Rucksackfranzose Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) 40 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said: In Israel there is full support for total victory and growing support for a war with Hezbollah. War has boosted Netenyahu's popularity Pre Simchat Torah. A ceasefire is a deliberate attempt to sabotage a war against extremism, it is a means to allow the cycle to repeat itself. The only way a ceasefire will work is if Hamas leaves and that is not going to happen. As they have had 20 years to indoctrinate the populace, propaganda materials such as books that invoke anti semetism are found in homes and schools, it will take 20 years to reverse that level of melevolent hatred. The west bank is an existential threat at the most petruded point it is 9 miles from Tel Aviv leaving no depth of defence. The solution to the west bank for me is US control and military occupation, until a real palastinian government is formed. Two state has been on the table for a century, and maybe people should start listening to what they have said all along, they don't want a two state, they want the destruction of our civilization and October 7 was only a mild showing of the utter malcontent they have for us. How many times do we need to do the same song and dance before we realise that a new plan is needed. For me the only solution is a new mandate for a transitional government I would say the US and UN security council acting as overseer which if they did their job 15 years ago would have seen that Hamas were not meeting the grade, then again if the UN didn't allow membership to over 100 of its 170+ members that fail the requirements for human rights then maybe the UN wouldnt be as useless. Will see how it plays out, Hamas should as far as possible be routed out and eliminated, I'm not sure if it can be completely flushed out but it can be weakened to the point the civilian population are no longer threatened by them. Other part of the truth is Israel opposed the two nations solution themselfes and supported illegal Jewish settlements on the west bank both ideologically and financially. Surely you only forgot to mention these details. Also it's debattable, if a South African can rightfully call Israel their civilization regardless whether they're Jewish or not. Edited March 14 by Rucksackfranzose 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 51 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said: In Israel there is full support for total victory and growing support for a war with Hezbollah. War has boosted Netenyahu's popularity Pre Simchat Torah. I'm sure there is, but the way Israel has gone about fighting this war is foolish at best and malicious at worst. Israel's done nothing but bolster Palestinian propaganda because they've done nothing but show disregard for Palestinian civilian life. It is just going to create another generation of Palestinians that think Israelis and Jews see them as pests to slaughter, so they will be very easy for radicals to take advantage of and use their lives as pawns in a greater geopolitical game - just like their parents are at the moment. What's the end game? Nobody in Israel seems to know. Will they occupy Gaza like the West Bank? It seems to be an unpopular opinion amongst both Israelis or Palestinians. Is Israel just going to make the size of Gaza smaller - concentrated into a camp to live in? I think Netenyahu's popularity rating is actually dogshit right now and if Israel held an election tomorrow, he would get crushed. A lot of people view him as the guy who let October 7th's attacks happen. Quote A ceasefire is a deliberate attempt to sabotage a war against extremism, it is a means to allow the cycle to repeat itself. The only way a ceasefire will work is if Hamas leaves and that is not going to happen. As they have had 20 years to indoctrinate the populace, propaganda materials such as books that invoke anti semetism are found in homes and schools, it will take 20 years to reverse that level of melevolent hatred. A ceasefire will probably let Hamas regroup a bit, but I'm sure they've been massively devastated after months of this war dragging on. Let's not forget it's one of the most heavily armed militaries in the world with nearly the full support of the West against a starving group of people with terrorists amongst them. The primary reason to have a ceasefire is because Gaza needs humanitarian aid. If you don't view Palestinians as people, you probably won't see things this way - but the fact is the way Israel fights wars creates humanitarian crises. Indiscriminate bombing campaigns, gunning down starving people trying to gather aid, and bombing refugee camps is going to do a hell of a lot more to indoctrinate the populous against Israel than a ceasefire will. This is the biggest problem with the way Israel tries to fight terror. There is no attempt to actually do anything to combat the ideologies - instead just moving in, killing people, and disregarding the human rights of the territories they occupy... it does nothing to halt extremism & this doesn't make Israel any safer. A ceasefire and Israel actually taking steps to demonstrate they respect human rights and don't have a total disregard for Palestinian life would go a long way. Quote The west bank is an existential threat at the most petruded point it is 9 miles from Tel Aviv leaving no depth of defence. The solution to the west bank for me is US control and military occupation, until a real palastinian government is formed. Two state has been on the table for a century, and maybe people should start listening to what they have said all along, they don't want a two state, they want the destruction of our civilization and October 7 was only a mild showing of the utter malcontent they have for us. How many times do we need to do the same song and dance before we realise that a new plan is needed. I'm sorry, but there is no true existential threat to Israel at the moment. If Israel was seriously facing any existential threat, the US military and likely other countries like France, Germany, the UK, etc. would all come rushing to make sure that Israel's safety is guaranteed. So that's not really any justification for Israel's continual refusal to follow international laws and for the continued illegal settlements. If anything, these illegal settlements put more Israelis at risk as they give West Bank Palestinians good reason to hate settlers and hate Israelis. A two state solution hasn't been on the table since Rabin's assassination. And has been far from Israelis minds since the day Netanyahu first took power. We're talking about the mid-90s here. So no, it's not really fair to characterise the failure of any progress towards meaningful peace just at the feet of Palestinians. There are people in both groups of people that have a longing desire to put this conflict behind them and move on to have normal lives, they've been let down by leaders who are all too happy to have the extremism grow. But in the eyes of most of the world, the failure of any two-state solution lies firmly at the feet of both Palestinians and Israelis. Quote For me the only solution is a new mandate for a transitional government I would say the US and UN security council acting as overseer which if they did their job 15 years ago would have seen that Hamas were not meeting the grade, then again if the UN didn't allow membership to over 100 of its 170+ members that fail the requirements for human rights then maybe the UN wouldnt be as useless. If the UNSC had done its job in the 90s, Netanyahu wouldn't have been in power for so long and the illegal settlements in the West Bank wouldn't exist. But the UNSC has no real legitimacy in this conflict, imo. Of the permanent members, there's 4 countries that have such close historical ties to Israel... they're basically culpable for the present day situation - especially the US, UK, and Russia. That leaves China as the only one that can truly claim to be neutral... and China's currently conducting an actual genocide of Muslims in Xinjiang. An international coalition is probably needed, but I think it doesn't necessarily have to be a UN led mission and it needs to have a significant Arab presence as a counterweight to the US/Israeli side that would be involved. Quote Will see how it plays out, Hamas should as far as possible be routed out and eliminated, I'm not sure if it can be completely flushed out but it can be weakened to the point the civilian population are no longer threatened by them. I don't know if you noticed, but the US had far more success going after terror groups with targeted special forces operations and drone strikes than outright warfare on Iraq & Syria. Targeted and less sloppy strikes that actually do something to remove the source of extremism. Israel's making a strategic decision to choose to fight this fight as a conventional war. And they've ignored warnings from the US government "not to make the same mistakes we did in Iraq" in doing so - and just as the US found out in Iraq, turns out treating a civilian population as a hostile terrorist population doesn't really do a single thing to stem extremism and terrorism... I suspect Israel will find the same thing out. I suspect Israel already knows, but the leadership in Netanyahu and his little war tribunal, don't really give a fuck about the blowback from the war today. They just want to be seen as strong while simultaneously dragging out the war for as long as possible to cling to power. And it's not like Israel's incapable of precision special attacks - they made a robotic machine gun to kill a nuclear physicist in Iran that was accurate enough to kill their assassination target while simultaneously leaving his driver completely unharmed. Israel is 100% capable of actually fighting Hamas in a way that doesn't put the vast majority of Gazans in harms way. They are choosing not to for political reasons. And not political reasons that have any benefit to anyone other than Netanyahu and his coalition - just literally doing what they can to cling to power while playing with Israeli and Palestinian lives. Honestly, I think Europe generally has a lot to answer for when they decided Palestinian Arabs should pay for Europe's crimes against the Jewish people for hundreds of years. But it was such a horrifically miscalculated decision with no real thought as to the blowback that we'd be dealing with for decades that I do think Europe should generally be doing a hell of a lot more to stop the bloodshed, rather than just sit on the sidelines and refuse to condemn pretty blatant war crimes and human rights violations. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I'm sure there is, but the way Israel has gone about fighting this war is foolish at best and malicious at worst. Israel's done nothing but bolster Palestinian propaganda because they've done nothing but show disregard for Palestinian civilian life. It is just going to create another generation of Palestinians that think Israelis and Jews see them as pests to slaughter, so they will be very easy for radicals to take advantage of and use their lives as pawns in a greater geopolitical game - just like their parents are at the moment. What's the end game? Nobody in Israel seems to know. Will they occupy Gaza like the West Bank? It seems to be an unpopular opinion amongst both Israelis or Palestinians. Is Israel just going to make the size of Gaza smaller - concentrated into a camp to live in? I think Netenyahu's popularity rating is actually dogshit right now and if Israel held an election tomorrow, he would get crushed. A lot of people view him as the guy who let October 7th's attacks happen. A ceasefire will probably let Hamas regroup a bit, but I'm sure they've been massively devastated after months of this war dragging on. Let's not forget it's one of the most heavily armed militaries in the world with nearly the full support of the West against a starving group of people with terrorists amongst them. The primary reason to have a ceasefire is because Gaza needs humanitarian aid. If you don't view Palestinians as people, you probably won't see things this way - but the fact is the way Israel fights wars creates humanitarian crises. Indiscriminate bombing campaigns, gunning down starving people trying to gather aid, and bombing refugee camps is going to do a hell of a lot more to indoctrinate the populous against Israel than a ceasefire will. This is the biggest problem with the way Israel tries to fight terror. There is no attempt to actually do anything to combat the ideologies - instead just moving in, killing people, and disregarding the human rights of the territories they occupy... it does nothing to halt extremism & this doesn't make Israel any safer. A ceasefire and Israel actually taking steps to demonstrate they respect human rights and don't have a total disregard for Palestinian life would go a long way. I'm sorry, but there is no true existential threat to Israel at the moment. If Israel was seriously facing any existential threat, the US military and likely other countries like France, Germany, the UK, etc. would all come rushing to make sure that Israel's safety is guaranteed. So that's not really any justification for Israel's continual refusal to follow international laws and for the continued illegal settlements. If anything, these illegal settlements put more Israelis at risk as they give West Bank Palestinians good reason to hate settlers and hate Israelis. A two state solution hasn't been on the table since Rabin's assassination. And has been far from Israelis minds since the day Netanyahu first took power. We're talking about the mid-90s here. So no, it's not really fair to characterise the failure of any progress towards meaningful peace just at the feet of Palestinians. There are people in both groups of people that have a longing desire to put this conflict behind them and move on to have normal lives, they've been let down by leaders who are all too happy to have the extremism grow. But in the eyes of most of the world, the failure of any two-state solution lies firmly at the feet of both Palestinians and Israelis. If the UNSC had done its job in the 90s, Netanyahu wouldn't have been in power for so long and the illegal settlements in the West Bank wouldn't exist. But the UNSC has no real legitimacy in this conflict, imo. Of the permanent members, there's 4 countries that have such close historical ties to Israel... they're basically culpable for the present day situation - especially the US, UK, and Russia. That leaves China as the only one that can truly claim to be neutral... and China's currently conducting an actual genocide of Muslims in Xinjiang. An international coalition is probably needed, but I think it doesn't necessarily have to be a UN led mission and it needs to have a significant Arab presence as a counterweight to the US/Israeli side that would be involved. I don't know if you noticed, but the US had far more success going after terror groups with targeted special forces operations and drone strikes than outright warfare on Iraq & Syria. Targeted and less sloppy strikes that actually do something to remove the source of extremism. Israel's making a strategic decision to choose to fight this fight as a conventional war. And they've ignored warnings from the US government "not to make the same mistakes we did in Iraq" in doing so - and just as the US found out in Iraq, turns out treating a civilian population as a hostile terrorist population doesn't really do a single thing to stem extremism and terrorism... I suspect Israel will find the same thing out. I suspect Israel already knows, but the leadership in Netanyahu and his little war tribunal, don't really give a fuck about the blowback from the war today. They just want to be seen as strong while simultaneously dragging out the war for as long as possible to cling to power. And it's not like Israel's incapable of precision special attacks - they made a robotic machine gun to kill a nuclear physicist in Iran that was accurate enough to kill their assassination target while simultaneously leaving his driver completely unharmed. Israel is 100% capable of actually fighting Hamas in a way that doesn't put the vast majority of Gazans in harms way. They are choosing not to for political reasons. And not political reasons that have any benefit to anyone other than Netanyahu and his coalition - just literally doing what they can to cling to power while playing with Israeli and Palestinian lives. Honestly, I think Europe generally has a lot to answer for when they decided Palestinian Arabs should pay for Europe's crimes against the Jewish people for hundreds of years. But it was such a horrifically miscalculated decision with no real thought as to the blowback that we'd be dealing with for decades that I do think Europe should generally be doing a hell of a lot more to stop the bloodshed, rather than just sit on the sidelines and refuse to condemn pretty blatant war crimes and human rights violations. I agree in most part that there are better ways to resolve issues and that is with the benefit of hindsight. Was Israels response to the attrocities of Oct 7 disproportionate? No as a Jewish person it had the same numbing effect as 9/11. I woke up and heard the news and when you have family in Israel it becomes a lot more personal. Fortunately they were safe but many others were not that lucky. My grand parents as survivors of the Holocaust and the subsequent persecution under the Soviet Union, I take threats to our people pretty hard, immediately after 7/10 it was rage and anger followed by grief, lately it has come down to anxiety as I don't wear tallits or yarmulke in public due to hostility towards Jews predicated on a misconception of this entire dispute. The solutions to this 80 year problem seem elusive, however I can't see how peace is possible when ideology exists that wishes to write us out of existence. I am prepared to say that as a civilization our history will have good and bad, as a reform Jew I don't pander the same arrogance as Hassidics and the ultra orthodox nutters, that said I just want a Israel where we can be left in peace preferably before I make Aliyah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 6 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said: I agree in most part that there are better ways to resolve issues and that is with the benefit of hindsight. Was Israels response to the attrocities of Oct 7 disproportionate? No as a Jewish person it had the same numbing effect as 9/11. I woke up and heard the news and when you have family in Israel it becomes a lot more personal. Fortunately they were safe but many others were not that lucky. My grand parents as survivors of the Holocaust and the subsequent persecution under the Soviet Union, I take threats to our people pretty hard, immediately after 7/10 it was rage and anger followed by grief, lately it has come down to anxiety as I don't wear tallits or yarmulke in public due to hostility towards Jews predicated on a misconception of this entire dispute. The solutions to this 80 year problem seem elusive, however I can't see how peace is possible when ideology exists that wishes to write us out of existence. I am prepared to say that as a civilization our history will have good and bad, as a reform Jew I don't pander the same arrogance as Hassidics and the ultra orthodox nutters, that said I just want a Israel where we can be left in peace preferably before I make Aliyah. I've heard if you're an Israeli you at least know someone who was impacted by what happened on Oct 7th - and I get that there's a strong emotional connection when you've got friends and family potentially sitting as victims for a horrific attack. Israel is just one of many middle eastern countries where most people live their day to day lives feeling like they're under the barrel of a gun that can go off at any moment. But Israelis aren't alone in that fear, lots of Middle Easterners live their day to day lives in that sort of fear. And for Palestinians, they're not too different from Israelis in that regard. Many Palestinians are like you as well, your grand parents survived the Holocaust - most Palestinians are descendents of survivors of the Nakba. The Nakba was not the same scale as the Holocaust, but it was a systematic atrocity nonetheless. While Germany has done a lot to try to atone for their sins of the Holocaust, can Israel say the same of the Nakba? I don't think it can. For a lot of Palestinians who want peace, it's just a wound that's been allowed to fester and each conflict since the Nakba has just picked at it. As an outsider who was looking in at both September 11th for the US & the attack on Israel on October 7th - they're both horrific terror attacks. But the US response let nationalism flow into something weird - the US used the excuse to go after Saddam Hussein to take their eye off the ball in going after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. They then turned Iraq into a free for all where the effect of long years of brutal warfare led to ISIS popping up and they were more horrific than Al Qaeda. And at the end of the day when the US did get Osama bin Laden... he wasn't in either Afghanistan or Iraq - he was in Pakistan and had been there for years. They didn't do anything but end lives prematurely and create the worst Wahhabi group of extremists the world has ever seen. The hindsight was right there in living memory for Israel. Subjecting Palestinian civilians to bombing campaigns, telling people to go to "safe zones" then bombing them, dropping bombs and firing machine guns in areas Palestinians are receiving aid... these aren't strategies that are going to fix the problem of extremism in Gaza. It's not going to make Israel any safer with this strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 This is a very worthwhile lecture that tells the story why Palastinians think like they do, it doesn't seek to villianise but create context to why they view Israel they way they do ideologically. This conflict is one that seems to be skewed by Western media that parrots Al Jazeera who are Qatari and Qatar funds Hamas and provides diplomatic immunity to Hamas leadership, they have repeatedly lied and these stories are never redacted, the Al Shifa hospital bogus story that was a Iranian rocket that malfunctioned and landed outside the hospital, one person died and a couple were injured but Al Jazeera ran a story about a destroyed hospital and 500 dead. The targeting of civilians is a complete distortion almost as distorted as the fabrication of deaths, not necessarily the number But the ratios. tablet did a piece in the absolute non coronation and variations by various sources showing how the Hamas ministry is fluffing numbers. In that article is a link done with research in Washington that shows Hamas not including dead militant males or distinguishing between how they died. Per the studies 43% of the deaths are males all of fighting age and supported by the IDFs findings in Khan Yunis where they prevented the removal of dead fighters to tag and bag then delivered over 6000 dead for mass burial, they included teenagers killed in combat along with fighting age males. The next reason why it's misreported is shown up in 1000s of hours of battle cams, Hamas have parade uniforms but in battle they wear civilian clothing and will be branded a civilian death by Hamas. To date the IDF has reported over 12000 militant deaths which puts the ratio around 1.4 civilians per fighter, of course it is tragic that civilians are dragged into a ideological war that they are going to suffer for. That said it doesn't make palastinians cause more righteous give it was predicated on genocide dating back to 1920. If and only if we can have a sit down and Palastinians can hear our story, we hear theirs then maybe just maybe we will both realise that we are both refugees or our stories intertwine. What is however true again a century later is that the Muslim world is no longer unified by Islamic ideology, it is why the 700 000 dead in Syria is dust in the wind or the Houthis causing a civil war that has seen 350000 dead and over 500000 living in famine, Sudan is cranking suffering up to 11 and Boko Haram doing the kidnapping thing again, it is all just water under the bridge. But as soon as Israel is around.....it pops. From an Israeli perspective, netenyahu is still likely to lose in the elections but his popularity has gone up again for the handling of a difficult situation. 90% of Israeli's support finishing the job, foreign support in the diaspora is also high, the Israeli left wing and right wing are not like western equivalents and that is due to Israeli nationalism, our collective history and responsiblity to ensure that we are never again victims unifies both sides, left wing and right wing fight on the battlefield for our survival, when you see soldiers, men, woman, all ethnicities, Muslims, Jews, Christians, unified under one purpose. I get that Israel is far from perfect. Damaging Hamas enough will break their ideological hold, when Germans suffered from 1943-1945 through disease and famine, they did not go back to being Nazis, palastinians should not desire a life that only promises death in the name of God who they defy anyway. One final solution will be to move the entire Gazan population to the west bank and build settlements and towns for them, hopefully as a start to solidarity. Gaza is trashed but is also not conducive to living in, Isreal should just repurpose it into a dock and industrial land, possibly a US military outpost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 'Final Solution' I seem to recall these words from somewhere else.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 22 hours ago, Spike said: 'Final Solution' I seem to recall these words from somewhere else.... Amin Al Husseini, Izz Al Qassam were all interested in a Jewish final solution long before Adolf Hitler came along, it was just coincidence that the Nazi's and the Mufti's of the former Ottoman empire had commonality in eradicating Jews. The fact that Israel is expected to live with this when nobody else will is the problem. There is nothing you can give them that will lead to peace, to them this is a holy war predicated on shame and embarrassment and islamic caliphate revivalism. Al husseini, A Qassam, Rashid Rida all pillars of modern Hamas ideology all terrible people. What is fought for today is not for Palastine, it is a Jihad against Jewish nationalism, something the neighbouring Arab states are no longer at contention with. Palastine only came to contemporary use after the fall of the Ottoman empire following world war 2 and the Young Turk revolution, in the Ottoman empire there was no Palastine, palastine was just Jerusalem and controlled by the Ottoman elite namely a few Ottoman Arab royalty. The greater territory was controlled by Cairo, Damascus and Beirut, the Jews were barred from Jerusalem so they settled the surrounding areas. they have no nationalist identity, they are formulated and groomed under the banner of Arab Liberation/Resistance and driven by desire to kill Jews. I am rather moderate on solutions to resolve the conflict, so much so that in various forums dealing with other Jews my suggestions are considered fairy tale, most want the Gaza to be cleared and the people repatriated to Egypt and Algeria where they are mostly descendant from, a certain amount would probably be able to stay and live as Israeli's but it will not be open season at O.K Corral. The West bank is far less problematic and the Arab in the west bank is very different to the Gazans, most are more placated, there are some Islamism groups but they are nowhere near the size of Hamas. A proper solution for the west bank can be resolved one of mutual interest and mutual co-existence. The western interest in this conflict is driven by common interest, western nationality is being torn down by multiculturalism, both Islam and Marxism have a morbid hatred of Jews, it was the Tsarist expulsion, and pogroms through Europe that led to the refugees fleeing and settling in lands of historical connection which they were expelled from by previous colonials, to the socialists Jews were often wealthy and successful and therefore hated, to Islamist its a religious hatred, the two converge on that very commonality. For a real solution to be had, it is not us Jews that need to change, there are over 2 million ethnic Arabs in Israel, they are Muslim and they are Israeli nationalists, the real change is Palestinians and how they see Israeli's, if it is still the lingering on to the so called humiliation of 1882-1920 then we are not going to move on, the Nakhba should have been the moment of change where the Arabs realised that the Jews were going nowhere and sought solidarity, instead they tried again in 56, then 67 and throughout the 90's to early 2000's, the suffering they are going through is driven by their own hand, its self flagellation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 The fuck do you mean they should have just “accepted” the Nakba? The world should have condemned it as the atrocity it was. The fact so many people on both sides are absolutely blind to their own wrongdoing is astounding. The Germans try to morally act in a way to right the wrongs of the Holocaust, maybe Palestinians and Israelis need to look at them and stop acting like children. It takes 2 groups of people not recognising the humanity of the other side for this conflict to keep festering the way it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: The fuck do you mean they should have just “accepted” the Nakba? The world should have condemned it as the atrocity it was. The fact so many people on both sides are absolutely blind to their own wrongdoing is astounding. The Germans try to morally act in a way to right the wrongs of the Holocaust, maybe Palestinians and Israelis need to look at them and stop acting like children. It takes 2 groups of people not recognising the humanity of the other side for this conflict to keep festering the way it has. The Nakhba was a consequence of Jihad, there was a solution for a Arab state and Jewish state in 1920, they chose the genocide route, the chief architect Al Husseini was deep with Adolf Hitler and Himmler including plans to kill jews in the holy land. One doesn't get to call for extermination of all Jews by getting into bed with the Nazi's then try a genocide which the plans started as far back as 1895, then get to call yourself a victim. They were expelled from the Jewish territory because maybe they just tried to kill them. If this is the standard then when the Allies and Red Army were closing in on Berlin, millions of Germans were displaced starving should be seen as a great atrocity. If the Jews did not resist, our entire people would have been written out of history, nobody would have felt sorry for us. Is it unfortunate yes, was it self inflicted yes, Rashid Rida in 1895 wrote addressing his people the Ottomans "politically recatagorised Palastinians post 1920" as Complacent non entities who were pathetic enough to let people fleeing communism settle and become more powerful than them 1967 was offered peace, it was spat in our faces, why? because when people tell you what they want unequivocally, you need to believe it. River to sea is not a nursery rhyme, it is a objective. this is why liberal media in the west will not show the footage of IDF troops going into homes finding Anti Semetic propaganda material, things that depict Jews as sub human and being the duty to kill, it is not isolated either, it is wide spread. The Islamic story about the jews hiding behind trees that will tell the Arab that there is a Jew behind them, except for a certain tree that is the tree of the Jew that will not. It is very hard to reconcile with people who want to kill you based on a complete misconception of their own history. As a Jewish person I would have liked it, but it is wishful thinking. I would Rather America just comes and takes over, then it can be their problem. I agree that Germans eventually moved on when the wall came down, and despite the atrocities of the Nazi's that included 14000 Jews per day amongst other ethic groups including gypsies and communists, that said the germans tried to hide their crimes, many committed suicide with what they did, on 7 October tik toks were made home videos showing the depravity, they were unapologetically happy and people in Gaza were celebrating with some in the west that decided to sing "gas the jews". We have a saying particularly from those that survived the Camps that we must turn the other cheek, the Arabs then came up with the saying that when the Jew turns the cheek it makes it easier to cut their heads off. To forgive is divine which seems to be the never ending story for our people, 17 different empires and colonists murdered, exiled and displaced us, you can forgive us for being sceptical. Edited March 17 by OrangeKhrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Buenos_Aires_Israeli_embassy_bombing March 17 1992, another act of freedom fighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said: The Nakhba was a consequence of Jihad, there was a solution for a Arab state and Jewish state in 1920, they chose the genocide route, the chief architect Al Husseini was deep with Adolf Hitler and Himmler including plans to kill jews in the holy land. One doesn't get to call for extermination of all Jews by getting into bed with the Nazi's then try a genocide which the plans started as far back as 1895, then get to call yourself a victim. They were expelled from the Jewish territory because maybe they just tried to kill them. If this is the standard then when the Allies and Red Army were closing in on Berlin, millions of Germans were displaced starving should be seen as a great atrocity. If the Jews did not resist, our entire people would have been written out of history, nobody would have felt sorry for us. Is it unfortunate yes, was it self inflicted yes, Rashid Rida in 1895 wrote addressing his people the Ottomans "politically recatagorised Palastinians post 1920" as Complacent non entities who were pathetic enough to let people fleeing communism settle and become more powerful than them 1967 was offered peace, it was spat in our faces, why? because when people tell you what they want unequivocally, you need to believe it. River to sea is not a nursery rhyme, it is a objective. this is why liberal media in the west will not show the footage of IDF troops going into homes finding Anti Semetic propaganda material, things that depict Jews as sub human and being the duty to kill, it is not isolated either, it is wide spread. The Islamic story about the jews hiding behind trees that will tell the Arab that there is a Jew behind them, except for a certain tree that is the tree of the Jew that will not. It is very hard to reconcile with people who want to kill you based on a complete misconception of their own history. As a Jewish person I would have liked it, but it is wishful thinking. I would Rather America just comes and takes over, then it can be their problem. I agree that Germans eventually moved on when the wall came down, and despite the atrocities of the Nazi's that included 14000 Jews per day amongst other ethic groups including gypsies and communists, that said the germans tried to hide their crimes, many committed suicide with what they did, on 7 October tik toks were made home videos showing the depravity, they were unapologetically happy and people in Gaza were celebrating with some in the west that decided to sing "gas the jews". We have a saying particularly from those that survived the Camps that we must turn the other cheek, the Arabs then came up with the saying that when the Jew turns the cheek it makes it easier to cut their heads off. To forgive is divine which seems to be the never ending story for our people, 17 different empires and colonists murdered, exiled and displaced us, you can forgive us for being sceptical. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group) These Jews also sought help from the Nazis. And in a few years many of them would carry out the Nakba. If you’re going to pretend this is some conflict where one side is blameless and the other is pure evil, you’re just as far gone as the pro-Hamas people who could make the mental gymnastics to justify October 7th. 1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Buenos_Aires_Israeli_embassy_bombing March 17 1992, another act of freedom fighting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Israel got the help of the Nazis to carry out the Nakba, some 2 years after all the Nazis were hung. The revisionist history is stronk. Some 2 years after the trauma of the Holocaust where we were murdered in industrial fashion, you could forgive that we were not so big on living with people that wanted to kill us I keep hearing about this Nakba, when 200 000 people that tried to kill us were thrown out of Israel and wandered some 60 km to Gaza and the West Bank to plot part 2. On the King David bombing, that was the result of Jewish distrust in the British, in 1939 the British white paper turned millions of Jews back to Europe where we were murdered, after the war Nakam was formed, militant hardliners of seriously pissed off Jews had some bad intension. Was it right, no but it was very understandable. Born out of a Lithuanian Jewish family that were persecuted by the pogroms and communists then survived Warsaw and Trablinka, I am here because of them and I did not even get to know them but we have their prisoner uniforms, the Magen David with Juden on it and prisoner tattoos. You don't have to understand what that does, it is sorrow, pain and hatred, this is why we are hare wired and why October 7 was a damning reminder that we can't go soft because people want us dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 10 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said: Israel got the help of the Nazis to carry out the Nakba, some 2 years after all the Nazis were hung. The revisionist history is stronk. Some 2 years after the trauma of the Holocaust where we were murdered in industrial fashion, you could forgive that we were not so big on living with people that wanted to kill us I keep hearing about this Nakba, when 200 000 people that tried to kill us were thrown out of Israel and wandered some 60 km to Gaza and the West Bank to plot part 2. On the King David bombing, that was the result of Jewish distrust in the British, in 1939 the British white paper turned millions of Jews back to Europe where we were murdered, after the war Nakam was formed, militant hardliners of seriously pissed off Jews had some bad intension. Was it right, no but it was very understandable. Born out of a Lithuanian Jewish family that were persecuted by the pogroms and communists then survived Warsaw and Trablinka, I am here because of them and I did not even get to know them but we have their prisoner uniforms, the Magen David with Juden on it and prisoner tattoos. You don't have to understand what that does, it is sorrow, pain and hatred, this is why we are hare wired and why October 7 was a damning reminder that we can't go soft because people want us dead. It's not revisionist history - former members of Lehi (who did reach out to the fucking Nazis, that's a historical fact) were involved in the Nakba. They are the ones most proud of that moment of ethnic cleansing. That's also a pretty massive mischaracterisation about what the Nakba was. It was not simply a removal of people who tried to kill Jews. It was a moment in an ongoing movement to displace Palestinian people who had been living on the land for generations had a sudden and swift removal. And it wasn't 200,000 people, it was the displacement of 750,000 - about 80% of the population in the land that would become Israel. It can't be undone now, but Israel recognising the dark side of its own history and coming to terms with its own human rights violations and participation in ethnic cleansing would be a step in the right direction to actually having lasting and meaningful peace. And the fact the Holocaust was horrible does absolutely nothing to justify a terrorist attack where the British (who by the way, fought against the Nazis for the entirety of the second world war)... where most of the victims of the attack were just hotel staff (and mostly Palestinians). Human rights are human rights - you either support them or you don't. The Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides aren't recognised as genocides by most countries in the world. The Persian famine, a UK and Russian manmade famine is another unrecognised genocide that killed millions. European countries only just now recognised Holdomir as a genocide against Ukrainians. No one people has a monopoly on suffering. Enduring human rights violations is not tacit permission from the international community to violate the human rights of others. The Holocaust does not give Israel a license to disrespect human rights just because the Germans didn't respect theirs. Furthermore, Israel being conflated with acting on behalf of all Jewish people - when not all Jews are Israelis is a big part of why antisemitism is up massively. It is not something that Israelis or Jews should be encouraging. It might not seem "fair" but it's a matter of human rights - Israel is the nation that has the position of power to begin to break the cycle of violence. Palestinians live under the oppression of their occupiers and their own two failed governments. The descendants of Holocaust survivors indeed should understand the sorrow, pain, and hatred that fester. That's why while Israel does indeed have the right to protect itself, and they are absolutely right to go after Hamas, the way the IDF has approached this war and the callus disregard for Palestinian life and human rights should be a source of great shame for most Israelis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Is peace the ideal, yes we have been saying that all along, the barrier for peace remains Hamas and they can only be uprooted. This is difficult but I believe we have minimised collateral better than expected given the nature of Gaza. If Israel wanted to massacre the civilian population they would have done it with consummate ease, no operations conducted over Ramadan. Along with food aid getting in. The objective is uprooting and destroying Hamas, that is not a would be nice but an absolute necessity, to much damage has been done to their infrastructure and personel fighting capacity to back out, the silent voices of Gaza are now turning on them and that is how you break ideology, nobody wants this again. The IDF is deadly efficient at finding and eliminating militants, a video was released by Rudy Rochman on drone surveillance and how Hamas know they are watched and use children as shields, the footage shows large residential and school districts that are undamaged due to high collateral. 1 Hamas per 1.4 civilians is not what anyone wants but it is pretty efficient ground operation that is reaching its end. There are people that want to stop us getting absolute liberation, likely due to being in Iran's pocket and needing to pander to a certain demographic. A victory for Israel is liberation for palastine only then can real meaningful change happen. Change can only happen when there is understanding of our history and even if that history is not good it can lead to commonality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said: This is difficult but I believe we have minimised collateral better than expected given the nature of Gaza. I'm not so sure about this. Israel's a country that managed to get a robot controlled machine gun to assassinate someone in a hostile country, with no collateral damage. Even if pulling an operation like that off in Gaza after October 7th was impossible (and it likely was), Israel certainly has the capability to take on an enemy with a lot more precision. Under Netanyahu, collective punishment of Gaza has been the norm - this war is no different, imo. 3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said: Change can only happen when there is understanding of our history and even if that history is not good it can lead to commonality But this I agree with. But it goes both ways, Israelis and Palestinians both need to come to terms with their histories - the good and the bad. As well as the geopolitical realities of everything that's happened in the past few decades. The extremists on both sides are not entitled to what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 The evil cunts running Iran are probably going to lock this guy up again. He'll probably avoid the death penalty though just due to being famous, but that likely won't stop him from getting tortured. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 8 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said: Is peace the ideal, yes we have been saying that all along, the barrier for peace remains Hamas and they can only be uprooted. This is difficult but I believe we have minimised collateral better than expected given the nature of Gaza. If Israel wanted to massacre the civilian population they would have done it with consummate ease, no operations conducted over Ramadan. Along with food aid getting in. The objective is uprooting and destroying Hamas, that is not a would be nice but an absolute necessity, to much damage has been done to their infrastructure and personel fighting capacity to back out, the silent voices of Gaza are now turning on them and that is how you break ideology, nobody wants this again. The IDF is deadly efficient at finding and eliminating militants, a video was released by Rudy Rochman on drone surveillance and how Hamas know they are watched and use children as shields, the footage shows large residential and school districts that are undamaged due to high collateral. 1 Hamas per 1.4 civilians is not what anyone wants but it is pretty efficient ground operation that is reaching its end. There are people that want to stop us getting absolute liberation, likely due to being in Iran's pocket and needing to pander to a certain demographic. A victory for Israel is liberation for palastine only then can real meaningful change happen. Change can only happen when there is understanding of our history and even if that history is not good it can lead to commonality How fucking brainwashed can a man be? This idea that Israel only have love and peace in mind or that they care about limiting death and suffering for the innocent doesn't match up with reality. Netanyahu & the IDF have always loved killing and mistreating innocent Palestinians. They'll cry about hostages now, only as an excuse to kill. Obviously won't mention the hundreds of people, including kids, they've grabbed and kept for years without trial. Something which they've done for decades. What Nazi Israel really want is complete takeover of land and for every Palestinian to accept the boot on their neck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Obviously provocative title, but the content is worthwhile, if you are a Hamas sympathiser then probably not for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 9 hours ago, 6666 said: How fucking brainwashed can a man be? This idea that Israel only have love and peace in mind or that they care about limiting death and suffering for the innocent doesn't match up with reality. Netanyahu & the IDF have always loved killing and mistreating innocent Palestinians. They'll cry about hostages now, only as an excuse to kill. Obviously won't mention the hundreds of people, including kids, they've grabbed and kept for years without trial. Something which they've done for decades. What Nazi Israel really want is complete takeover of land and for every Palestinian to accept the boot on their neck. Basically a western sky screamer who knows nothing of the Jewish, Palastine history is deeply sided with Hamas and all signs point to anti semetic If you exclude what palastine is then they will be victims I guess. Until you look at the full picture instead of your adopting your western neo neo liberalism victim and guilt mentality you don't help Palestinians. Your high octane energy should be directed to palastine and how you change their mindset. When America goes to war in the middle east, 4.5 million people died, not a peep, Israel dismantling a genocidal ideology that is at the root of the 1895 Islamic nationalist movement which renamed Islamic jihad, everyone cries about it. Oct 7 was the consequences of being soft, if we went hard on the very first time they launched rockets, they would not feel privileged to do so, we should have taught them like puppy training, launch rockets, get disciplined, over time they would not have been able to amass military capability. October 7 happened because we got soft, we played the western world game that if you are nice to them they will be nice back, gave them water, electricity, internet, money and they took that as weakness. Fixing palastine should not be out problem, it should be the wests problem, not a suggestion either it should be forced on the west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I'm not so sure about this. Israel's a country that managed to get a robot controlled machine gun to assassinate someone in a hostile country, with no collateral damage. Even if pulling an operation like that off in Gaza after October 7th was impossible (and it likely was), Israel certainly has the capability to take on an enemy with a lot more precision. Under Netanyahu, collective punishment of Gaza has been the norm - this war is no different, imo. But this I agree with. But it goes both ways, Israelis and Palestinians both need to come to terms with their histories - the good and the bad. As well as the geopolitical realities of everything that's happened in the past few decades. The extremists on both sides are not entitled to what they want. The American war in the middle east claimed over 4.5 million lives, that is the most sophisticated military in the world. The reality of war is that war is not idealic, it is ugly. I was lucky to avoid conflict, when I was a kibbutzim volunteer 20 years ago it was only just at the time of the Hamas take over and escalation, i had to do service but was not in active war zones, when I finished my kibbutzim it was just before it went to hell in a hand basket. What I can say is we did very crude CQB training, it was not a type of fighting that was common, compared to the men and woman in service today, they are absolutely on point. In trying to answer your question, Gaza is not easy and while not all Gazans are terrorists, the collective support Hamas and because of that the propensity for collateral is high, if the standard was perfection then not possible but the conflict is being handled is a much nicer way than say America would have handled it. As for the future, palastine need to understand our right to exist and why we are there, until they don't want to kill us they haven't taken the first step. I've said it before they are our cousin's related through history, when Canaan was a bunch of tribes, the Israelite tribe became the dominant tribe, with it started the routes of one of the oldest civilizations, palastinians derive from lavant Semites many were Israelites even if not Jewish. Palastine as a national identity is 100 yeas old and they need a better course correction because violence is not going to help them be a long surviving nation. I will however not change my position that we are within our rights to preserve our way of life and rebuild Israel in the best way we can. I don't agree with everything that is going on, the west bank is a bit squeamish, that said Gaza was necessary, if it doesn't look good is not really the point, if we do what the current west wants, we are dead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted March 21 Administrator Share Posted March 21 Does anyone else find it absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through in world war 2, that there can even be such a thing as 'Nazi Israel'!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I don’t think anyone can claim there wasn’t a peep about the US wars in the Middle East. I wasn’t in the US at the time but I do remember that anti-war demonstrations popped up all over Europe. And I think Iraq and GWB put a permanent stain on the US’s reputation they’ve never managed to wash off. And again, US politicians even warned Israel right after the attack: don’t make the same mistake we did in Iraq (and the US had less reason to attack Iraq than Israel had to attack Gaza). But it fell on deaf ears because making this war as drawn out as possible is keeping Netanyahu out of court. It’s just bad leadership from someone who views Palestinian life as something to play with when given the opportunity. 5 hours ago, Stan said: Does anyone else find it absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through in world war 2, that there can even be such a thing as 'Nazi Israel'!? Honestly I think calling them “Nazi Israel” is sort of stupid - it really cheapens the enormity of what the Nazis did when they systematically eliminated people. In what, 6-8 years the Nazis came very close to eliminating all Jews from Europe. Israel’s been in power for decades, they aren’t systematically erasing Palestinians from the world in camps (like China is doing with the Uyghurs). It’s a different kind of oppression. Imo they’re closest compared to both Apartheid South Africa (because it’s hard to claim Israel isn’t an apartheid state) & the US when it did slow genocide of the native population, moving them away from their historical lands into smaller and smaller reservations. Still evil, but a different kind of evil to the Nazis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 3 hours ago, Stan said: Does anyone else find it absolutely mad that, considering what Jews went through in world war 2, that there can even be such a thing as 'Nazi Israel'!? If we are talking about the true meaning of 'Nazi', then yes, it is absurd to call a Jew a Nazi. However, if we are talking about acts of evil, then the State of Israel is up there with other brutal regimes of the past. They have killed 30,000 Gazans in the space of 5 months, most of whom are innocent women and children. Hamas are equally evil with the barbaric acts that they have committed, but even they haven't killed 10% of the number of people Israel has killed in recent months. The biggest problem with the Israel-Palestine issue is that there are too many extremists on both sides. These particular people fully believe that their hate for the other is justified and it's their own religious beliefs that cements this notion in their minds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: . Honestly I think calling them “Nazi Israel” is sort of stupid - it really cheapens the enormity of what the Nazis did when they systematically eliminated people. In what, 6-8 years the Nazis came very close to eliminating all Jews from Europe. Less time. The camps and atrocities had happened but the ‘final solution’, of calculated mass executions didn’t start until the end of 1941, and most of the murder happening in the follow year. Isn’t that insane? To kill four million humans in a year they were executing a minimum of 11,000 people a day. That’s horrifying. These numbers don’t even include the ten million non-Jewish to be murdered. Edited March 21 by Spike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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