Harvey Barnes Joins Newcastle

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

That’s great, ta mate. A strong correlation between the team winning and Barnes playing well.  Dependent on his right foot, and a clutch player. 

It's quite ironic though that in the worst season the club had in recent history, he was our top goalscorer. Not too shabby for a winger. As much as it says how much his goalscoring has improved, it does go to show how clinically shite we were in other areas of the pitch. Seemed to take on a lot of the responsibility to get goals, an over-reliance perhaps, and maybe that pressure sometimes affected performances.

This might give some indication about his assists, or impact on a game (I don't think we could delve deep into the type of opponent, home or away etc):

 

'Shot-creating actions' (SCA) per 90 has decreased in the past few years. I would personally attribute that to a change in tactic under Rodgers to be cautious, passive, overly defensive.

'Goal-creating actions' (GCA) per 90 follows a similar trend but perhaps not as significant. Most of the chances come from open play, as opposed to dead-ball situations (0). 

 

The below is also a good metric to see where he ranks for left-sided attacking wingers:

Very high for non-penalty goals in the past calendar year compared to other players in a top-5 league, CL & Europa League.

A comparison to right-footed left-wingers:

Rashford (much better player obviously):

 

Wilf Zaha - much more aggressive and speedier, better at taking on players but not as good goal-scoring/end contribution.

 

 

Not gonna bother comparing Grealish because his stats far out-perform Barnes, not to mention the calibre of player he plays with...

[Spike]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

It's quite ironic though that in the worst season the club had in recent history, he was our top goalscorer. Not too shabby for a winger. As much as it says how much his goalscoring has improved, it does go to show how clinically shite we were in other areas of the pitch. Seemed to take on a lot of the responsibility to get goals, an over-reliance perhaps, and maybe that pressure sometimes affected performances.

This might give some indication about his assists, or impact on a game (I don't think we could delve deep into the type of opponent, home or away etc):

 

'Shot-creating actions' (SCA) per 90 has decreased in the past few years. I would personally attribute that to a change in tactic under Rodgers to be cautious, passive, overly defensive.

'Goal-creating actions' (GCA) per 90 follows a similar trend but perhaps not as significant. Most of the chances come from open play, as opposed to dead-ball situations (0). 

 

The below is also a good metric to see where he ranks for left-sided attacking wingers:

Very high for non-penalty goals in the past calendar year compared to other players in a top-5 league, CL & Europa League.

A comparison to right-footed left-wingers:

Rashford (much better player obviously):

 

Wilf Zaha - much more aggressive and speedier, better at taking on players but not as good goal-scoring/end contribution.

 

 

Not gonna bother comparing Grealish because his stats far out-perform Barnes, not to mention the calibre of player he plays with...

Super interesting actually. You can tell from this he is very much a forward, and not a transitionary player. Strong shooting and dribbling, not much of a passer, strong in aerial situations, you could almost mistake he stats for a centre forward. You could make a case he has the tool set to be a strong second striker, or  centre forward. I’d have to believe there is more room for goal scoring potential as well.

[Stan]

17 minutes ago, Spike said:

Super interesting actually. You can tell from this he is very much a forward, and not a transitionary player. Strong shooting and dribbling, not much of a passer, strong in aerial situations, you could almost mistake he stats for a centre forward. You could make a case he has the tool set to be a strong second striker, or  centre forward. I’d have to believe there is more room for goal scoring potential as well.

Yep, good case to be made for it. In his early days his shooting was lacking somewhat, plenty of shots straight at the keeper and lacked composure. That's definitely improved over the years as he's developed and become more influential.

There's definitely more room for goals potential. Which is main reason why I think he'll fit right in at Newcastle if they play how they for the past season. 

 

And because he was mentioned earlier in the thread, this is Moussa Diaby who's valued at approx £50m (apparently).

 

Diaby is probably better as an out-and-out winger when it comes to attacking. But again the caveat being different styles of play at Leverkusen compared to Leicester, and significantly better players at Leverkusen too I'd argue. 

[Dan+]

Sorry @Spike I didn't actually disagree with what you were saying, I've for some reason taken what you said as it being meaningless, when for me I think those numbers demonstrated that he was, at absolute worst, competent at this level.

I'm thinking as a regular in Howe's side he would take it up a level.

He wasn't involved in a behind closed doors friendly with Peterborough today so he's basically off.

[Spike]

18 minutes ago, Dan said:

Sorry @Spike I didn't actually disagree with what you were saying, I've for some reason taken what you said as it being meaningless, when for me I think those numbers demonstrated that he was, at absolute worst, competent at this level.

I'm thinking as a regular in Howe's side he would take it up a level.

He wasn't involved in a behind closed doors friendly with Peterborough today so he's basically off.

ah that makes sense mate. To me, it was more like I don’t know much about this player so the numbers don’t really explain that much to me. For you it is different because you’ve watch him many more times over the seasons, but I was unfamiliar besides knowing his name.

[Reluctant Striker]

The problem for Leicester is that in 1 season they have gone from multiple players they could have demanded £50m+ for, to a side ripe with bargains. The biggest collection of reasonable level talent to be relegated for quite a few years. Already Tielemans free & Maddison reduced price.

Sounds lots to me like Barnes has chosen Newcastle, or perhaps Leicester are trying to get a 2nd bidder involved. I'll likely be the odd one out here, but if Villa are breaking their Buendia transfer record, I would hope it would be for someone that would genuinely help them to the level Klopp suspects is possible. It would certainly seem a bit crazy to me if Barnes goes for more than Maddison.

[Stan]

28 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

The problem for Leicester is that in 1 season they have gone from multiple players they could have demanded £50m+ for, to a side ripe with bargains. The biggest collection of reasonable level talent to be relegated for quite a few years. Already Tielemans free & Maddison reduced price.

Sounds lots to me like Barnes has chosen Newcastle, or perhaps Leicester are trying to get a 2nd bidder involved. I'll likely be the odd one out here, but if Villa are breaking their Buendia transfer record, I would hope it would be for someone that would genuinely help them to the level Klopp suspects is possible. It would certainly seem a bit crazy to me if Barnes goes for more than Maddison.

Maddison only had 1 year left of his contract, compared to Barnes who has 1 year extra.

But you're right, we've lost players for bargain fees, in comparison to what we could have commanded had we stayed up. That's the price of relegation on top of dropping down a level, sadly.

So much value just plummeted.

[Dan+]

1 hour ago, Reluctant Striker said:

The problem for Leicester is that in 1 season they have gone from multiple players they could have demanded £50m+ for, to a side ripe with bargains. The biggest collection of reasonable level talent to be relegated for quite a few years. Already Tielemans free & Maddison reduced price.

Sounds lots to me like Barnes has chosen Newcastle, or perhaps Leicester are trying to get a 2nd bidder involved. I'll likely be the odd one out here, but if Villa are breaking their Buendia transfer record, I would hope it would be for someone that would genuinely help them to the level Klopp suspects is possible. It would certainly seem a bit crazy to me if Barnes goes for more than Maddison.

Tielemans and Soyuncu going for nothing is absolutely ridiculous. We basically deserted our model which was selling one player a summer. We stunted it and have paid the price.

Summer 2021 was damaging - I'd have actually sold both of those two in that window if neither were willing to sign. We'd have gotten good fees and been able to replenish. Maddison likewise in 2022. We've been playing catchup.

We supposedly according to The Athletic stopped our outgoings into 2021 because we didn't think we'd get value for them post covid whilst then going and paying £15mil for Jannik Vestergaard  

[Stan]

Sounds like this could be done by the weekend. Up to £40m initial fee. 

Just want it over with to be honest so that both clubs can just move on and get on with the rest of the transfers. Be good if we can get a few more in with this money before the start of the season. 

[Honey Honey]

There is a lot of competition for just 2 places, especially with Tonali joining as that increases the liklihood that Joelinton or Willock will be competing for a wide spot regularly.

You get a few starts and 10 minute cameos to earn a starting place. Or to win it back after an injury. Then you've got to hold it. That proved too difficult for Saint Maximin with his regular injuries. 

Barnes has a better chance.

[Dan+]

Now we need to do something we never do and buy some good wide forwards. We're going to need probably 3.

[OrangeKhrush]

since 2019 in only the Prem:

ASM: 111 games, 12 goals, 19 assists

Barnes: 137 games, 35 goals, 23 assists

I think we are upgrading to a player that plays to our system. ASM doesn't fit us at all.

[Dan+]

 

£38mil.

[Dan+]

26 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

since 2019 in only the Prem:

ASM: 111 games, 12 goals, 19 assists

Barnes: 137 games, 35 goals, 23 assists

I think we are upgrading to a player that plays to our system. ASM doesn't fit us at all.

For pure productivity it's an insult to even compare the two. Saint-Maximin is a more fun player to watch but I can imagine he's infuriating too.

Did see somebody make a good point about Barnes that I agree with - that he's become less 'fun' post injury. He used to be quite a frequent dribbler but that's come right down. He seems more of a finisher now.

[OrangeKhrush]

42 minutes ago, Dan said:

For pure productivity it's an insult to even compare the two. Saint-Maximin is a more fun player to watch but I can imagine he's infuriating too.

Did see somebody make a good point about Barnes that I agree with - that he's become less 'fun' post injury. He used to be quite a frequent dribbler but that's come right down. He seems more of a finisher now.

his directness will be liked.  He gets behind and into space well, something we lack in

[Dave]

 

 

[Honey Honey]

I've got to defend ASM from the Wikipedia context free post mortem happening here.

He played for a Steve Bruce team for 2 and a half years. Him and Dubravka kept us up and kept Bruce in a job. Last season he absolutely rinsed Man City, made their backline look lower league, then he got injured and by the time he came back we were on a winning streak so he couldn't get in the team. He struggled with fitness. Then later in the season when he got back in the line up again he's tearing Man Utd and West Ham apart and then he gets injured again.

He just couldn't get the momentum under Howe because of his fitness. 

Almiron just had a great "stats" season, better than anything Saint Maximin got near but that doesn't make him a better player.

Remember this under Bruce... 

2019/2020

Newcastle without ASM

Played 14 Won 1 Drawn 5 Lost 8 Points 8 Goals For 9 Goals Against 26

Newcastle with ASM

Played 18 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 4 Points 34 Goals For 24 Goals Against 17

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Honey Honey said:

I've got to defend ASM from the Wikipedia context free post mortem happening here.

He played for a Steve Bruce team for 2 and a half years. Him and Dubravka kept us up and kept Bruce in a job. Last season he absolutely rinsed Man City, made their backline look lower league, then he got injured and by the time he came back we were on a winning streak so he couldn't get in the team. He struggled with fitness. Then later in the season when he got back in the line up again he's tearing Man Utd and West Ham apart and then he gets injured again.

He just couldn't get the momentum under Howe because of his fitness. 

Almiron just had a great "stats" season, better than anything Saint Maximin got near but that doesn't make him a better player.

Remember this under Bruce... 

2019/2020

Newcastle without ASM

Played 14 Won 1 Drawn 5 Lost 8 Points 8 Goals For 9 Goals Against 26

Newcastle with ASM

Played 18 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 4 Points 34 Goals For 24 Goals Against 17

I don't think it is any slight on Maxi, but he doesn't fit which is why big how and little Joe were played over him

[Honey Honey]

Don't think that is necessarily true. It is the easy assumption but Almiron couldn't get back in the team after injury and he scored 11 league goals. No one says he doesn't fit.

ASM proved a few times throughout the season he can be part of it. A few results are down to him or the strength of our attack that game is. But fitness is the problem, you can't get momentum when you're constantly injured. It is a big problem for form and in a team like ours where many came into form you can't get your place back, as Almiron found.

[OrangeKhrush]

22 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

Don't think that is necessarily true. It is the easy assumption but Almiron couldn't get back in the team after injury and he scored 11 league goals. No one says he doesn't fit.

ASM proved a few times throughout the season he can be part of it. A few results are down to him or the strength of our attack that game is. But fitness is the problem, you can't get momentum when you're constantly injured. It is a big problem for form and in a team like ours where many came into form you can't get your place back, as Almiron found.

Almiron lost his place due to loss of form included and Jacob Murphy was brilliant which is not the same.   Maxi was out the team even when fit with Joelinton and Willock being harder workers and having better output.   

St Maximin had a good start to the season against Forest, was AWOL at Brighton then played a blinder against City before an okay game against wolves which he scored his only goal in.   He then got injured and wasn't seen until January.

St Maximin is hopeless at press and huddle and when his game is off which is the other 2/3 of games he is a weak link in the chain.

St Maximin is the only player that regressed under Howe, it is down to incompatibility.   if Howe really wanted him to stay we would not be signing Harvey Barnes.  He is a tradeable piece.   on his day he was a world beater, that was about two days a season.  He was a star in a poor team that was not good enough and even then he failed to get a big move because of his inconsistency.

[Rick]

If Almiron can play as many games as he did, so can ASM. I’m not convinced that Barnes is any improvement, and that little muppet from Everton isn’t either. 

[Lucas]

Firstly, I do like Barnes, decent player. He's comfortable in the Premier League and he will always chip in with goals.

I could be wrong, the move might well be the making of him to go up a level, but I still think it's a lot of money for an inconsistant player. He's a bit too up and down for me to be at a high level club and I always think that's hindered his International aspirations.

I've always seen him as an upgrade on what we have with Jack Harrison, similar players but Barnes is a far superior finisher. Can really shine when they want to, but they seem to have a run of games with little impact then a hot streak for three or four and so on. Frustrating because you know what these players can do but you don't see it enough.

I feel like Newcastle's ambition and aims as a club now are to consistantly try for Champions League Football each year, so Top 4 finish, for the next couple years with the aim to building a side that could eventually challenge for the league.

In that respect, I'm a bit surprised Newcastle haven't looked to sign someone with a bit more pedigree now they are in the position to. You'd think having got Tonali which was considered a coup, they could have got a lot more bang for their buck spending nigh on £40m on a wide player. Is Barnes going to produce those moments against top opposition in the Champions League/PL or will he always just be one for the middling games?

Granted, maybe I'm being over critical. Maybe you need guys like these in a squad whilst your trying to get to that next level. Chelsea and Man City did it that way initially after all. I guess proof will be in the pudding if it's worth £40m but my instinct feels its over the odds.

Bonus for Leicester though getting that cash for a relegated player, could do some serious damage with those funds. Newcastle obviously wanted him enough to justify paying it.

P.S I love ASM. I know his injury record is horrendous and over a season, you'd probably get more out of Barnes than you would him. But when the games are tied in the 60th/70th min, he's such a great impact player to bring on because the whole stadium just lifts and atmosphere changes.

And for me, if he's fully fit, he'd always start for what he can do. Really scares defenders and there's veey few of those maverick players about that have that effect.

Should definitely keep.

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Almiron lost his place due to loss of form included and Jacob Murphy was brilliant which is not the same.   Maxi was out the team even when fit with Joelinton and Willock being harder workers and having better output.   

St Maximin had a good start to the season against Forest, was AWOL at Brighton then played a blinder against City before an okay game against wolves which he scored his only goal in.   He then got injured and wasn't seen until January.

St Maximin is hopeless at press and huddle and when his game is off which is the other 2/3 of games he is a weak link in the chain.

St Maximin is the only player that regressed under Howe, it is down to incompatibility.   if Howe really wanted him to stay we would not be signing Harvey Barnes.  He is a tradeable piece.   on his day he was a world beater, that was about two days a season.  He was a star in a poor team that was not good enough and even then he failed to get a big move because of his inconsistency.

Don't agree with a single word, from start to finish.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Honey Honey said:

Don't agree with a single word, from start to finish.

 

We are free to have our opinions

 

2 hours ago, Lucas said:

Firstly, I do like Barnes, decent player. He's comfortable in the Premier League and he will always chip in with goals.

I could be wrong, the move might well be the making of him to go up a level, but I still think it's a lot of money for an inconsistant player. He's a bit too up and down for me to be at a high level club and I always think that's hindered his International aspirations.

I've always seen him as an upgrade on what we have with Jack Harrison, similar players but Barnes is a far superior finisher. Can really shine when they want to, but they seem to have a run of games with little impact then a hot streak for three or four and so on. Frustrating because you know what these players can do but you don't see it enough.

I feel like Newcastle's ambition and aims as a club now are to consistantly try for Champions League Football each year, so Top 4 finish, for the next couple years with the aim to building a side that could eventually challenge for the league.

In that respect, I'm a bit surprised Newcastle haven't looked to sign someone with a bit more pedigree now they are in the position to. You'd think having got Tonali which was considered a coup, they could have got a lot more bang for their buck spending nigh on £40m on a wide player. Is Barnes going to produce those moments against top opposition in the Champions League/PL or will he always just be one for the middling games?

Granted, maybe I'm being over critical. Maybe you need guys like these in a squad whilst your trying to get to that next level. Chelsea and Man City did it that way initially after all. I guess proof will be in the pudding if it's worth £40m but my instinct feels its over the odds.

Bonus for Leicester though getting that cash for a relegated player, could do some serious damage with those funds. Newcastle obviously wanted him enough to justify paying it.

P.S I love ASM. I know his injury record is horrendous and over a season, you'd probably get more out of Barnes than you would him. But when the games are tied in the 60th/70th min, he's such a great impact player to bring on because the whole stadium just lifts and atmosphere changes.

And for me, if he's fully fit, he'd always start for what he can do. Really scares defenders and there's veey few of those maverick players about that have that effect.

Should definitely keep.

To be fair ASM is not a player to come into games cold,  he is better from the start

 

This is why Barnes is better,  he gets into positions where he can impact a game,  the goal maps indicate a player that gets into the right positions to score and when compared to Maxi there is a reason why one player has scored 4x more goals.    On skills and entertainment Maxi is better but then we can say that Isak is better than Maxi across the board as he can beat players regularly and has an end product.

I would prefer to say keep Maxi over a Murphy but Maxi is not likely to be prepared to play off the bench for long and for all his limitations Murphy is the ultimate team player. 

[Dan+]

You've got to remember as well, that above is in a bad side. Now then the debate becomes how much of that was due to allowances made for him and Maddison - hard to really say. I think there was a good case that despite it being his highest scoring season it was his worst for us.

You can't really argue with 13 goals though. His expected goals were 10 goals and he hit 13.