RB Leipzig & Red Bull Research - need help please

[TomTsportresearcher]

Hi all, 

I'm currently researching globalisation, commercialisation and fan culture and I'm specifically looking at Red Bull and the RB Leipzig 'project'. I would really appreciate it if you could take a few minutes to help me out.  

It's safe to say the RB Leipzig 'project' has been fairly successful so far, especially since the teams promotion to the Bundesliga. However, from my understanding the club is unpopular amongst fans within and outside of the Bundesliga. RB Leipzig has also recently entered into a cooperation with SC Paderborn which has been protested by SC Paderborn fans (see here https://www.dw.com/en/bundesliga-paderborn-fans-threaten-boycott-over-rb-leipzig-cooperation/a-49073501)

This has got me thinking about the social, cultural and economic impacts of Red Bulls takeover of RB Leipzig. So I have decided to undertake a research project on the topic on these two questions; 

"What do you think of Red Bulls ownership of RB Leipzig?"  and "What do you think Red Bulls impact is on football for both the Bundesliga and football more generally?" 

I think this is a great opportunity for us to look into the impacts and we could potentially uncover future trends within football concerning 'multi-club ownership' and corporations. Your responses will be used in my research project (I will make it available for everyone to see) and kept anonymous. But, if you'd like, I'd be more than willing to cite you. 

If you would like to find out more about my research please contact me! 

Thanks everyone! 

 

[Tommy]

I'd explain it, but I think @Faithcore is better suited for this. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Honestly, I hate Red Bull's involvement in sport. I could stomach it a bit more with F1, because F1 has from day one been about whoring out to corporate sponsors. But with football club, I've always felt the connection between the fans and the club is important. And I just cannot see fans having a truly genuine connection with a brand that's purchased their clubs to sell more energy drinks.

Particularly with Red Bull Leipzig, tbh. I don't watch as much German football as I should, but one thing I've always respected about the Bundesliga is the atmosphere the fans create and how fans are viewed as something important to their football clubs. Each club has their own culture and the fans are what keeps that culture alive - the Germans have done well to recognise this. And this makes RB Leipzig stand well the fuck out - because compared to other German sides, I think they've got a pretty sterile atmosphere. And I think that the fact the club will always be first and foremost associated with a multinational corporation does something to stifle a real connection between the clubs and fans.

I also think they're pretty hated in Germany. Not sure if that's true, but it seems like it from the internet. Perhaps our resident Germans and @nudge can give their two cents on how RB Leipzig is viewed by German football fans?

[Harry]

I haven't paid close attention to the red bull project. Having now looked into it a bit I'm not sure I see the likelihood of their global soccer Empire causing a spike in energy drink sales.

There are maybe some different aspects at play in the criticisms...

Multi club projects are one aspect which definitely I can see being anti competitive and don't like.

An FMCG company buying teams and slapping their brand into the written name of the club is another quite different thing. Football is not F1. It's much more fan driven.

Also there's a dislike of clubs with no history. An Australian soccer league launched here 15ish years ago and I still don't have that true heart feeling about my local club because it takes time to build that genuine passion. Maybe even two generations of parents infecting their kids with greater passion than they had themselves. So anew club effectively springing up out of nowhere and advancing beyond its station is bound to be disliked by everyone.

[SchalkeUK]

This is far more complicated and devious in its inception - basically because most of the noise is being generated from outside the football community.  It is easy to recognise the problems in the UK when Rangers and Celtic have roots in religion - which always festers intolerance, despite the concept being one of love and peace.  Arsenal and Tottenham- indeed others and Tottenham - have a similar problem and you can trace the roots of animosity between Liverpool and Manchester to culture and corporate sources outside football.  Many of the 'ultra' BL fan groups regard the BL in its present form as an inheritance from the division of Germany after WW2.  That immediately puts Leipzig at a disadvantage and gives rise to old animosities amongst non-football communities.  The rivalry between BVB and S04 is intense, but we sit together at games and cry in turn each season as there is never a continual dominance - nonetheless there are still a few hard-line 'supporters' who set out to create a rivalry of their own and try and involve others who would normally not want to know - the 'Nuremberg' syndrome from the 30's still lives in the German psyche despite the vast majority of the population hating what happened and the older generation still not able to come to terms with what they allowed to happen.  It that seems incredible then talk to those who listened to Johnson and Gove during the referendum on Europe and now refuse to admit that they knew nothing about what they were voting for but still say leave rather than accept they were lied to and misled by corrupt politicians  (corrupt in a political sense for their own ends rather than moral or financial forms of the word).  Whatever happens in Leipzig or whatever they do is still regarded through the eyes of East and West thinking members of the community and media and they will never be able to get away from that cultural history.  My own club suffers from the regulations which keep incompetent amateurs in charge when a corporate body could well be better - or worse, but we cannot even try to resolve it.  This last season has proved the case and while Man City and Liverpool - like Bayern - prosper when finance is available, the amateurs take the cheap road to the future and the Tedesco's of the world are allowed to run riot through the club until it is almost too late.  Red Bull have brought success and some stability to Leipzig and the fact that they have been allowed to do that is not used as a reason to complain about breaking rules, it is used as a reason to fester hate in an area and city which many ultras fasten on to.  There is no logic in it and as hard as you may look, you will not find any or even a sensible reason for the animosity - no more than you can genuinely determined the reasons why Bayern and Leeds United have the same effect on the BL and Yorkshire - probably just because we like targets and they are easy ones to aim at.   In Leeds case it was Ken Bates - in Leipzig it is Red Bull and in Bayern it is money they have that we don't have and all of this is - to use an old-fashioned English word - daft!  As we get older we can easily mellow and when my classes had Manuel, Mesut Benny, Julien, Joel , Ilkay, Max, Leroy, Sead and others of different faiths and colours at different times I found it hard to put one above or in front of the other - whatever you think of them now, they were all super young guys who held sincere belief in the word respect. Whatever pressures were put on them they still hold that and the Leipzig problem may exist with some of the fans and media pundits, but it is not there between the Reus gang and the Poulson mates - even when Germany play Denmark.  It is real in some quarters but look for the common ground and I believe you will find that to be at least 90 per cent of the relationships with the rest being unimportant - but only enough to keep and eye on and not ignore.  Humanity does that at its peril. There are no simple answers - my young Muslim friends cry at times when ISIS is mentioned, but they do so also when Netanyahu's name comes up.  Building on those sentiments would be disastrous - encouraging the anti-Leipzig campaign could seriously affect football in Germany for a long time - sadly, ignoring it could do the same. The 1958 British film could be your mantra - "Tread softly, stranger"

[Rucksackfranzose]

From a German perspective I have to disagree with two points the poster before me raised: First of all the rejection of the Red Bull project comes very much from inside the football community whilst the person unattached to it are indifferent; secondly and more important it has the square root of nothing to do with Germany being divided after WWII.

Apart from being a new rich club and the animosities, that derive from it's implications, the rejection of Red Bull Leipzig in Germany come from different aspects:

- the establishing of this club in Leipzig, were two clubs VFB/Lokomotive and Sachsen/Chemie had a very active fan scene already, that has grown over decades

- the takeover of an existing club (SSV Markranstädt) and thus the begin in the 5th tier while other new founded clubs have to begin at the lowest level of the football pyramide

- Red Bull plastering their name on everything to do with this club

- the concept of a club not being owned by it's members but a company is alien to Germans. Not only in football but in all kinds of clubs the memberownership principle is used.

- the undermining of the 50+1 rule that says that 50 percent plus one share of a football team must be owned by their mother club through this shady "Förder" membership model

- last, not least: the distortion of the democratic structure of German clubs through said Förder members

To the football project as such I'd add Red Bull Salzburg is additionally rejected because of their destruction of Austria Salzburg a club with a considerable history with a fan scene that was alive and kicking demolishing this clubs old connections to Salzburg's old supporters in the process 

[SchalkeUK]

Great post from our Saarbrucken colleague.  it sets out the alternative thoughts which - agree or not - must be respected.  Not sure how old he is, but mine is from a perspective of actually living through the 40's and the way in which we were 'brainwashed' at times into believing that what was happening was the fault of all the German people not just the leaders - a principal which recent polling in the UK is still prevalent in modern day thinking. Then it was fear which drove the thoughts - now it is misinformation (not a great fan of Donald, but his 'fake news' syndrome does often have some credibility to it).  At least TomT has two or more theories to expound upon which could make his final presentation worth reading.  Perhaps we might be able to do that online when he gets his Phd award!  More contributions would be great, but I repeat - keep the comments respectful and based on experience rather than what you read!  It is obvious that Rucks... has done just that!

[nudge]

4 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

From a German perspective I have to disagree with two points the poster before me raised: First of all the rejection of the Red Bull project comes very much from inside the football community whilst the person unattached to it are indifferent; secondly and more important it has the square root of nothing to do with Germany being divided after WWII.

Apart from being a new rich club and the animosities, that derive from it's implications, the rejection of Red Bull Leipzig in Germany come from different aspects:

- the establishing of this club in Leipzig, were two clubs VFB/Lokomotive and Sachsen/Chemie had a very active fan scene already, that has grown over decades

- the takeover of an existing club (SSV Markranstädt) and thus the begin in the 5th tier while other new founded clubs have to begin at the lowest level of the football pyramide

- Red Bull plastering their name on everything to do with this club

- the concept of a club not being owned by it's members but a company is alien to Germans. Not only in football but in all kinds of clubs the memberownership principle is used.

- the undermining of the 50+1 rule that says that 50 percent plus one share of a football team must be owned by their mother club through this shady "Förder" membership model

- last, not least: the distortion of the democratic structure of German clubs through said Förder members

To the football project as such I'd add Red Bull Salzburg is additionally rejected because of their destruction of Austria Salzburg a club with a considerable history with a fan scene that was alive and kicking demolishing this clubs old connections to Salzburg's old supporters in the process 

Brilliant post; can't add much to it as @Rucksackfranzose covered most of the points explaining the animosity against Red Bull in football and RB Leipzig specifically. I also wholeheartedly disagree with the suggestion that it has anything to do with the West/East divide; that division might still exist in certain societal aspects but the football fan animosity towards RB Leipzig comes solely from the fact that they are owned by the Red Bull concern, not because they are based in a former-DDR part of the country. It's enough to see the animosity the likes of Hoffenheim and 1860 also received from the fan community after being taken over by an investor to understand the root causes of the hatred. Somewhat anecdotal evidence to further support this view but most of my German part of the family comes from the East (near Leipzig as well) and while they would love the idea of a Leipzig-based club being successful in the top tier, all of them still reject the product that Red Bull created. 

[SchalkeUK]

There are still occasional problems and the article in the Local last September headed -'The wounds still hurt today' are in no way meant to link to sport and football, but there is an underlying minority who would create problems if they could and the dislike of Leipzig by fans based in what was the old west can still be used as a source of antagonism between the factions.  If your article is to include the Social fabric around the BL then to ignore this would be to see no problems in Glasgow when the two main rivals meet!

[Faithcore]

17 hours ago, Tommy said:

I'd explain it, but I think @Faithcore is better suited for this. 

 @Rucksackfranzose and @nudge did a perfect job. Couldn't have explained it any better.

[Rucksackfranzose]

38 minutes ago, SchalkeUK said:

There are still occasional problems and the article in the Local last September headed -'The wounds still hurt today' are in no way meant to link to sport and football, but there is an underlying minority who would create problems if they could and the dislike of Leipzig by fans based in what was the old west can still be used as a source of antagonism between the factions.  If your article is to include the Social fabric around the BL then to ignore this would be to see no problems in Glasgow when the two main rivals meet!

Of corse there are still tensions between former FRG and former GDR inhabitants, still neither Dynamo Dresden nore FC Magdeburg face such rejection as RB Leipzig, let alone Union Berlin, the animosities have nothing to do with that division. Red Bull would face the same rejection if they were situated in Essen, or any other western German city.

[SchalkeUK]

 

39 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Of course there are still tensions between former FRG and former GDR inhabitants, still neither Dynamo Dresden nore FC Magdeburg face such rejection as RB Leipzig, let alone Union Berlin, the animosities have nothing to do with that division. Red Bull would face the same rejection if they were situated in Essen, or any other western German city.

Accept the above, but Leipzig are competing at a different level with better results.  If Dresden or Magdeburg were given the same financial clout and corporate support would they still be on a different plane?

[Rucksackfranzose]

27 minutes ago, SchalkeUK said:

 

Accept the above, but Leipzig are competing at a different level with better results.  If Dresden or Magdeburg were given the same financial clout and corporate support would they still be on a different plane?

No the reason being the corporate support not their geography, as I mentioned before Red Bull would face the same hostility in any western German city, juist look at Hoffenheim or 1860 München.

[TomTsportresearcher]

All great posts and very insightful, there is no wrong or right answer and it's great to see a healthy debate between @Rucksackfranzose and @SchalkeUK. Your insights certainly offer alternative perspectives. 

Let me ask you this, what do you both think of Red Bulls ownership of RB Leipzig? And do you think it's a good thing for football? 

As a researcher I'm very much a neutral on this topic haha. 

[SchalkeUK]

Corporate money in football has totally changed the game from what it was even as recent as ten years ago.  In some respects it has been an advantage to those able to 'sell their soul' and in others it has completely ruined the ethic of the game and created monsters both on and off the field.  The BL rules were laid down to allow supporters and fans to have some form of control over their teams - just as Rugby League used to be in the UK.  It is debatable whether Red Bull have broken the rules or not, but that decision has been fudged many times recently since Hoffenheim set a new sort of interpretation.  Luckily the German International side has not suffered the same way as the English team has.  Too many imports have seen potentially brilliant youngsters ending up playing in Germany whilst their places in the UK have been filled by overpaid - and often less able players.  The German youth system is still working, but Clubs like 04 suffer by bad management decisions and the kids are now playing first team matches elsewhere.  04 has no present members in the German team - despite ex players almost making up half the side.  Corporate money in Manchester, Liverpool, London and Paris has done that.  If the BL rules had been firmly imposed then most of the Leipzig problem would not even be there - probably they would not even be in the top league but down in the third or fourth tier.  My reasoning as set out above is simply that had Red Bull been stopped, the Leipzig problem would still have been there albeit in a much smaller part but the two arguments together have created an almost vitriolic problem and football is the loser.  Strong leadership at all levels is not there at present and when one man tries he is often ridiculed and abused for trying - recent FIFA problems have highlighted that. Problem is we can all see what's wrong ( or so we think) and can do sweet nothing about it!  If you think footy has a problem then watch the UK Parliament between now and the end of October.  As they say, it's enough to make a grown man cry!  One thing I have learned from this - my respect for the guy with the French backpack has been greatly increased

[Rucksackfranzose]

Can only speak for Germany here, as I simply know too little about the socio-cultural shaping of football  in other countries.

If it stays a unique project it won't affect football's societal impact too much or even might be a blessing in disguise as it might remind the football scene that their influence in their own club isn't a naturalness and therefore strengthen the club members willingness to participate actively in the club's daily life and bodies, that's probably just me thinking optimistic, though. 

If it becomes a role model it will destroy football as the sociological phenomenon it currently is in Germany for two reasons.On one hand the commercialization comes automatically with monopolization, thus destroying a whole lot of smaller clubs, that won't be able to  compete anymore with clubs disposing over corporate money and therefore will be drying out and dying a harmfully slow death, which would lead to a lesser amount of clubs and therefore to lower penetration of society in the end. On the other hand more clubs would lose their democratic structure which led to a loss of participation of members then reduced to clients without voting rights and say of any form, what, in my opinion, would reduce the identification with their clubs most members feel nowadays.

There's still one point worth raising as it hasn't been mentioned yet, that clearly indicates what my opinion of this project is, a concept I can't find an English translation for "Gemeinnützigkeit"  it says clubs have an obligation of being of societal benefit, something which traditional football clubs fulfill in diverse way, by exercising educational tasks, by charity, in crime and addiction prevention, by providing recreational spaces for youth, and in many more ways, while the only aims of Red Bull Leipzig are promoting their soft drink, maximizing profit and perhaps even to a lesser extent sporting success. In fact they got their "Gemeinnützigkeit" recognition for promotion of health by providing sport exercising facilities. I can only see this "project" as an assault on German football culture and would celebrate if they were going bust tomorrow. 

[SchalkeUK]

I think the word you are looking for applies to all those with decent, respectful and honest intentions to do good - particularly in favour of those who are less fortunate both financially and in respect of fitness of mind and body - our word would be charitable.  Many 'charities' do work which benefits mankind all over the world but sometimes (as in the recent problems with Oxfam) their intent is hi-jacked by individuals who take advantage or not all monies collected go to the correct place - usually the case with some countries who receive 'Foreign Aid' from other governments and it ends up in the banks of the corrupt politicians.  There is little doubt that Gemeinnützigkeit is not the guiding principle in Red Bull's approach to Leipzig - club or community - but if there are enough decent people in the club they can use the money to do just that and some benefit is possible. However, one sin does not preclude retribution for another - how each individual interprets that- viz: turns a 'blind eye' to some of the things going on - is not set in law or stone.  Our local young lady lost her life fighting for what she believed in and next week the area will be full of people remembering her work with loads and loads of Gemeinnützigkeit in evidence.  Tomorrow there will be a big game in Chelsea which - whatever one's criticism of the 'hype' around it - will raise a lot of money for kids around the world with the UK Government doubling the amount raised.  Whatever the outcome of our friend's research there has to be somewhere a little positive in it - if just one kid's life has been changed and improved or one old lady is helped to enjoy the end of her life more - Gemeinnützigkeit wins!  Dear Jo and I used to play Ray Peterson's version of the old US Cowboy song 'Help stamp out Loneliness'.  Cynics might find it can be worth a listen.  Now I must pause as I have 20 kids waiting for their Saturday morning Lego Club to start! C'est La Vie!

[nudge]

I'd also like to add that the "extraordinary youth development" that some like to attribute to RB Leipzig is a myth; especially when it comes to developing young talents from the region which is something RB themselves tried to use as one of the selling points of their "project". 

To better illustrate this:

Kicker; January 2018

 

Current data from Transfermarkt.de:

[TomTsportresearcher]

Again thank you for your responses It's interesting that  'Gemeinnützigkeit' has been mentioned, I have come across something similar in my research about the importance of a club as a symbol for the community and how the government actively want fans to participate in the democratic process of clubs in the BL. 

It's fair to say the 50 + 1 rule has been an important feature of governance within the BL to maintain this democratic process. How important do you think the 50 + 1 rule is? and do you think the incursion of RB Leipiz and to some extent 1899 Hoffenheim has put pressure on the DFL/DFB to reform or relax the rule?

[SchalkeUK]

The reply to that will have to come from nudge or Tommy or someone else in the DDR.  Our present political system would take the 'commercial' way out and try and over-rule the original intentions and change the 50+1 ideal.  In Germany it might not be so, but only those with direct knowledge of local politics would be able to accurately assess that.  In the UK it would have been wiped out or ignored a long time ago!  Even back in time I did suggest on a visit to the Parliamentary offices in Dusseldorf that their local member accept an offer to exchange David Cameron for Angela Merkel but he refused point blank to consider it.  Clubs' histories have always been important in the local communities - although the coal mines are no more, we, as 04 fans, still regard ourselves as 'Knappen' and the entrance to the pitch from the dressing rooms is through what looks like an old mine shaft.  Change that at your peril!!  Recent celebrations confirm that the feeling and culture is still alive and living in the Ruhr and to confirm the respect for the immigrant population many of the pubs have gone alcohol free to allow for both sets to come together in community groups.  As in the UK there are still small pockets of 'supremacists' who occasionally cause trouble and in Germany they often hang on to the football clubs where they feel they can create the most effect - standing in the Olympic Stadium in Berlin watching Hertha can sometimes be a little frightening and the banners of some of the Leipzig supporters are not always nice - the reason why I suggest that such should not be given too much prominence, but should never be ignored. No doubt Thea will have more to say....

[Rucksackfranzose]

DFL already decided to reform the 50+1 rule in the sense of making it legally incontestable, This and toughening it, i.e. trying to close loopholes like those Hoffenheim and Red Bull used to get their respective  licence,  is the right way to go.