James Maddison - Spurs Complete Deal

[Dan+]

I'm quite confident that he doesn't join Newcastle this summer. I get the feeling they're quite a way off especially if they're still trying to pay us through Klarna.

[N U F C]

27 minutes ago, Stan said:

I think he's destined for a bigger club eventually. No disrespect. 

We'll leave it, thanks

 

None taken, but the potential of us over the next few years possibly looks more appealing than yours given the financial problems you’re having.

Time will tell matey.

[Stan]

Just now, N U F C said:

None taken, but the potential of us over the next few years possibly looks more appealing than yours given the financial problems you’re having.

Time will tell matey.

It's only the wages. We're not broke or skint. 

Just more prudent or shrewd etc. We have a whole host of players out of contract next season. The likes of Fofana or Tielemans will leave at some point giving us plenty of money back. Schmeichel now leaving frees up money to offer Maddison better terms. 

I don't think the financial issues are severely bad. We just don't go around splashing money around like Man City or Chelsea can/do. Having said that, your money is extortionately superior than most other clubs. But sometimes can depend on the player too. If Maddison wants to value trophies more than money, he's probably better off holding out for a better club next season or the season after. 

[N U F C]

Just now, Stan said:

It's only the wages. We're not broke or skint. 

Just more prudent or shrewd etc. We have a whole host of players out of contract next season. The likes of Fofana or Tielemans will leave at some point giving us plenty of money back. Schmeichel now leaving frees up money to offer Maddison better terms. 

I don't think the financial issues are severely bad. We just don't go around splashing money around like Man City or Chelsea can/do. Having said that, your money is extortionately superior than most other clubs. But sometimes can depend on the player too. If Maddison wants to value trophies more than money, he's probably better off holding out for a better club next season or the season after. 

Yeah I agree there.

I actually don’t think we will be challenging for anything except maybe the odd cup run for 4-5 years. Can see us both being around the same area of the table for a few seasons.

Money talks though for 99% of footballers.

[Honey Honey]

On 30/07/2022 at 14:54, LFCMike said:

What's that about?

The supporters trust request was ignored. I wasn't allowed my season ticket back. Along with several thousand other Ashley protestors we were sent into a dodgy raffle with all the band wagon jumpers for just 1000 tickets. 

We didn't protest quit because we were shit. We sat through years of worse. We quit thinking as soon as dignity was restored we'd be welcomed back. We weren't.

20 years going to the games every week, now have to fight for row Z scraps in a shitty traumatic online ticketing system that the Box Office is in denial is shite.

Will likely eventually come to terms with the loss but right now I can't help but feel I'd rather be back with my father in the stand than the club be bought by someone spending £60m on James Maddison if it means I can't be with him every week anymore.

[OrangeKhrush]

Leicester will keep him this season but next season will lose him for around 25-30m as he won't extend his contract and will walk next season.   Nobody wants to bid for Tielemans,  they want him to walk or Leicester to get desperate to get anything from him 

[Lucas]

Football is crazy isn't it. How can Maddison be worth more than Raphinha?

He's not even classified as an International, even if that is up for debate. But of course, he is English.

Very surprised if Newcastle paid £60m for him. Got to look elsewhere in Europe for a more economical option IMO.

The problem these days is, if a defender is on the move, everything is compared to Maguire's price and if a midfielder is linked, everything is compared to the Grealish fee. 

We both know each club paid stupidly over for each player because of how desperate they were and if Newcastle want to do that, fair enough but that's not their true worth and that isn't a barometer that should be constantly used in Football.

That said, no way in a million years should Leicester be selling to Newcastle. They are effectively competing in the same area of the league now, regardless of whether Newcastle are a bigger club or better off financially

On the pitch they still have much to prove and respect is earnt, not bought.

[Dan+]

5 hours ago, N U F C said:

None taken, but the potential of us over the next few years possibly looks more appealing than yours given the financial problems you’re having.

Time will tell matey.

I agree with you - but for me it's about the potential you have versus say, Arsenal. I'd begrudgingly accept if he went there. Newcastle would feel a slap in the face.

Selling Maddison to a side we've not finished below since 2014 sounds out a terrible message. Even with the money we're not exactly in a good position to get somebody in.

Lots of these deals for me hinge on what our contingency plan is. I'd like to hear how we plan on using the money. If we sold Maddison for £60mil and were confident we'd be able to get in a replacement for him and an upgrade elsewhere in the team then I'd say fair fucks, but it's very hard to do that at this point of the window particularly with people knowing we're desperate. Leicester entered this window in a weak position and we were way too public about this. It's also going to be extremely hard to get a player of Maddison's level as well. He was exceptional last season. He largely carried us.

[Stan]

10 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Leicester will keep him this season but next season will lose him for around 25-30m as he won't extend his contract and will walk next season.   Nobody wants to bid for Tielemans,  they want him to walk or Leicester to get desperate to get anything from him 

Why won't he extend his contract? 

[Stan]

Newcastle's 2nd bid was only £40m apparently. 

[N U F C]

Pointless.

[OrangeKhrush]

Just now, N U F C said:

Pointless.

I agree, may as well try a loan to buy for Romo Werner and move on to Harvey Barnes or Cornet

[Stan]

Let's hope that's the end of this small saga then. 

'won't be pressured into paying over the odds'.

Bye then! 

 

[N U F C]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Let's hope that's the end of this small saga then. 

'won't be pressured into paying over the odds'.

Bye then! 

 

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that we aren’t going to be pressured into paying over the odds tbf, not that I think £60m is extortionate for Maddison anyway.

[Danny]

12 hours ago, Lucas said:

Football is crazy isn't it. How can Maddison be worth more than Raphinha?

16 assists and 18 goals in all competitions compared to 11 goals and 3 assists. English tax will play a part too, but a combined 34 goal contribution far outweighs a combined 14 goal contribution.

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, N U F C said:

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that we aren’t going to be pressured into paying over the odds tbf, not that I think £60m is extortionate for Maddison anyway.

Oh I agree. It's good that you're set in those particular principles for now. 

[Stan]

12 hours ago, Lucas said:

Football is crazy isn't it. How can Maddison be worth more than Raphinha?

He's not even classified as an International, even if that is up for debate. But of course, he is English.

Very surprised if Newcastle paid £60m for him. Got to look elsewhere in Europe for a more economical option IMO.

The problem these days is, if a defender is on the move, everything is compared to Maguire's price and if a midfielder is linked, everything is compared to the Grealish fee. 

We both know each club paid stupidly over for each player because of how desperate they were and if Newcastle want to do that, fair enough but that's not their true worth and that isn't a barometer that should be constantly used in Football.

That said, no way in a million years should Leicester be selling to Newcastle. They are effectively competing in the same area of the league now, regardless of whether Newcastle are a bigger club or better off financially

On the pitch they still have much to prove and respect is earnt, not bought.

 

2 minutes ago, Danny said:

16 assists and 18 goals in all competitions compared to 11 goals and 3 assists. English tax will play a part too, but a combined 34 goal contribution far outweighs a combined 14 goal contribution.

Agree with @Danny. Last season was Maddison's best. Less injury-prone, more consistent and delivered in front of goal. He probably added a lot of value to his name based on last season while other players literally fell apart with injury.

And while I know it's not all about stats, they do speak for themselves.

Not to mention they play in distinctly different positions. Raphinha is pretty much an out-and-out left-footed right winger. Maddison is primarily a central attacking midfielder. 

Although I would agree with you @Lucas that prices these days in general are crazy. Maguire shouldn't be the barometer, but having watched Fofana and Maguire in the same set-up/club, it's quite clear to see a) who is better and b) who has clearly more potential to go on to be a seriously quality defender. I think we're well within our rights to ask for £80m+ for Fofana. Also agree about selling to Newcastle right now. Newcastle will no doubt be better financially and gain that stability, but I would imagine a player still sees clubs like Man Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal/Tottenham and of course Liverpool/Man City as a step up as opposed to Newcastle currently.

Perhaps in 3-4 years that might change - Newcastle's stock will rise the more they spend (if they spend it well and not just because they can) and they will be attractive on the pitch and not just financially off it.  

[Danny]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

 

Agree with @Danny. Last season was Maddison's best. Less injury-prone, more consistent and delivered in front of goal. He probably added a lot of value to his name based on last season while other players literally fell apart with injury.

And while I know it's not all about stats, they do speak for themselves.

Not to mention they play in distinctly different positions. Raphinha is pretty much an out-and-out left-footed right winger. Maddison is primarily a central attacking midfielder. 

Although I would agree with you @Lucas that prices these days in general are crazy. Maguire shouldn't be the barometer, but having watched Fofana and Maguire in the same set-up/club, it's quite clear to see a) who is better and b) who has clearly more potential to go on to be a seriously quality defender. I think we're well within our rights to ask for £80m+ for Fofana. Also agree about selling to Newcastle right now. Newcastle will no doubt be better financially and gain that stability, but I would imagine a player still sees clubs like Man Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal/Tottenham and of course Liverpool/Man City as a step up as opposed to Newcastle currently.

Perhaps in 3-4 years that might change - Newcastle's stock will rise the more they spend (if they spend it well and not just because they can) and they will be attractive on the pitch and not just financially off it.  

Clubs like Leicester and Leeds should be looking to fleece bigger clubs for all they're worth. There is plenty of talent that is undervalued or just correctly valued away from the market's madness that you can sign if you put the appropriate work into. Cucurella could have been signed by Chelsea or City last season for £16m. Now it's £50m+.

Fofana could have been signed for £30m-£40m and now it's double at the very least. Ultimately if the big clubs want to sign Premier League proven players they will need to pay the money or wait their contracts out, they play on an unfair playing field financially so it's only right to charge them more.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, N U F C said:

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that we aren’t going to be pressured into paying over the odds tbf, not that I think £60m is extortionate for Maddison anyway.

it derives from no objective value system existing in football.  Baseball is very sophisticated statistically and can predict performance within margin of error, there are now systems that value players based on non subjective factors to determine trade value these include

Statistical track record and trend. this include offensive(hitting) and defensive(fielding) numbers which is also position orientated ie a average hitting catcher who is exceptional behind the plate is still values more than a slugging catcher who can't catch.  conversely a slugging first baseman is more valuable than a defensive first baseman that can't slug. e.g. Matt Olson slugs and is elite with the glove which is why with 1 year left he netted a high prospect value return for short control.  the braves then went and signed him to a 4 year deal after the trade to replace Freeman.

age

age regression (28-32 regarded peak, but regression from 28 to 32 is equated to over 1WAR per season.  WAR is wins against replacement 0-1 WAR is replacement level, 9 WAR is generational talent, 5-8 elite, 3-4 is good, 1-2 is above average)

controllable years (rookies have cheaper control with arbitration only kicking in year 3 of 6)

value of control (big contract and mediocre numbers equal poor value) free agent duds that are on poor contracts while delivering nowhere near the performance levels they had entering free agency equates to negative value 

injury history particularly pitchers.

positional value, first base, RF and DH have little value, Catcher, Shortstop and Centerfield are premium positions.

this is why teams like the Astros keep being good by managing their roster well and make smart decisions to replace them within means.   while the angels who have arguably the best player ever in Mike trout can't field a good team because their payroll is congested with pathetic contracts they can't move off.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

football has hit an inflation patch which was created by smaller or selling clubs ripping off teams like Chelsea and City who paid without resolve.   the net result is teams at the bottom paying exorbitant fees on players that 4-5 years ago would have cost 5mil now go for 25m.   the net result is bust when it doesn't work.   

hard caps are needed soon like baseball salary caps and even third party objective valuations needed or football is going to go mega bust as it is unsustainable.

[Lucas]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

16 assists and 18 goals in all competitions compared to 11 goals and 3 assists. English tax will play a part too, but a combined 34 goal contribution far outweighs a combined 14 goal contribution.

I get your arguement but for me, that's not a true reflection of both players and I think we both know that. Stats can be incredibly misleading and skewed to suit any arguement.

Maddison had 18 goals and 12 assists across 53 appearances. 

That's not only 17 more appearances than Raphinha but you are also factoring a European competition that is the equivalent of the League Cup for the best part of it, not to mention the fact Raphinha literally had to do it all himself in just the Premier League due to the disruption of injuries across our team and what little support he had in quality. The percentage of his contribution to our goals is exactly a third. Can you imagine what he coukd contribute in the Leicester team?

I'm interested to see how Raphinha does at Barcelona, especially in the Champions League and World Cup where he has the luxury of better players round him, that will be the yard stick to really measure his ability but for me.

A current first team international for Brazil as well, I'd rate him far higher but I also think I am just bitter we let him go for lower than his worth. He'll be an £80m player after the World Cup, absolutely guarantee it.

P.S I don't wish to derail the thread so maybe it's best I park my arguement there 

[OrangeKhrush]

33 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I get your arguement but for me, that's not a true reflection of both players and I think we both know that. Stats can be incredibly misleading and skewed to suit any arguement.

Maddison had 18 goals and 12 assists across 53 appearances. 

That's not only 17 more appearances than Raphinha but you are also factoring a European competition that is the equivalent of the League Cup for the best part of it, not to mention the fact Raphinha literally had to do it all himself in just the Premier League due to the disruption of injuries across our team and what little support he had in quality. The percentage of his contribution to our goals is exactly a third. Can you imagine what he coukd contribute in the Leicester team?

I'm interested to see how Raphinha does at Barcelona, especially in the Champions League and World Cup where he has the luxury of better players round him, that will be the yard stick to really measure his ability but for me.

A current first team international for Brazil as well, I'd rate him far higher but I also think I am just bitter we let him go for lower than his worth. He'll be an £80m player after the World Cup, absolutely guarantee it.

P.S I don't wish to derail the thread so maybe it's best I park my arguement there 

 

man city did it again paying over the top for Phillips just because they can.   Phillips regressed hard and was injured often.   His numbers needed more inquest into what you are paying for but city just aid this new rip off generation.   Aronson cost you 25mil when 5 years ago he would have cost 5m or there about meaning teams without city money take more financial risk just on average.  

the money has gotten out of hand and the blame lies at clubs treating players like commodities

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Lucas said:

I get your arguement but for me, that's not a true reflection of both players and I think we both know that. Stats can be incredibly misleading and skewed to suit any arguement.

Maddison had 18 goals and 12 assists across 53 appearances. 

That's not only 17 more appearances than Raphinha but you are also factoring a European competition that is the equivalent of the League Cup for the best part of it, not to mention the fact Raphinha literally had to do it all himself in just the Premier League due to the disruption of injuries across our team and what little support he had in quality. The percentage of his contribution to our goals is exactly a third. Can you imagine what he coukd contribute in the Leicester team?

I'm interested to see how Raphinha does at Barcelona, especially in the Champions League and World Cup where he has the luxury of better players round him, that will be the yard stick to really measure his ability but for me.

A current first team international for Brazil as well, I'd rate him far higher but I also think I am just bitter we let him go for lower than his worth. He'll be an £80m player after the World Cup, absolutely guarantee it.

P.S I don't wish to derail the thread so maybe it's best I park my arguement there 

Tbh I would say that Maddison won't go for much more than £60m due to being in the last two years of his contract, but if he did go for close to double what you've sold Raphinha for then it's more an indication of your club's ability to negotiate than anything. But personally I think he will go for around the same price.

[Dan+]

10 hours ago, Danny said:

16 assists and 18 goals in all competitions compared to 11 goals and 3 assists. English tax will play a part too, but a combined 34 goal contribution far outweighs a combined 14 goal contribution.

Yep. I don't think it's outrageous at all that Maddison could go for more. I rate both.

[Stan]

Shock, all the journos were chatting shite.