Unpopular Football Opinions

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Blue said:

Maybe because football was different 7-10 years ago. Not a whole lot but you don't have to play for a great club to be a great player.

If you're a Peruvian and a CB playing in Europe, that's a great feat already.

Again, this is just a case if you guessing. You've never seen him in your life. He's not world class, he's not better than the top defenders in the PL but he's easily better than Stones and Otamendi. I can tell you via comparisons and that I've seen all 3.

you've only seen Otamendi in qualifiers. How many times have you seen him (or Stones) for Man City?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Stan said:

you've only seen Otamendi in qualifiers. How many times have you seen him (or Stones) for Man City?

I've seen them in the UCL and sometimes in the prem.

I don't watch the PL very much. I watch a few games here and there though, so no I'm not guessing. Even more now that Carrillo is at Watford.

I obviously haven't seen every team so I just gave a percentage based on what I have seen. The 2 Spurs defenders, David Luiz are certainties and I'm sure there are a few more that are better if I'm doing my math correctly. For example I've heard good things about Bailly but I haven't seen him to make a comparison. In a way the "80%" can be seen as a guess but based on a lot of what I've seen as well as what's deemed good. It's not a "complete guess" like some of the others here, if I have never seen a league or player I don't completely guess and don't even use stats for it.

EDIT: Perhaps the word estimate would be better.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Guest

[Burning Gold]

30 minutes ago, Blue said:

Maybe because football was different 7-10 years ago. Not a whole lot but you don't have to play for a great club to be a great player.

If you're a Peruvian and a CB playing in Europe, that's a great feat already.

Again, this is just a case if you guessing. You've never seen him in your life. He's not world class, he's not better than the top defenders in the PL but he's easily better than Stones and Otamendi. I can tell you via comparisons and that I've seen all 3.

Actually, I have seen him play, but it doesn't matter. I don't need to be familiar with him to poke holes in your arguments, which so far have been:

"He didn't hit the heights he could have in club football because it's very hard for players to get scouted in Peru" (the guy played in Portugal)

"Sporting are a good team to have played for because their good players are often poached by bigger and better teams" (he remains unpoached)

and lastly

"He could be one of the best defenders in the PL, but just playing in Europe at all is a great achievement for him"

Edited September 19, 2017 by Burning Gold

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Actually, I have seen him play, but it doesn't matter. I don't need to be familiar with him to poke holes in your arguments, which so far have been:

"He didn't hit the heights he could have in club football because it's very hard for players to get scouted in Peru" (the guy played in Portugal)

"Sporting are a good team to have played for because their good players are often poached by bigger and better teams" (he remains unpoached)

and lastly

"He could be one of the best defenders in the PL, but just playing in Europe at all is a great achievement for him"

1. He played in Portugal, ok. There's a big sense in truth in that. Unfortunately the discrimination still exists. It's true that he could have gotten to a bigger club, but Peruvians still get ignored to a degree. However, were talking about now, not before. Back then the standard was better, and he's peaking now. Perhaps he didn't fit the bill? im sure Portuguese sides don't get scouted either unless it's the big 3, which brings me to my next point...

2. Well yeah, you will probably get poached if you are a good player at Sporting. That is if you even get a chance to impress, which Rodriguez didn't. He didn't even play 10 games!!! You shouldn't expect him to get poached if you don't even play. Sure, he reached a Europa league final, and started but if you're raiding players from a successful feeder league side, unless it's really needed you're not going to go straight for the center back you're gonna go for their best. Again I'm not saying he's world class or even close to it, I'm saying he's better than a lot of defenders in the PL.

3. Well yeah, it is. Sometimes football has no logic though. Rodriguez is better than Carlos Zambrano and he got a chance to play in the Bundesliga right away.

EDIT: when have you seen him play out of curiousity? 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Also - it's quite cute that you want to "poke holes" in my arguments given the only thing you can say is "he's never played for a top club" bla bla bla. I'm sure there's a Bulgarian bloke playing in his domestic league that we've never heard of that can do a job in the PL. Some low standard leagues may have that. In our case, our league has only 2 players over 23 that can do a job in the PL. he's one, Leao Butron is the other while the rest could reach a level to do that. This being under 23 players of course.

[Burning Gold]

8 minutes ago, Blue said:

1. He played in Portugal, ok. There's a big sense in truth in that. Unfortunately the discrimination still exists. It's true that he could have gotten to a bigger club, but Peruvians still get ignored to a degree. However, were talking about now, not before. Back then the standard was better, and he's peaking now. Perhaps he didn't fit the bill? im sure Portuguese sides don't get scouted either unless it's the big 3, which brings me to my next point...

2. Well yeah, you will probably get poached if you are a good player at Sporting. That is if you even get a chance to impress, which Rodriguez didn't. He didn't even play 10 games!!! You shouldn't expect him to get poached if you don't even play. Sure, he reached a Europa league final, and started but if you're raiding players from a successful feeder league side, unless it's really needed you're not going to go straight for the center back you're gonna go for their best. Again I'm not saying he's world class or even close to it, I'm saying he's better than a lot of defenders in the PL.

3. Well yeah, it is. Sometimes football has no logic though. Rodriguez is better than Carlos Zambrano and he got a chance to play in the Bundesliga right away.

1. Bullshit and bullshit. Football clubs don't care what country you're from, they care if you're good at football. Show me the evidence that Peruvians are ignored, and it better not just be that there aren't many Peruvian footballers in the top leagues.

Portuguese sides outside the top 3 don't get scouted? First of all, PL clubs send their scouts everywhere, and the smaller ones often, another Portuguese team!

2. Why didn't he play  10 games mate? Okay, he struggled with injuries, but Sporting clearly didn't see enough in him to keep him around in the hope he could play more games for them after he recovered.

"If you're raiding players from a successful feeder league side... you're going to go for their best". Well if you're a 12 year old playing Football Manager, I suppose you might, but if you're in charge of a successful football club, you'd be interested in any player that would improve your team. The Premier League is, as you say, poor defensively (moreso now than then, admittedly, but it was still true back then) so I'm sure there are a whole host of clubs that would be interested in a defender that would be one of the best in the league. And yet...

3. Yeah, I'm not sure it's football that lacks logic mate.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Burning Gold said:

1. Bullshit and bullshit. Football clubs don't care what country you're from, they care if you're good at football. Show me the evidence that Peruvians are ignored, and it better not just be that there aren't many Peruvian footballers in the top leagues.

Portuguese sides outside the top 3 don't get scouted? First of all, PL clubs send their scouts everywhere, and the smaller ones often, another Portuguese team!

2. Why didn't he play  10 games mate? Okay, he struggled with injuries, but Sporting clearly didn't see enough in him to keep him around in the hope he could play more games for them after he recovered.

"If you're raiding players from a successful feeder league side... you're going to go for their best". Well if you're a 12 year old playing Football Manager, I suppose you might, but if you're in charge of a successful football club, you'd be interested in any player that would improve your team. The Premier League is, as you say, poor defensively (moreso now than then, admittedly, but it was still true back then) so I'm sure there are a whole host of clubs that would be interested in a defender that would be one of the best in the league. And yet...

3. Yeah, I'm not sure it's football that lacks logic mate.

1. It does actually. Paolo Guerrero should have gone back to Europe long ago (after the win vs Chelsea) he didn't. It took Jefferson Farfán and Juan Manuel Vargas huge efforts to get to big clubs. Most people here in South America say the same thing actually. 

2. Clubs can make mistakes. I'm not saying Sporting were wrong perhaps he didn't fit the bill at the time but again we're talking about now not before, he's peaking now and no striker in South America has had an easy time. Mostly a hard time given we've gotten points out of most teams in South America by now. A defender that shuts down these players on a consistent basis isn't one that should be taken lightly because of the club he plays for.

 

3. Football lacks logic and there's no patterns. If it had patterns, George Weah would have never been successful. For Liberia he was 1 in 100.

 

were having a football debate not a "I disagree you know nothing your arguments are shit" that you are doing. I can do it just as easily. Like you claiming that he didn't play in a top league or a top club so he's crap.

Landon Donovan must have also been shit then. Same with Cavenaghi and Rogerio Ceni.

[Cicero]

Lugano and Amorebieta both moved to the Premier League at around the age Rodriguez is now, and both failed immensely. 

[Stan]

51 minutes ago, Blue said:

1. He played in Portugal, ok. There's a big sense in truth in that. Unfortunately the discrimination still exists. It's true that he could have gotten to a bigger club, but Peruvians still get ignored to a degree. However, were talking about now, not before. Back then the standard was better, and he's peaking now. Perhaps he didn't fit the bill? im sure Portuguese sides don't get scouted either unless it's the big 3, which brings me to my next point...

 

which brings us nicely to what you were saying earlier.

First you said he's only in Peru because of age. Then you went on to say he chose to go back but then he was also injury prone.

Just because you're too good for the Peruvian league doesn't automatically mean you're better than 80% of the defenders in one of the best leagues in the world . Such a random stat/number plucked out of the air to seemingly add strength to an enormously weak argument.

Like @Danny said, he can't be that good when you type his name in to Google and a film actor comes up before him  

[Guest]

Just now, Cicero said:

Lugano and Amorebieta both moved to the Premier League at around the age Rodriguez is now, and both failed immensely. 

Amorebieta has always been shite though.

The way I see it, there are 2 reasons Rodriguez isn't in a better league.

1. He doesn't want to leave - sure we've had rumours that he'd go to Peñarol or America de Cali but its clear they weren't serious. He's still here.

2. His injury proneness. Defensively and mentally he can easily do a job for a lot of teams in the PL. He may struggle physically though in the course of 38 games as opposed to the fewer (and in a spread amount of time) games in the qualifiers. That is the let down for me, but if we're just talking about his abilities overall he's a superb central defender.

Lugano was finished for me a bit earlier. After the 2011 Copa America that was it for him. I remember seeing him at WBA and Cerro Porteño. Complete open door. I think that's a different situation.

@Burning Gold you can have your opinion, but its clearly a blantantly guess one (until you tell me when you've seen him). You can't just judge a player based on the clubs he's played for. Again, Donovan, Cavenaghi, Rogerio Ceni, I'll even throw Riquelme in there who had a short (but successful) stint in Europe and went back to Boca after the world class Argentinian league era was done and everyone was going to Europe. 

1 minute ago, Stan said:

which brings us nicely to what you were saying earlier.

First you said he's only in Peru because of age. Then you went on to say he chose to go back but then he was also injury prone.

Just because you're too good for the Peruvian league doesn't automatically mean you're better than 80% of the defenders in one of the best leagues in the world . Such a random stat/number plucked out of the air to seemingly add strength to an enormously weak argument.

Like @Danny said, he can't be that good when you type his name in to Google and a film actor comes up before him  

I know that last line is a pop, but he's a great defender believe me. The number 80% as stated earlier, was an estimate. I don't rate most of the CB's I have seen. Again, I've heard good things about Bailly, there may be a few others I haven't heard of that could be performing well, but from most of what I've seen its not a great league for CB's. 

The "too good for the Peruvian League" wasn't the example. That was to prove the point that his performances for Peru haven't been only down to Ricardo Gareca. He's done excellently on both accounts while Aldo Corzo, who also plays for La U has only done well for the NT while struggling in the league. Football has no logic but he's peaking now just like Paolo Guerrero who mind is considered by most South Americans as one of the best 9's in the continent.

I don't remember if I said "was" injury prone but as I answered above, he is now and while he may struggle to stay fit I'm sure defensively he can do a job for most teams in the PL.

[Stan]

Just now, Blue said:

 

I know that last line is a pop, but he's a great defender believe me. The number 80% as stated earlier, was an estimate. I don't rate most of the CB's I have seen. Again, I've heard good things about Bailly, there may be a few others I haven't heard of that could be performing well, but from most of what I've seen its not a great league for CB's. 

The "too good for the Peruvian League" wasn't the example. That was to prove the point that his performances for Peru haven't been only down to Ricardo Gareca. He's done excellently on both accounts while Aldo Corzo, who also plays for La U has only done well for the NT while struggling in the league. Football has no logic but he's peaking now just like Paolo Guerrero who mind is considered by most South Americans as one of the best 9's in the continent.

I don't remember if I said "was" injury prone but as I answered above, he is now and while he may struggle to stay fit I'm sure defensively he can do a job for most teams in the PL.

or..........

'a complete guess'

[Guest]

Just now, Stan said:

or..........

'a complete guess'

Estimate  

Already explained it. There may be a few that I haven't seen (like Bailly) who I can't make a judgement upon. 

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

Amorebieta has always been shite though.

The way I see it, there are 2 reasons Rodriguez isn't in a better league.

1. He doesn't want to leave - sure we've had rumours that he'd go to Peñarol or America de Cali but its clear they weren't serious. He's still here.

2. His injury proneness. Defensively and mentally he can easily do a job for a lot of teams in the PL. He may struggle physically though in the course of 38 games as opposed to the fewer (and in a spread amount of time) games in the qualifiers. That is the let down for me, but if we're just talking about his abilities overall he's a superb central defender.

Lugano was finished for me a bit earlier. After the 2011 Copa America that was it for him. I remember seeing him at WBA and Cerro Porteño. Complete open door. I think that's a different situation.

@Burning Gold you can have your opinion, but its clearly a blantantly guess one (until you tell me when you've seen him). You can't just judge a player based on the clubs he's played for. Again, Donovan, Cavenaghi, Rogerio Ceni, I'll even throw Riquelme in there who had a short (but successful) stint in Europe and went back to Boca after the world class Argentinian league era was done and everyone was going to Europe. 

I know that last line is a pop, but he's a great defender believe me. The number 80% as stated earlier, was an estimate. I don't rate most of the CB's I have seen. Again, I've heard good things about Bailly, there may be a few others I haven't heard of that could be performing well, but from most of what I've seen its not a great league for CB's. 

The "too good for the Peruvian League" wasn't the example. That was to prove the point that his performances for Peru haven't been only down to Ricardo Gareca. He's done excellently on both accounts while Aldo Corzo, who also plays for La U has only done well for the NT while struggling in the league. Football has no logic but he's peaking now just like Paolo Guerrero who mind is considered by most South Americans as one of the best 9's in the continent.

I don't remember if I said "was" injury prone but as I answered above, he is now and while he may struggle to stay fit I'm sure defensively he can do a job for most teams in the PL.

Amorebieta also made in to a Europa league final and Copa Del Rey finals? 

Lugano was one of the finest defenders South America produced in a long time. He was also injury prone yet completely failed in the premier league compared to Rodriguez who you think would flourish? It just sounds like nonsense mate. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Cicero

[Guest]

Just now, Cicero said:

Amorebieta also made in to a Europa league final? 

Lugano was one of the finest defenders South America produced in a long time. He was also injury prone yet completely failed in the premier league compared to Rodriguez who you think would flourish? It just sounds like nonsense mate. 

He was one of the finest.

Not in 2013-14 though. He was past his peak by then.

Rodriguez isn't as good as prime Lugano, and I wouldn't say he would "flourish". He can do a job is what I'm saying when he stays fit. Rodriguez is in his peak now. Lugano wasn't when he played in the PL.

Again, football has no logic. There have been a few brilliant players who also flopped in the PL and did brilliantly elsewhere. 

[Viva la FCB+]

[RandoEFC+]

2 more pages of "why am I reading this?"

[Burning Gold]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

2 more pages of "why am I reading this?"

Now imagine taking part in it

[RandoEFC+]

12 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Now imagine taking part in it

Been there enough times. I try to at least skim read all the threads on this site but it doesn't half test my resolve when half of the new posts are just "[random South American 19 year old nobody's heard of] is miles better than [random European 19 year old a few people have heard of] and it's outrageous if anyone disagrees" or memes and stats about how good Mourinho and Lukaku have done over the last 6 games...

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Now imagine taking part in it

So don't take part in it. That simple.

If you don't want to believe me that's up to you, but I would suggest not guessing and just not touching the matter.

[Burning Gold]

16 minutes ago, Blue said:

So don't take part in it. That simple.

If you don't want to believe me that's up to you, but I would suggest not guessing and just not touching the matter.

What do you think I guessed? Be specific

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Burning Gold said:

What do you think I guessed? Be specific

You've never seen Alberto Rodriguez in your life son.

If you have I'd bet its once or twice. I'm not having anything else, you're choosing not to believe me and making a big deal out of it, so should I believe you?

I genuinely want to know why you're so wound up - its my opinion and if you don't want to believe that I've seen these players then its up to you. I don't believe you've seen a second of him. It ends there because this isn't going to come to a friendly conclusion. Just relax and believe what you want to believe. 

No need to get so angry about it.

[Burning Gold]

Just now, Blue said:

You've never seen Alberto Rodriguez in your life son.

If you have I'd bet its once or twice. I'm not having anything else, you're choosing not to believe me and making a big deal out of it, so should I believe you?

I genuinely want to know why you're so wound up - its my opinion and if you don't want to believe that I've seen these players then its up to you. I don't believe you've seen a second of him. It ends there because this isn't going to come to a friendly conclusion. Just relax and believe what you want to believe. 

No need to get so angry about it.

That's not an answer. What that I said do you believe to be a guess?

I'm not angry at all mate. Where has that come from? 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

That's not an answer. What that I said do you believe to be a guess?

I'm not angry at all mate. Where has that come from? 

 

1 hour ago, Burning Gold said:

Now imagine taking part in it

It came from there.

I just can't stand guessers - if you've never seen the player then don't comment out on it.

If you don't want to believe me that's fine. Just don't get wound up on it. I'm very eager to talk about Peruvians and South Americans on here. While I totally get that saying something like I did may sound crazy, and its normal for you and most brits to not believe me. Hell, there may even be many Peruvians who will disagree with it, but I have my own basis and arguments for it in the way I view football. If you disagree with it, good for you.

[Viva la FCB+]

[Burning Gold]

10 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

It came from there.

I just can't stand guessers - if you've never seen the player then don't comment out on it.

If you don't want to believe me that's fine. Just don't get wound up on it. I'm very eager to talk about Peruvians and South Americans on here. While I totally get that saying something like I did may sound crazy, and its normal for you and most brits to not believe me. Hell, there may even be many Peruvians who will disagree with it, but I have my own basis and arguments for it in the way I view football. If you disagree with it, good for you.

I see. I'm a little annoyed with myself for getting dragged in and not getting done some of the things I wanted to yesterday, but I'm not angry, and certainly not with anyone else.

In the spirit of that, though, I'm done with this back and forth. If you look back at my posts on this subject, you won't find anything I've written that's based on a guess.