Liverpool Discussion

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Lol, trying to apply this logic to the heat of the moment on a football pitch (especially a Merseyside derby for the Holgate incident) is mad.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a Merseyside Derby or Worksop v’s The Horse & Hounds. You can’t just go around throwing accusations like that around unless you absolutely know for sure it was said. 

 

[Burning Gold]

5 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Fucking dead right he should!

If anybody makes an allegation like that then they have to be 100% sure, absolutely 100% sure. 

If they aren’t absolutely 100% sure yet still go ahead with the allegation and they are proven wrong then yes, they should be punished, otherwise we will have false allegations flying around all over the place. 

I know you were referring to the Holgate incident so I’ll bite and respond in kind....

He made an allegation that wasn’t heard by anybody, anybody that was closer to Firmino than he was, even his own teammates. 

He couldn’t possibly be 100% sure that a racist comment was aimed at him and therefore, having it been found a false allegation, he should be punished accordingly and so should Brewster if the circumstances are the same  

 

This sets a very dangerous precedent. Obviously you should be sure if you're going to make an allegation, but what if you're 100% sure in your mind but misheard or misunderstood? What if you're sure but there's insufficient evidence to prove it?

We don't want false allegations going around and ruining careers, but what we definitely want is people not reporting things because they're scared of being punished themselves because of a technicality or an honest mistake they made.

If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that an individual has deliberately made a false allegation, they should be punished, but the cases in which that's possible are vanishingly rare.

[RandoEFC+]

14 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

It doesn’t matter if it’s a Merseyside Derby or Worksop v’s The Horse & Hounds. You can’t just go around throwing accusations like that around unless you absolutely know for sure it was said. 

 

What if you're 80% sure that you've heard something racist directed at you or another person but you can't prove It?

Should you just let it go when there's an 80% chance someone has been racially abused because of the 20% chance that you're making a false allegation? Or should you raise it for investigation?

I know you don't want to backtrack on what you said at the time, but your argument back then was that Firmino will get dogs abuse across the country as a result of Holgates accusation and that for having this impact on Firmino, Holgate should face some punishment. Fair enough i guess, but nobody has mentioned Firmino getting any further abuse from fans so I don't see it as an issue.

The FA have been very careful in their wording in both of these cases with the important caveat about Holgate and Brewster being judged to have made their complaints in good faith. The implication here is that the FA have investigated whether it was a deliberate false accusation and have concluded that it wasn't, but that they've looked down that route because there would have been a sanction if that's what it was.

You can't set the precedent you're suggesting.

[LFCMadLad]

14 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

This sets a very dangerous precedent. Obviously you should be sure if you're going to make an allegation, but what if you're 100% sure in your mind but misheard or misunderstood? What if you're sure but there's insufficient evidence to prove it?

We don't want false allegations going around and ruining careers, but what we definitely want is people not reporting things because they're scared of being punished themselves because of a technicality or an honest mistake they made.

If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that an individual has deliberately made a false allegation, they should be punished, but the cases in which that's possible are vanishingly rare.

I know, it’s a hard one I agree. I just feel strongly about things such as this, whether it’s a legitimate claim or a false one, I just think a person needs to be 100% sure of abuse before taking action. I honestly don’t think Holgate could have possibly been 100% of what he was claiming and for me, officially reporting it was wrong. 

 

[LFCMadLad]

7 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

What if you're 80% sure that you've heard something racist directed at you or another person but you can't prove It?

Should you just let it go when there's an 80% chance someone has been racially abused because of the 20% chance that you're making a false allegation? Or should you raise it for investigation?

I know you don't want to backtrack on what you said at the time, but your argument back then was that Firmino will get dogs abuse across the country as a result of Holgates accusation and that for having this impact on Firmino, Holgate should face some punishment. Fair enough i guess, but nobody has mentioned Firmino getting any further abuse from fans so I don't see it as an issue.

The FA have been very careful in their wording in both of these cases with the important caveat about Holgate and Brewster being judged to have made their complaints in good faith. The implication here is that the FA have investigated whether it was a deliberate false accusation and have concluded that it wasn't, but that they've looked down that route because there would have been a sanction if that's what it was.

You can't set the precedent you're suggesting.

You also can’t set a precedent of reporting racial abuse when you ‘think’ they said it! 

I understand it’s a very sketchy subject but that’s just how I feel. 

[The Artful Dodger]

He's not been proven wrong. 

[Burning Gold]

Just now, LFCMadLad said:

I know, it’s a hard one I agree. I just feel strongly about things such as this, whether it’s a legitimate claim or a false one, I just think a person needs to be 100% sure of abuse before taking action. I honestly don’t think Holgate could have possibly been 100% of what he was claiming and for me, officially reporting it was wrong. 

Fair enough mate, I disagree. I think some good would be done by punishing false accusers, but I think more harm would be done by setting the precedent that you will be punished if your allegation isn't proven. Even for Holgate, who I think it's blindingly obvious made it up, there isn't concrete evidence that he did, so he should go unpunished, as unjust as it seems.

What definitely needs to happen is people waiting for the investigation to conclude instead of treating allegations as convictions. We're too willing to condemn the accused (I'm not just talking about racist abuse in football here) and it can ruin lives. That hasn't happened to Firmino because everyone could see how ludicrous the accusation was from day one and because we tend to forgive footballers their indiscretions, but it could've done if circumstances were different. If we did that, there would be no power in the false allegation and there'd be no need to punish the accuser as you've suggested.

[RandoEFC+]

 as if we're still on this about Holgate when even other Liverpool fans have branded it "embarrassing" that there's shouts for Holgate to get banned for false accusations.

[LFCMadLad]

7 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 as if we're still on this about Holgate when even other Liverpool fans have branded it "embarrassing" that there's shouts for Holgate to get banned for false accusations.

It’s just a discussion mate. Nobody is shouting for anyone to be banned. It’s just a topic that splits opinion and it’s being talked about, simple as that. 

[Burning Gold]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 as if we're still on this about Holgate when even other Liverpool fans have branded it "embarrassing" that there's shouts for Holgate to get banned for false accusations.

 as if we're still discussing a topic when someone else has given an opinion I agree with

[RandoEFC+]

11 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

 as if we're still discussing a topic when someone else has given an opinion I agree with

I just find it utterly absurd that anyone even looking at it through tinted specs can be so certain that somebody of Holgates age and state of mind in that moment (losing his head with that push and shouting at his team mates that he was called a fucking nigger) would somehow concoct this plan to fabricate an accusation of racism against an opponent in the space of the few seconds he had to think about it.

Why some people still can't accept that in a stadium where literally thousands of people are yelling dogs abuse at each other, adrenaline going at 100mph for both guys that Firmino probably yelled a generic insult at Holgate in Portuguese that he misheard and reacted to what he thought was said?

Seriously there are absolute spackermongs who support Everton and Liverpool who have a seriously unhealthy obsession with each other's clubs, if there was anything in this they'd still be going at it hammer and tongs.

Basically I think you're being biased but I don't want to make a false accusation and risk a ban .

[Burning Gold]

35 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I just find it utterly absurd that anyone even looking at it through tinted specs can be so certain that somebody of Holgates age and state of mind in that moment (losing his head with that push and shouting at his team mates that he was called a fucking nigger) would somehow concoct this plan to fabricate an accusation of racism against an opponent in the space of the few seconds he had to think about it.

Why some people still can't accept that in a stadium where literally thousands of people are yelling dogs abuse at each other, adrenaline going at 100mph for both guys that Firmino probably yelled a generic insult at Holgate in Portuguese that he misheard and reacted to what he thought was said?

Seriously there are absolute spackermongs who support Everton and Liverpool who have a seriously unhealthy obsession with each other's clubs, if there was anything in this they'd still be going at it hammer and tongs.

Basically I think you're being biased but I don't want to make a false accusation and risk a ban .

You say this as if there aren't people for whom playing the race card is instinctive. I'm not saying Holgate is that type of person, but the fact that those people exist means it's not as much of a leap as you think it is to think he made it up. The clip's all over the internet and at no point does Firmino say anything that could possibly be misinterpreted as the n word, which Holgate very clearly said Firmino used. For that reason, and the fact that no one else around him reacted, I do think he made it up, but there's no conclusive evidence for that because ultimately only he knows what he heard or thought he heard, so I don't think he should be punished. I like to think I'm pretty objective when it comes to football and I'm literally just going off the visual evidence, so I don't see how I could be being biased here. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Burning Gold

[RandoEFC+]

40 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

You say this as if there aren't people for whom playing the race card is instinctive. I'm not saying Holgate is that type of person, but the fact that those people exist means it's not as much of a leap as you think it is to think he made it up. The clip's all over the internet and at no point does Firmino say anything that could possibly be misinterpreted as the n word, which Holgate very clearly said Firmino used. For that reason, and the fact that no one else around him reacted, I do think he made it up, but there's no conclusive evidence for that because ultimately only he knows what he heard or thought he heard, so I don't think he should be punished. I like to think I'm pretty objective when it comes to football and I'm literally just going off the visual evidence, so I don't see how I could be being biased here. 

I see where you're coming from to an extent but you're both being hypocritical. Maybe I am too. But between you, you can't say that you're almost or entirely sure Holgate made it up or shouldn't have made an accusation unless he was sure, then in the next breath be accusing Holgate of playing the race card when you yourself are basing that on pure speculation. 

You're saying that there are people out there who play the race card making it more likely or less of a leap that Holgate did the same thing is dangerous as well. Where do you draw the line with that line of thinking?

"Other footballers have said racist things on the pitch before so it's not that much of a leap to think Firmino said the same thing".

"Other coaches have been done for molesting young boys at football clubs before so it's not that much of a leap to think that Klopp/Mourinho/Allardyce did the same thing".

See where I'm going with this?

The FA did their investigation and put it down to a misunderstanding basically, found no fault on either side. No evidence of racism from Firmino, no evidence of false accusation with dishonest intent from Holgate. Time to move on.

[LFCMadLad]

13 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I see where you're coming from to an extent but you're both being hypocritical. Maybe I am too. But between you, you can't say that you're almost or entirely sure Holgate made it up or shouldn't have made an accusation unless he was sure, then in the next breath be accusing Holgate of playing the race card when you yourself are basing that on pure speculation. 

You're saying that there are people out there who play the race card making it more likely or less of a leap that Holgate did the same thing is dangerous as well. Where do you draw the line with that line of thinking?

"Other footballers have said racist things on the pitch before so it's not that much of a leap to think Firmino said the same thing".

"Other coaches have been done for molesting young boys at football clubs before so it's not that much of a leap to think that Klopp/Mourinho/Allardyce did the same thing".

See where I'm going with this?

The FA did their investigation and put it down to a misunderstanding basically, found no fault on either side. No evidence of racism from Firmino, no evidence of false accusation with dishonest intent from Holgate. Time to move on.

You say he wouldn’t have had time to think about calling the racist card but he certainly had time to think about launching Firmino into the crowd!?

I honestly believe that he thought he was getting sent off, panicked, heard Firmino shout something, and played the race card. He probably regretted it immediately but once it was said it was said.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong. He could have said it in all honesty even though nobody else in the vicinity heard it and lip reading experts have confirmed nothing even similar came out of Firmino’s mouth. 

Anyway, let’s move on.   

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

You say he wouldn’t have had time to think about calling the racist card but he certainly had time to think about launching Firmino into the crowd!?

I honestly believe that he thought he was getting sent off, panicked, heard Firmino shout something, and played the race card. He probably regretted it immediately but once it was said it was said.

Just my opinion and I could be totally wrong. He could have said it in all honesty even though nobody else in the vicinity heard it and lip reading experts have confirmed nothing even similar came out of Firmino’s mouth. 

Anyway, let’s move on.   

Shoving someone into the crowd because you've just given away a penalty and you're pissed off because the other guy went down easy and you were a bit naive putting your hands anywhere near him in the box is perfectly understandable and commonplace when you're a thick footballer.

Suddenly calming down again and coming up with a master plan to turn things around and get your opponent in trouble with chaos going on around you seems less likely when it's a thick footballer, but it's not impossible I'll give you that much. 

On both sides, it's all speculation (though I will still maintain that my speculation is in line with the result of the investigation as opposed to people who call themselves lip reading experts on Twitter - granted the FA don't tend to be much more reliable than those people) and I think we'll both admit we're biased towards our own players and we'd likely (almost certainly) be having the same argument on opposite sides had things happened in reverse.

So yes, let's move on.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think you both make good points.

[Burning Gold]

Absolutely top class from Andy Robertson

@Inverted's about to jizz his pants

[RandoEFC+]

Hope he writes back asking for Robertson's shirt instead of one signed by a racist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Top class in all seriousness by Robertson. It's huge for kids when stuff like this happens and footballers should do it more. It's one thing that makes me proud about Everton that quite a few of ours (especially Coleman, Baines, in the past Naismith, Osman) do this sort of thing often.

[Inverted]

3 hours ago, Burning Gold said:

Absolutely top class from Andy Robertson

@Inverted's about to jizz his pants

A beautiful soul and a beautiful player. 

[HK85]

17 minutes ago, Inverted said:

A beautiful soul and a beautiful player. 

Good PR after the homophobic tweets. 

[Danny]

Some absolute whoppers in here, just because an accusation hasn't been proven doesn't mean they were lying. Have some common sense and take your rose tinted glasses off.

[LFCMadLad]

37 minutes ago, Danny said:

Some absolute whoppers in here, just because an accusation hasn't been proven doesn't mean they were lying. Have some common sense and take your rose tinted glasses off.

Doesn’t mean they weren’t lying either. It’s a discussion, chill out. 

[Danny]

1 hour ago, LFCMadLad said:

Doesn’t mean they weren’t lying either. It’s a discussion, chill out. 

I am chilled mate, but your discussion is idiotic. You can't create an environment of trust and openness if people who are abused are at risk of being reprimanded and demonised because they're not sure it will be proven at trial.

[LFCMadLad]

3 hours ago, Danny said:

I am chilled mate, but your discussion is idiotic. You can't create an environment of trust and openness if people who are abused are at risk of being reprimanded and demonised because they're not sure it will be proven at trial.

Oh that’s it then, done and dusted. Let’s just let players throw casual racist abuse accusations all over the place. 

“He just called me a nigger!”

”No he didn’t”

”Mehhh”

[Danny]

18 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Oh that’s it then, done and dusted. Let’s just let players throw casual racist abuse accusations all over the place. 

“He just called me a nigger!”

”No he didn’t”

”Mehhh”

Yeah, that's literally it. He was accused, wasn't found guilty and everyone moves on.