UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Stan said:

Says more about you than anyone else really.

He's a twat. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thought maybe he's a nice guy just with different views. But he really is just a nasty peice of work. 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Danny said:

England really is done for, time for Scotland get out of this mess

I don't think the conservatives will privatise the NHS I think a lot of it is propaganda and being over exaggerated. There would be riots on the street. But if it did happen I would seriously consider immagrating

[The Artful Dodger]

40 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

It had everything to do with Corbyn. He’s been utterly rejected twice now and so have his policies. Plenty of evidence to suggest that whilst campaigning, members of the public said they would not vote labour directly because of him. Brexit also a massive issue of course, but to say it has little to do with his leadership is nonsensical. 

The problem with politics in general in many countries is historical. Why must it be one party or another? Is there ever going to be realistic change with the same old parties? The fact constituencies can go 50/70 years without any change is fucking embarrassing.

Corbyn's the only Labour leader for a generation that has actively challenged the economic dogma that has devastated this country, left millions living in shells of towns with no purpose or reason for being.

Corbyn isn't popular for many reasons and he should go, but if Labour abandon their opposition to ultra free market economics, again, the ultimate result will be far worse. This election was about Brexit, Brexit happened because of what I said above, the left behind towns and areas so decimated by how we run our economy. The only way to fix this country is to challenge that, I won't change that view Labour shouldn't just go populist because they've lost an election. Change the messenger, not the message.

Edited December 13, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Inverted]

My seat went SNP, think SNP have them them all bar a few Tory and one Lib Dem and one Labour. 

I dont think Scottish and English people are similar enough any more to be in the same country. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Just now, Inverted said:

My seat went SNP, think SNP have them them all bar a few Tory and one Lib Dem and one Labour. 

I dont think Scottish and English people are similar enough any more to be in the same country. 

Yes, Scotland should leave now. Do whatever it takes, protests, riots. You're being held hostage by a nation with an identity crisis. 

[Stan]

How quickly would Scottish independence happen given last night's results?

That would harm Labour a lot wouldn't it, losing any kind of Scottish vote should they leave the UK?

[RandoEFC+]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

He's a twat. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thought maybe he's a nice guy just with different views. But he really is just a nasty peice of work. 

I don't think that's true. Fairy has taken his fair share of shite from people over the years calling him a racist based on a few daft comments but mainly because he voted Brexit and Conservative.

The Conservatives are in now. We're all in this together whichever way we voted. It's been heartbreaking seeing how people have been divided over the past few years, you hear stories about people falling out with their relatives over voting different ways over Brexit. The Conservatives are in charge for the next few years and they're taking us out of the EU. Now is the time to stop calling each other twats and racists and lefty bastards and try to muddle through as a functioning society somehow.

[Inverted]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

How quickly would Scottish independence happen given last night's results?

That would harm Labour a lot wouldn't it, losing any kind of Scottish vote should they leave the UK?

Not really. They could have won every seat in Scotland and we'd be staring at exactly the same situation today. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't think that's true. Fairy has taken his fair share of shite from people over the years calling him a racist based on a few daft comments but mainly because he voted Brexit and Conservative.

The Conservatives are in now. We're all in this together whichever way we voted. It's been heartbreaking seeing how people have been divided over the past few years, you hear stories about people falling out with their relatives over voting different ways over Brexit. The Conservatives are in charge for the next few years and they're taking us out of the EU. Now is the time to stop calling each other twats and racists and lefty bastards and try to muddle through as a functioning society somehow.

I'm not basing what I said just on him voting conservatives. I've known loads of nice people who vote conservative. I read lots of his posts on here and I just think he is a nasty peice of work 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Stan said:

How quickly would Scottish independence happen given last night's results?

That would harm Labour a lot wouldn't it, losing any kind of Scottish vote should they leave the UK?

Are we gonna call it scexit 

[MUFC]

I best start saving up in case I need to go to A&E.

[RandoEFC+]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I'm not basing what I said just on him voting conservatives. I've known loads of nice people who vote conservative. I read lots of his posts on here and I just think he is a nasty peice of work 

Well I don't think that's true. Part of what he says on here is a reaction to people calling him names first. I don't know whether the chicken or the egg came first but any name calling by anyone isn't helpful now. I'm not defending some of the things he's said in this thread, I've challenged them myself, but challenge his words if you disagree with them rather than challenging him as an overall person if you get what I'm saying.

[DeadLinesman]

24 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Corbyn's the only Labour leader for a generation that has actively challenged the economic dogma that has devastated this country, left millions living in shells of towns with no purpose or reason for being.

Corbyn isn't popular for many reasons and he should go, but if Labour abandon their opposition to ultra free market economics, again, the ultimate result will be far worse. This election was about Brexit, Brexit happened because of what I said above, the left behind towns and areas so decimated by how we run our economy. The only way to fix this country is to challenge that, I won't change that view Labour shouldn't just go populist because they've lost an election. Change the messenger, not the message.

I don’t disagree with that. Going by your last sentence though, if you’re changing the messenger but not the message, you’re going to get the same result surely? That is if it’s not the fault of the messenger.......

[DeadLinesman]

56 minutes ago, Danny said:

The thing with Corbyn is how can you genuinely say you could never vote for him and vote for Johnson? Whether people like Corbyn or not Johnson is catagorically more of a cunt.

That’s your opinion though. Many people will hate Corbyn far more than Johnson, and for many different reasons. Many of them will have course been led by the media and manipulated.

[Guest]

So if Scotland leaves the UK it is gonna be quite tricky isn't it? Because they won't be able to leave before we leave the EU so I guess they will have to reaply for membership? Will the EU make it easier for them to rejoin because they voted to stay but were controlled by the English vote?

[Inverted]

The entire problem is that every idea of political logic no longer seems to apply in England. You have miners' sons going out and voting for the people who sent military men out to batter and brutalise their fathers. And why? 

Ultimately, to get Brexit done. And why do they want Brexit? You'd get a million different answers and I'm not sure any of them would make sense. 

Labour had the challenge of needing to strategise a way of appealing to these people, without being an outright pro-Brexit party. They had to think of why they were so determined about Brexit - what the root causes of their ideas were. 

The Tories didn't have to think about the why, they just focused on selling them Brexit. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

That’s your opinion though. Many people will hate Corbyn far more than Johnson, and for many different reasons. Many of them will have course been led by the media and manipulated.

I'm not sure if either of them are cunts as in bad people. Bad leaders maybe but there are loads of good people who would still be terrible leaders. I relate to Corbyn more than Johnson but I still think Johnson wants what he thinks is best for the country.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Inverted said:

The entire problem is that every idea of political logic no longer seems to apply in England. You have miners' sons going out and voting for the people who sent military men out to batter and brutalise their fathers. And why? 

Ultimately, to get Brexit done. And why do they want Brexit? You'd get a million different answers and I'm not sure any of them would make sense. 

Labour had the challenge of needing to strategise a way of appealing to these people, without being an outright pro-Brexit party. They had to think of why they were so determined about Brexit - what the root causes of their ideas were. 

The Tories didn't have to think about the why, they just focused on selling them Brexit. 

I think labour needed to be clearer on why they wanted another referendum. I spoke to people on a second referendum who said we had a referendum we need to get it done why have a second. But when I said to them that we were told we would get a deal that would benefit the UK and what we had was a deal that possibly doesn't or no deal a lot of them saw what I was saying. There are loads of people out there who understand that but still feel it isn't right to have one. But there are also lots of people who hadn't thought about it like that and if you can get your point across to them it can make a huge difference. I think sometimes in elections if your point is easier to get across you have a serious advantage. In general I think people are reasonable. 

[DeadLinesman]

7 minutes ago, Inverted said:

The entire problem is that every idea of political logic no longer seems to apply in England. You have miners' sons going out and voting for the people who sent military men out to batter and brutalise their fathers. And why? 

Because they’re voting for themselves and not their fathers? Because times have changed?
 

I’m merely playing devils advocate here. I’ll go back to my last point. What’s the point of even having a vote if you’re simply expected to vote the same as your parents or everyone else in the immediate vicinity? Does everyone HAVE to vote labour or conservative? There’s never going to be an alternative to either party unless voting habits start changing. That starts with not simply voting based on family or regional loyalty.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Well I don't think that's true. Part of what he says on here is a reaction to people calling him names first. I don't know whether the chicken or the egg came first but any name calling by anyone isn't helpful now. I'm not defending some of the things he's said in this thread, I've challenged them myself, but challenge his words if you disagree with them rather than challenging him as an overall person if you get what I'm saying.

Thats nice that you think like that. I think it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt. But for me personally I gave him the benefit of the doubt and he has proven to me he's a cunt. 

[Inverted]

10 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Because they’re voting for themselves and not their fathers? Because times have changed?
 

I’m merely playing devils advocate here. I’ll go back to my last point. What’s the point of even having a vote if you’re simply expected to vote the same as your parents or everyone else in the immediate vicinity? Does everyone HAVE to vote labour or conservative? There’s never going to be an alternative to either party unless voting habits start changing. That starts with not simply voting based on family or regional loyalty.

Have they changed that much though? Britain is not that socially mobile a country. If your dad was a miner then you're not likely going to be much further up in society than he was, particularly in these remote post-industrial slagheaps. What do the Tories have to offer to the people near the bottom of the pyramid? If anything, their absolute disdain for ordinary people has been made even more obvious than ever. 

They're voting for themselves, but what do they want? Again - Brexit, seemingly. And what benefit to themselves will Brexit bring? The absolute square root of fuck of all.

As for the disdain about the two party system, it's a reasonable gripe, but fundamentally you're never going to change it until you win within a two party system. If you hate being forced to pick between two, that's reasonable, but nonetheless if you want to change it, you'll have to pick between the two. Once you win, you can put in whatever electoral system you like.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Inverted

[Stan]

19 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Ultimately, to get Brexit done. And why do they want Brexit? You'd get a million different answers and I'm not sure any of them would make sense. 

 

This is the other thing now which worries me.

I don't think anyone is still clear on what Brexit will be attained and consequently, how each different type of Brexit will affect UK - for better of for worse.

Obviously now Boris has his majority it'll be much easier to push things through but I'm still at a loss on what happens after 31st January 2020 and also what happens at the end of Dec 2020? 

[RandoEFC+]

Swinson steps down, no shocks there. The Lib Dems reckon that the Brexit Party pulling out of Conservative seats pole-axed them but there's a lot more to it than that. It's been a dismal campaign for them. The revoke policy got them a short term kick in the opinion polls from Remainers desperate for Labour to go full Remain, but the same old story of people voting Labour as they're the only governing alternative to the Conservatives which the Liberal Democrats probably won't ever be under this system bit them in the arse.

I also think they will continue to suffer from the coalition for decades. It's not just people who feel betrayed by the broken promises of Clegg's Lib Dems, anyone who remembers that will remember that whenever you think one of the minor parties could have a genuine say as part of a coalition, you're kidding yourself under most circumstances.

A lot of people are hailing the fact that Swinson has lost her seat. I didn't like her but I feel a bit sorry for her to be honest. I thought she had potential. They made a mistake by fielding her in basically every TV debate and interview when the whole presidential approach clearly wasn't doing them any favours. They have a lot of other decent talent they could have put on show.

[Stan]

29 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

A lot of people are hailing the fact that Swinson has lost her seat

Seen a lot of reaction online about Sturgeon's reaction to SNP taking Swinson's seat.

She celebrated wildly. Why the fuck wouldn't she?! Her party has just regained a seat from another party, more specifically another party's leader. Of course she's going to celebrate it! It'd be bloody weird if she didn't.

[Guest]

I do wonder if brexit could cause some good attitude changes. It's gonna be harder for people to blame immigrants for their own problems. They can't blame the EU once it has no control over us. It could force people to except more responsibility and actually decrease racist attitude's.