Premier League Reject 'Project Big Picture' Plans

[The Artful Dodger]

4 minutes ago, Danny said:

Of course Newcastle, Everton and Leeds would have. They’ve been shite for decades. That final would have meant an upward trajectory for them, it’s the opposite for Arsenal. Rangers and Celtic...probably, massive clubs but more importantly don’t have anything to show for themselves these days at a competitive level.

United and Liverpool...I’m not sure they’d have tbh, not under the circumstances Arsenal were in. But getting away from that...it is mad that that is the stick you beat Arsenal with...but ignore the other points made

Arsenal hadn’t been in a European final for 15 years, there is no excuse.

Lets leave this there. If you really think Liverpool and Manchester United wouldn’t sell that final out then we live in different worlds. Their support is on another level to Arsenal’s in terms of travelling support. You might not like it but no London club is on their level. Arsenal are like Valencia to Liverpool and Man Utd being barce and real. Only Valencia have been to more European cup finals than Arsenal have.

[Danny]

Tbh in terms of fanbase I don’t know why we’re talking about Arsenal when Spurs are the biggest in terms of home and away support. Arsenal with more glory hunters though

[The Artful Dodger]

Spurs same thing, big English club like Villa, Everton, Newcastle. But London just does not have a massive club and that is because it doesn’t have the culture to produce one.

[Danny]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Arsenal hadn’t been in a European final for 15 years, there is no excuse.

Lets leave this there. If you really think Liverpool and Manchester United wouldn’t sell that final out then we live in different worlds. Their support is on another level to Arsenal’s in terms of travelling support. You might not like it but no London club is on their level. Arsenal are like Valencia to Liverpool and Man Utd being barce and real. Only Valencia have been to more European cup finals than Arsenal have.

I don’t know why I wouldn’t like it, I’ve said a billion times now that I agree with you. Repeating that Arsenal aren’t as big as those clubs doesn’t change the fact that there were reasons behind Arsenal not selling out Europe’s version of the Carling Cup in Azerbaijan, much like there were reasons Liverpool struggled to get more than 25k into Anfield to watch the same competition twice under Hodgson (not mentioning the further time’s they only hit around 30 something thousand).

I support a side that until very recently averaged 6 thousand a game, now we’re at a whopping 11 thousand (or zero if you want to be really pedantic). Ive no need or interest to take to heart how many glory hunters can fit into Old Trafford, Anfield or the Emirates.

But I’m obsessively making point-for-point arguments and you’re probably hammered and going to respond with the same so I’m gunna give it a rest and get an argument out of someone else, preferably @DeadLinesman as the reason Paul Pogba is better than Roy Keane is because he’s never ended a players career 

[The Artful Dodger]

Perfectly sober here, only takes one rational look to realise what i am saying is correct. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs...all much of a muchness. Big English clubs that don’t compare to true European giants. Didn’t realise how protective fans of smaller London clubs were of their bigger brothers though. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yeah I was about to say, that final was held in Azerbaijan... it wouldn't surprise me if neither us nor United didn't fill out that final. London, Manchester, and Liverpool are actually the 3 cities in the UK with the largest Armenian populations - and people with Armenian surnames are persona non grata there. And I realise that Armenians are a tiny minority of fans of Arsenal, Chelsea, United and Liverpool (because mathematically, they just have to be)... and I don't know if any of them wanted to travel to that final but were dissuaded. But I did hear of Arsenal fans being harassed at the airport for having "Armenian sounding surnames" like Trevelyan (a very British surname and not an Armenian one). That might play a factor.

But even more of a factor, tbh consider that it's the sort of place where you can go to prison just for saying the wrong things. Not exactly the greatest place in the world for a European final where you're going to have loads of drunk people that may do or say stupid things.

And yeah, Azerbaijan probably would treat foreigners differently to how they treat Azeris in Azerbaijan, in terms of letting them get away with shite people that live there wouldn't get away with. But it's a place where you can read a news article from a certain source and if you're caught you could get in some serious trouble... so I wouldn't blame fans from most countries in Europe being apprehensive about going to Baku.

[The Artful Dodger]

Also, in what world is Glasgow an imperialist city and London not? London owes its wealth and important to being the HQ of the British empire and all it plundered from the world. 

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Perfectly sober here, only takes one rational look to realise what i am saying is correct. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs...all much of a muchness. Big English clubs that don’t compare to true European giants. Didn’t realise how protective fans of smaller London clubs were of their bigger brothers though. 

Good to hear 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, The Artful Dodger said:

Also, in what world is Glasgow an imperialist city and London not? London owes its wealth and important to being the HQ of the British empire and all it plundered from the world. 

Tbf aren't most big cities in the UK imperialist cities? We did have a massive fucking empire after all 

[The Artful Dodger]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I was about to say, that final was held in Azerbaijan... it wouldn't surprise me if neither us nor United didn't fill out that final. London, Manchester, and Liverpool are actually the 3 cities in the UK with the largest Armenian populations - and people with Armenian surnames are persona non grata there. And I realise that Armenians are a tiny minority of fans of Arsenal, Chelsea, United and Liverpool (because mathematically, they just have to be)... and I don't know if any of them wanted to travel to that final but were dissuaded. But I did hear of Arsenal fans being harassed at the airport for having "Armenian sounding surnames" like Trevelyan (a very British surname and not an Armenian one). That might play a factor.

But even more of a factor, tbh consider that it's the sort of place where you can go to prison just for saying the wrong things. Not exactly the greatest place in the world for a European final where you're going to have loads of drunk people that may do or say stupid things.

And yeah, Azerbaijan probably would treat foreigners differently to how they treat Azeris in Azerbaijan, in terms of letting them get away with shite people that live there wouldn't get away with. But it's a place where you can read a news article from a certain source and if you're caught you could get in some serious trouble... so I wouldn't blame fans from most countries in Europe being apprehensive about going to Baku.

Arsenal complained about how small their allocation was and then didn’t sell it out.

 

[Danny]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I was about to say, that final was held in Azerbaijan... it wouldn't surprise me if neither us nor United didn't fill out that final. London, Manchester, and Liverpool are actually the 3 cities in the UK with the largest Armenian populations - and people with Armenian surnames are persona non grata there. And I realise that Armenians are a tiny minority of fans of Arsenal, Chelsea, United and Liverpool (because mathematically, they just have to be)... and I don't know if any of them wanted to travel to that final but were dissuaded. But I did hear of Arsenal fans being harassed at the airport for having "Armenian sounding surnames" like Trevelyan (a very British surname and not an Armenian one). That might play a factor.

But even more of a factor, tbh consider that it's the sort of place where you can go to prison just for saying the wrong things. Not exactly the greatest place in the world for a European final where you're going to have loads of drunk people that may do or say stupid things.

And yeah, Azerbaijan probably would treat foreigners differently to how they treat Azeris in Azerbaijan, in terms of letting them get away with shite people that live there wouldn't get away with. But it's a place where you can read a news article from a certain source and if you're caught you could get in some serious trouble... so I wouldn't blame fans from most countries in Europe being apprehensive about going to Baku.

Mkhitaryan couldn’t travel either because of it, I swear there was a backlash over that? Potentially involved a boycott? Could be wrong though.

[The Artful Dodger]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf aren't most big cities in the UK imperialist cities? We did have a massive fucking empire after all 

Yes but his point seemed to be that Glasgow especially was. London, like Glasgow and Liverpool, owes most of what it is to the suffering of people in foreign lands.

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Also, in what world is Glasgow an imperialist city and London not? London owes its wealth and important to being the HQ of the British empire and all it plundered from the world. 

As in Celtic/Rangers is essentially a rivalry made out of colonialism, which doesn’t exist elsewhere in the UK.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Arsenal complained about how small their allocation was and then didn’t sell it out.

 

I didn't know that... that's a bit funny.

Tbf, I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal miscalculated how popular a cup final would be in Baku.

1 minute ago, Danny said:

Mkhitaryan couldn’t travel either because of it, I swear there was a backlash over that? Potentially involved a boycott? Could be wrong though.

Yeah, there was definitely backlash because of that - I remember he wasn't allowed to participate at all really. Azerbaijan said they would have taken "sufficient steps to guarantee his safety"... but then look how they treated this guy after they assured Hungary he would serve the rest of his prison sentence (and his murders of Armenians was REALLY grizzly): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramil_Safarov and you can understand why neither he nor Arsenal felt satisfied with that guarantee.

[Dan+]

On 21/10/2020 at 00:11, Lucas said:

If this happened, it actually wouldn't surprise me if it created a window of opportunity for Celtic and Rangers to join the Premier League as replacements.

I actually think in that instance I'd take it.

I think the league would miss having the biggest clubs. I can't stand the lot of them but unfortunately the draw of the league plummets if they all leave it. That said there's a part of me that's that fed up of the glory hunting bellends and the owners of these clubs that maybe it's for the best and I think I could deal with it. I don't go and watch Leicester to watch the top players. I go to watch Leicester.

At least project big picture proves that safe standing and £20 away tickets are actually possible as things stand. They've at least given that away, so it should be held against the clubs if they fail to offer this upon return.

[DeadLinesman]

7 hours ago, Danny said:

But I’m obsessively making point-for-point arguments and you’re probably hammered and going to respond with the same so I’m gunna give it a rest and get an argument out of someone else, preferably @DeadLinesman as the reason Paul Pogba is better than Roy Keane is because he’s never ended a players career 

Pogba has made a career of riding the coat tails of the talented players around him. Don’t fucking start.

[Lucas]

7 hours ago, Dan said:

I actually think in that instance I'd take it.

I think the league would miss having the biggest clubs. I can't stand the lot of them but unfortunately the draw of the league plummets if they all leave it. That said there's a part of me that's that fed up of the glory hunting bellends and the owners of these clubs that maybe it's for the best and I think I could deal with it. I don't go and watch Leicester to watch the top players. I go to watch Leicester.

At least project big picture proves that safe standing and £20 away tickets are actually possible as things stand. They've at least given that away, so it should be held against the clubs if they fail to offer this upon return.

Yeah I agree.

I can tell you now, I would be gutted to lose the rivalries and the 'edge' that comes with playing some of the bigger teams, especially having not played them for so long.

But what I would say is this. 

Football has changed a lot from when we were last in the Premier League 16 years ago. And definitely not for the better.

Whilst it would take some getting used to, I could live with a new dawn of a league with none of them.

Having been in the Championship for so long and desperate to leave it, I can also respect and appreciate what a good league it was looking back. It's definitely humbled me as a fan with what happened to my club going from top to bottom and back up again.

I would see the 'new' PL as a glorified championship, much more even across the board, playing nost games you genuinely believed you could win or lose, and it would be refreshing to see a mixture of new sides compete. You could see it being absolutely bonkers and unpredictable.

We wouldn't necessarily see as dominant a performance as Liverpool or City, the standard would drop obviously, and the team that wins it may suffer 7 or 8 defeats as a result, but it would be more like the early years of the Premier League when it took over the old first division.

It was a breath of fresh air to see Leicester, Sheff Utd and Wolves mixing it round the Champions League spots last year whilst Man U, Spurs and Arsenal had dropped off. I could get on board with open leagues like that more than playing for 7th, 8th or 9th.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Sounds like some of you are all for a super league then?

[Danny]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Sounds like some of you are all for a super league then?

The one thing about Championship football is that you feel a lot closer to the game, the club, the players. It’s not really a massive product for television, more match going fans. And then you see the excitement the play-offs cause.

Personally I’d be against this rule but the Championship is more exciting to follow your team in than the Premier League...unless you’re winning a league title.

[Lucas]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Sounds like some of you are all for a super league then?

Do I want it to happen? No, definitely not. I like things as they are, there is no need for it and we should avoid it at all costs.

But if they go, and sometimes these things are out of your hands, as disappointing as it will be we will move on and ultimately it may work out to be more enjoyable if it's less predictable.

I would love there to be less dominance of a league and more of an open competition which is what could potentially happen. As I said in a previous post, I could see it being a glorified version of the championship. Would that be so bad? I don't necessarily think so.

The only thing I would add though is if they do go for it, don't let them back in if it goes tits up. Either that or make them start from the very bottom of the pyramid.

[Stan]

7 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Do I want it to happen? No, definitely not. I like things as they are, there is no need for it and we should avoid it at all costs.

But if they go, and sometimes these things are out of your hands, as disappointing as it will be we will move on and ultimately it may work out to be more enjoyable if it's less predictable.

I would love there to be less dominance of a league and more of an open competition which is what could potentially happen. As I said in a previous post, I could see it being a glorified version of the championship. Would that be so bad? I don't necessarily think so.

The only thing I would add though is if they do go for it, don't let them back in if it goes tits up. Either that or make them start from the very bottom of the pyramid.

Very much this. They can't have so much power so as to leave for better competition then come crawling back when it all goes tits up and they realise they're not as successful any more in that kind of competition. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I agree with that too. If they come crawling back because this was a stupid and unpopular plan that cost them a lot of money for little return... they shouldn’t get to come back and fuck up the top flight they left behind.

Its a bit hard to coordinate actual fan protests during covid. Particularly in the parts of the country with the strictest lockdowns.

So it’d have to be coordinated and (some might say) irritating campaigns to let FIFA, Liverpool, United, Real, Barca, etc... that we won’t be watching this project, that they’ll lose fans - local fans, the ones that produce the atmospheres that people like to watch on TV.

I think this would probably kill off football for me, tbh. At least for a few years before I turn to supporting Tranmere. But realistically, I think I wouldn’t be able to get back into it.

[Dan+]

I'm more and more thinking what we have now isn't sustainable. In-particular in the last five years I've noticed (and we've got a big part of responsibility to take for this here for winning the league) how many anti-sport people are actually within the game. It was the reaction from some quarters to us winning the league that I found the most depressing - it wasn't a "you're shit, lucky" etc... I can take that, but almost the belief that "how dare you take this away from the top clubs", I'll never forget what Charlie Stillitano said, the man behind the pre-season tournament, something along the lines of "the Leicester story is great but Manchester United should be in the Champions League, they create the most revenue" and whatnot, made me realise that there are powerful people within the sport that actively don't want competition, but more a procession. These people just simply don't get football. They are bad for the game. When they hold some sort of power in the sport, then it's always going to take a worrying turn.

I've been expecting this kind of thing for a long time. I really think it will eventually happen.

I feel like the 'big 6' departing the league would do a lot of good for the league in some ways, but at the same time football to me is about the journey to the top and it would means clubs like ours simply have no chance ever to get to it. I know we did it once, but we were an anomaly and it was such a big story for precisely that reason. Every other non 'big 6' club shouldn't be denied of that possibility either yet it's become increasingly obvious for me that that is exactly what plenty within the 'sport' actually want. They're a cancer on the game. It's gotten too big for its own good.

[Dan+]

Oh, and Leicester going and playing in Stillitano's tournament that very summer is one of the most spineless, awful things we have ever done as a club, to actually turn around and help out the cunt who wants clubs like ours an afterthought, not to mention we got battered twice. Absolutely unbelievable from us.

[LFCMike]