American Politics Discussion

[Harry]

The whole American system is such an arm wrestle. The democrats are still recovering from the single term Jimmy Carter followed by triple Reagan/Bush.... That period stacked the supreme Court conservative. That stacked court awarded the 2000 election to Bush and McConnell holding out judge appointments followed by trump election has entrenched massive partisanship throughout the judiciary at multiple levels... The 2016 election set the democrats bank around 20 years from getting the judiciary back into balance

[RandoEFC+]

I'm seeing a lot of this about the courts, the Senate, the house of representatives, etc. Fair enough, there's still going to be a fuck ton wrong with America, and it might not even get better under Biden, but can't we just be happy that it's not Trump for another four years? This election means so much in the bigger picture. It's not the emphatic rejection of populism that I'd hoped we'd see after 4 years of this maniac, but it's still a rejection. The US President is arguably the most prominent person in the world, certainly has been when it's been the overgrown whoopee cushion over the last few years. The damage he's done to worldwide relations, globalisation, fighting climate change, generally setting any sort of example of behaviour or decency, has been extreme, and with the vindication of a second term behind him after all the shite he's got away with over the past four years, the damage would have become immeasurable.

This stuff has an impact all over the world, certainly over the Western world. It was horrifying over the past four years as a teacher when I'd see 14 year olds in the UK doing impressions of Trump and thinking he was some comedic figure, imitating the things he said, thinking they were being edgy most of the time but sometimes actually thinking some of those things were becoming okay to say again, and who can blame them when the US President was coming out with them and getting away with it? I was absolutely delighted yesterday when I had a class of 12-13 year olds in front of me asking if Biden was ahead in Michigan yet. All bar one (that were interested) wanted Biden to win. I can't express that myself because you have a responsibility as a teacher not to express your political views to young people, but that sort of thing restores my faith in humanity just a little bit.

Yes, it's absolutely horrible that the US and the Western world has got to a point where celebrating "not Trump" as progress is a thing, but I'm going to celebrate it anyway. Right now, in this moment, I don't care about the Senate, I don't care about the Supreme Court. I'm almost 28 and this is the first election in my adult life which has yielded any hint of positivity for the future. The US might still be in a really shitty place politically but arresting the slide, and taking a step in the right direction, however small (and I wouldn't call it small) is cause for celebration.

Biden isn't the man to fix everything and he might get very little done policy-wise in the years to come but his line "I'm going to govern not as a Democratic President but as an American President" is the exact tonic the US needs after Trump and that's what people outside the US will see for the next four years. In the big picture, that to me is the most important thing. You have to allow yourself to hope and believe that a President's example can "groom" the electorate to move more to the left so that the Senate and Congress can be moulded in the image of a more progressive country down the line, otherwise we're just going to stay miserable.

Trump lost, celebrate.

[Inverted]

To me the fundamental shaper of how optimistic people are, is whether they see Trump as the problem or as a symptom. 

To me the fundamental problems are:

1 - almost half of the population of the United States, consciously or not, has an essentially fascistic political outlook (disgust at a perceived cultural hegemony, emotional attachment to authority, rapidly shifting mentality between triumphalism and self-pity, idolisation of strength and obedience, and most of all, a conspiratorial way of understanding the world)

2 - a large part of that segment of the population is too detached from material reality to be rescued by persuasion, and the GOP enjoys too strong a position to forsake them,

3 - the leaders of the liberal establishment generally can not grasp the depth of the prior 2 points, and in any case can not accept that it is an essentially internal issue, based on the USA's own failings in its economic, legal, and social development. 

Beating Trump is at best a slight reprieve. Certainly I'm glad if it happens but it means nothing if the Democrats do not start getting their act together in ways they have completely failed to so far. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Inverted

[Eco]

3 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Don't actually agree with this, Biden is a right-winger who will do nothing fundamentally to change the USA. The next Republican winner will possibly be even worse than Trump considering the trajectory of that party. Only fundamental change can cure America. Couldn't care less either way though, if there is a country and culture less deserving than the USA I'd love to see it.

This again? We get it, you hate America. Broken record you have become in these discussions. 

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Almost half of the country just voted to re-elect a known racist sex offender who openly lies to the public, pours gasoline upon the embers of the historical divisions in the country and profits off of it. Biden might not be much of a socialist but he is at least a reasonable and responsible human being which is enough of a fundamental change for now. You're not going to convince the electorate to switch from Trump to Sanders overnight. These things have to come in steps and we have to understand this both in the UK and in the US or we're going to be complaining on forums about right wing governments for a lot longer.

The idea behind Biden is that he's palatable to a lot of Trump supporters, the ones they actually had a chance of winning over. His job is to show them what moderation and compassion can look like over the next 4-8 years so that if it's Kamala Harris or somebody else more to the left than Biden on the next presidential ticket, some trust in kindness and togetherness can be built back into the electorate.

Few things here:

The majority of the American public don't really trust politicians, because they all lie. As for the sex offender and racist aspect, I can't say anything to discredit this, other than just remind you that there is a lot of people that align with the Republican party that are able to ignore the man, and still vote for the party that most aligns with their views. 

Obamacare scared the shit out of a lot of people, and Trump got on top of that and spread lies about it that just excited his fanbase. Trump runs on the platform that he isn't a 'normal' politician and that he is a businessman, and since we have a society of people that read headlines and not do their own research into facts, they honestly believe that Trump is just a great businessman. 

Also, and I have stated this a couple of times, the economy under Trump before Covid, was booming. our stocks were soaring, businesses were making a lot of money, and the majority of the country were happy because they were thriving on the personal front. Now Covid comes, and Republicans will say that it's not Trump's fault, and the rest of demographic will just take this as another reason Trump needs to be out of office. 

We have record turnouts in this election and I believe that is 100% due to Trump (good or bad), and I'm certainly looking forward to the day Trump and his Far-Right, gun carrying members, begin to riot and realize how those views do not fit with this country. 

28 minutes ago, Inverted said:

To me the fundamental shaper of how optimistic people are, is whether they see Trump as the problem or as a symptom. 

To me the fundamental problems are:

1 - almost half of the population of the United States, consciously or not, has an essentially fascistic political outlook (disgust at a perceived cultural hegemony, emotional attachment to authority, rapidly shifting mentality between triumphalism and self-pity, idolisation of strength and obedience, and most of all, a conspiratorial way of understanding the world)

2 - a large part of that segment of the population is too detached from material reality to be rescued by persuasion, and the GOP enjoys too strong a position to forsake them,

3 - the leaders of the liberal establishment generally can not grasp the depth of the prior 2 points, and in any case can not accept that it is an essentially internal issue, based on the USA's own failings in its economic, legal, and social development. 

Beating Trump is at best a slight reprieve. Certainly I'm glad if it happens but it means nothing if the Democrats do not start getting their act together in ways they have completely failed to so far. 

Both the Dems and Rebs need to take a hard look in the mirror, and please the Liberatians needs to gain some ground so that they can at least bring a 3rd view into all this. 

I think American politics are different from other countries, as we have a two party system which their hard stances on key topics, and there are a lot of people that will vote for their party, despite who is leading it. My Mom is a far-right, while my sister is far-left. Mom thinks Trump is a scum bag, but his actions towards the economy and standing up for America against the WHO and Paris Agreement is enough to get her and a lot of people's vote. My sister meanwhile, told me that she'd be willing to give Obama a lifetime appointment to president over living in this country for 4 more years under Trump. Both extreme. 

The problem with being 'in the middle' is that it doesn't rally and excite people. Simple. 

If your Trump, then you yell about Gun Rights, Anti-Immigration, and about anti-socialism and you will get a lot of people excited. 

If you Biden, then yell about Women's Right, Healthcare for all, and gun laws and you will get a lot of people excited.

[Azeem]

This isn't going to get decided until December. Go do your work people 

[Harry]

[Eco]

15 hours ago, Tommy said:

Omg, watched CNN all day, and was always wondering why the "male vote" is so important, until I now realized that they meant mail vote. 

This made me immediately think of this. Go to 1:18. 

 

[Harry]

 

The difference between Arizona and Pennsylvania

[Harry]

 

[Stan]

46 minutes ago, Eco said:

This again? We get it, you hate America. Broken record you have become in these discussions. 

Few things here:

The majority of the American public don't really trust politicians, because they all lie. As for the sex offender and racist aspect, I can't say anything to discredit this, other than just remind you that there is a lot of people that align with the Republican party that are able to ignore the man, and still vote for the party that most aligns with their views. 

Obamacare scared the shit out of a lot of people, and Trump got on top of that and spread lies about it that just excited his fanbase. Trump runs on the platform that he isn't a 'normal' politician and that he is a businessman, and since we have a society of people that read headlines and not do their own research into facts, they honestly believe that Trump is just a great businessman. 

Also, and I have stated this a couple of times, the economy under Trump before Covid, was booming. our stocks were soaring, businesses were making a lot of money, and the majority of the country were happy because they were thriving on the personal front. Now Covid comes, and Republicans will say that it's not Trump's fault, and the rest of demographic will just take this as another reason Trump needs to be out of office. 

We have record turnouts in this election and I believe that is 100% due to Trump (good or bad), and I'm certainly looking forward to the day Trump and his Far-Right, gun carrying members, begin to riot and realize how those views do not fit with this country. 

Both the Dems and Rebs need to take a hard look in the mirror, and please the Liberatians needs to gain some ground so that they can at least bring a 3rd view into all this. 

I think American politics are different from other countries, as we have a two party system which their hard stances on key topics, and there are a lot of people that will vote for their party, despite who is leading it. My Mom is a far-right, while my sister is far-left. Mom thinks Trump is a scum bag, but his actions towards the economy and standing up for America against the WHO and Paris Agreement is enough to get her and a lot of people's vote. My sister meanwhile, told me that she'd be willing to give Obama a lifetime appointment to president over living in this country for 4 more years under Trump. Both extreme. 

The problem with being 'in the middle' is that it doesn't rally and excite people. Simple. 

If your Trump, then you yell about Gun Rights, Anti-Immigration, and about anti-socialism and you will get a lot of people excited. 

If you Biden, then yell about Women's Right, Healthcare for all, and gun laws and you will get a lot of people excited.

First bit - Does this not worry you?! This isn't just a US problem either. Similar thing in UK - our PM is nothing but a ball of posh bluster and excited energy.

Second bit - again, UK is very much the same. Two parties going head to head with barely any challenge(s). 

[Azeem]

Good stuff

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

First bit - Does this not worry you?! This isn't just a US problem either. Similar thing in UK - our PM is nothing but a ball of posh bluster and excited energy.

Second bit - again, UK is very much the same. Two parties going head to head with barely any challenge(s). 

As an English in America, all I can really say is both US and UK politics depress the shit out of me.

[Inverted]

If Trump was British and ran for PM he would win a crushing landslide. 

The only reason he polls poorly here at the moment is because the media has no particular reason to try and sell him to the public. If he was running for power, and they had to try to do it, they could easily manage to put him in No. 10. 

In fact, Britons as a nation are so impressionable, that - given a full electoral cycle - you could get us to vote in just about anyone you can imagine. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Inverted

[RandoEFC+]

What's the feeling towards electoral form in America? The electoral college system is objectively ridiculous, as much as it makes for exciting viewing from my point of view as a mathematician and someone who loves the whole thing from exit poll to initial projection to the closing arithmetic.

In the UK, we have a similarly flawed system which can see, for example UKIP in 2012(?) getting 10% of the vote and no MPs when by rights they should have had 65. It's the same in the USA. Voting regionally for Senators and Representatives makes sense as you need the local accountability. There's no reason why the Presidential election shouldn't just be decided by the popular vote, as the President represents the whole country, not an individual state. I get that the constitution is precious in the US but I wonder what the public perception is?

Electoral reform isn't actually an unpopular policy in the UK. Last poll I saw it may even have been just over half of those polled who were in favour of moving towards proportional representation. The practicalities are difficult in the UK though because an MP has local accountability as well as playing a role in the arithmetic of the House of Commons. You'd have to separate those two roles if you wanted to change the House of Commons to proportional representation without constituencies ending up with MPs they didn't vote for. It's also probably never going to happen in the UK because neither of the major parties are going to introduce legislation to get rid of a system that enables them to rack up well over half of the seats in the House with 30-40% of the national vote.

In the US I understand that the Senate and the House are more like the UK's House of Commons but sacking off the electoral college and choosing the President on popular vote just seems like such an easy win to me. The electoral college is brilliant from an observer's perspective, observing the strategy of each campaign, analysing the changing demographics in each state, etc. It isn't democratic though, is it? And that's before you get started on the fact that the President is allowed to make direct appointments to the Supreme Court who may be asked to rule on the legitimacy of a Presidential election result involving him or her during their time serving within it.

[Inverted]

The British electoral system is kind of dumb, and a bit of a relic, but the American system was explicitly designed to protect a propertied minority from the threat of meaningful democracy. 

So in that sense, the American system does work well.

[Eco]

6 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

What's the feeling towards electoral form in America?

I'm not sure, but it has never made a lick of since to me. If we went to popular vote though, Trump would have never been elected...

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Inverted said:

If Trump was British and ran for PM he would win a crushing landslide. 

The only reason he polls poorly here at the moment is because the media has no particular reason to try and sell him to the public. If he was running for power, and they had to try to do it, they could easily manage to put him in No. 10. 

In fact, Britons as a nation are so impressionable, that - given a full electoral cycle - you could get us to vote in just about anyone you can imagine. 

I’m not so sure. I know the Reese-Mogg’s of society have a wet dream of the UK being as right wing as the modern GOP, but I still think most Tories would most closely align with moderate Democrats than with the Trumpian GOP.

You’re right the right wing media campaign would sort of gloss over all the terrible shite that Trump does and normalise it. But isn’t a normalisation or Trump exactly what happened in the US?

Actually you’re probably right, it wouldn’t matter he’s too radical for what his party would be here. The media would fall along and the electorate would as well, giving the parties no choice.

I think there’s an awful lot of similarity in the voters of the US & UK tbh

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Eco said:

I'm not sure, but it has never made a lick of since to me. If we went to popular vote though, Trump would have never been elected...

I’ll quote you because @RandoEFC’s post was long and me quoting a long post might lead to me writing an even longer post and nobody wants that.

Most people I know here hate it. I could see why people would like it in states like Wyoming where you get 1 electoral vote per person... but I think places that their is disproportionately made weaker hate it.

As a foreigner, I’ve never understood what the point is. It’s an inherently undemocratic impediment to selecting a president.

[Inverted]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’ll quote you because @RandoEFC’s post was long and me quoting a long post might lead to me writing an even longer post and nobody wants that.

Most people I know here hate it. I could see why people would like it in states like Wyoming where you get 1 electoral vote per person... but I think places that their is disproportionately made weaker hate it.

As a foreigner, I’ve never understood what the point is. It’s an inherently undemocratic impediment to selecting a president.

That is exactly the point. 

The founders knew exactly what the consequences would be if you let the majority decide things and what it would mean for people like them. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Inverted said:

That is exactly the point. 

The founders knew exactly what the consequences would be if you let the majority decide things and what it would mean for people like them. 

Did they even need to do that? The system they made was already geared to only be democratic for landowners.

Maybe there were too many landowners for their liking?

I think back then, weirdly, it actually probably took a bit power away from the south. It was an agrarian society, so the plantation states were the economic powerhouses. And perversely slaves were counted toward a state’s population in terms of representatives/electoral college votes.

[Inverted]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Did they even need to do that? The system they made was already geared to only be democratic for landowners.

Maybe there were too many landowners for their liking?

I think back then, weirdly, it actually probably took a bit power away from the south. It was an agrarian society, so the plantation states were the economic powerhouses. And perversely slaves were counted toward a state’s population in terms of representatives/electoral college votes.

Yes it's also partly the fact that all of the states needed to agree to join, and so the smaller ones naturally would only join on the condition that in some way their voices count equally to what were the economic powerhouses at the time, like Virginia. 

[Azeem]

Why do they it a college and not school ?

[RandoEFC+]

I think 2016 Trump would have had a chance if there was a presidential election in the UK in 2016 but not now. There was a poll last week on who Britons would vote for in a presidential election here and it forecast that Biden would have won 650 constituencies out of 650. I have about as low an opinion as is possible of a certain demographic of the electorate in the UK and the media that feeds them, but I don't think I'd go that far. If he was running as a party leader of the Conservatives he could probably win a majority, yeah, if that's what you mean.

I'm not sure though. There have been government insiders over here that have said the feeling in Cabinet is actually that it was a bit of a toss up who they'd be better off with. Trump gives them a better chance of securing a trade deal with the US while Biden basically said we can fuck off if the Good Friday Agreement is compromised by Brexit, which it probably will be. On the other hand, they're aware of just how unpopular Trump is in the UK. When he visited last year in the run up to our election, there wasn't any pomp or photo ops in front of Number 10 because they were so worried about cuddling up to Trump having a negative impact on their prospects with the electorate. For all of the parallels that have been drawn between Trump and Johnson/Brexit, the extent to which our government has really aligned itself with him publicly is very limited because they know it doesn't play well at all. What has been noticeable are the Trumpian communication techniques deployed by Johnson's government, basically resorting to name-calling of immigrants, opposing politicians and other undesirables to play to their base and stoke up division. Also the stop at nothing to win approach, proroguing parliament, renaming their Twitter account to Fact Check UK, spamming social media with propaganda and refusing to admit it when the evidence of their lies and contradictions is played back to them on record. And using the social media accounts of Government departments for political messaging.

Anyway, back to Trump, yeah you're probably right about the media. If you told the Sun, Mail and Telegraph today that we want Trump in Number 10 after the 2024 general election I could see them getting pretty close to pulling it off. 

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Azeem said:

Why do they it a college and not school ?

To avoid getting shot. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Nevada is where Las Vegas is. Why the fuck are they so slow at counting?