people, which makes it a good law. A necessary law.

As for the NRC. No one knows what documents would be required, because the NRC hasn't even been drafted yet. 

We have several legal documents we use for government purposes. But it is also true that the poorest of poor might not have those documents. 

We do have a census every decade, which could be used.

All this will be discussed in the parliament, when the bill of the law is brought there. But that hasn't happened yet.

Which makes these protests even more stupid. So basically they are protesting against a humane law that helps persecuted refugees and another that doesn't even fucking exist yet.