Dave Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted May 29 Administrator Share Posted May 29 Protecting the big clubs once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Why are they even doing this? It's not like big clubs don't regularly make the final for this cup (or any domestic cup final). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted May 29 Subscriber Share Posted May 29 Can't be having clubs like Port Vale making the quarter finals again can we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 5 hours ago, Stan said: Protecting the big clubs once again. 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Why are they even doing this? It's not like big clubs don't regularly make the final for this cup (or any domestic cup final). Champions League and Europa League expansion taking up more midweeks, and aren't always in the same midweek. Champions League first league stage fixtures are the week of 17th September. Europa League doesn't start until the next week. Seeding is to keep the teams in different competitions apart. Otherwise there is no day available to play the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted May 29 Administrator Share Posted May 29 36 minutes ago, ScoRoss said: Champions League and Europa League expansion taking up more midweeks, and aren't always in the same midweek. Champions League first league stage fixtures are the week of 17th September. Europa League doesn't start until the next week. Seeding is to keep the teams in different competitions apart. Otherwise there is no day available to play the game. Funny how managers are quick to point the finger at domestic cups for 'fixture congestion' but not heard many, if any, managers shout out at the Champions League expansion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted May 29 Subscriber Share Posted May 29 18 minutes ago, Stan said: Funny how managers are quick to point the finger at domestic cups for 'fixture congestion' but not heard many, if any, managers shout out at the Champions League expansion... Been saying this for years. Never been any talk of reforming the Champions League to have a streamlined group stage or get rid of two-legged knockout rounds until the QFs, or have just the group winner go through into a last eight, etc. Instead they've added more and more European fixtures. Even in Europa, there was a time where the group stage was 5 teams and everyone would play once so four fixtures overall. Nowadays it's six games. Having 3rd placed teams drop from the Champions League group stage to the Europa League knockout is unnecessary and extra fixtures as well. I love European football. The Europa League is often more interesting than the Champions League in my opinion, just for the variety. I like the Conference League concept as well. The more fans that can see their club play across the continent, the better. Everyone knows though that expanding European football is the real cause of fixture congestion. It's about time the managers of top clubs and the other powers that be just admit they're prioritising the big franchise clubs and European competition because it makes them all more money and drop this pretend concern about fixture congestion. It's insulting. At least if they admit the truth we can just add it to the list of ways that the rampant capitalism that has been invited into the sport has changed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 37 minutes ago, Stan said: Funny how managers are quick to point the finger at domestic cups for 'fixture congestion' but not heard many, if any, managers shout out at the Champions League expansion... In Scotland, they've had to move all of the League Cup games to weekends and have scraped the winter break to be able to fit in all the domestic fixtures amongst the expanded European competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ Posted May 29 Subscriber Share Posted May 29 Funny how many people fell for the brinkmanship. All the fixture congestion complaints have ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 I don't mind it to be honest. One of the biggest criticisms towards the scrap of FA Cup replays was the occasional team would miss out on revenue generated from a replay. This ensures multiple teams get the opportunity for a bumper pay day every season. With the way football is heading as well, season tickets are going to be a thing of the past. Premier League clubs know they can make a lot more money per head on tourists than a local diehard fan. So early cup ties may be your best chance to see a big club (or watch your big club) if you have a young family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 I dont like it, that said chelsea and ourselves can draw on of the 6 in the 3rd round but I still think when big sides draw early it can create a path for smaller teams to make their way through Most will play weak squad until the later rounds anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 28 Subscriber Share Posted August 28 On 29/05/2024 at 21:44, RandoEFC said: Been saying this for years. Never been any talk of reforming the Champions League to have a streamlined group stage or get rid of two-legged knockout rounds until the QFs, or have just the group winner go through into a last eight, etc. Instead they've added more and more European fixtures. Even in Europa, there was a time where the group stage was 5 teams and everyone would play once so four fixtures overall. Nowadays it's six games. Having 3rd placed teams drop from the Champions League group stage to the Europa League knockout is unnecessary and extra fixtures as well. I love European football. The Europa League is often more interesting than the Champions League in my opinion, just for the variety. I like the Conference League concept as well. The more fans that can see their club play across the continent, the better. Everyone knows though that expanding European football is the real cause of fixture congestion. It's about time the managers of top clubs and the other powers that be just admit they're prioritising the big franchise clubs and European competition because it makes them all more money and drop this pretend concern about fixture congestion. It's insulting. At least if they admit the truth we can just add it to the list of ways that the rampant capitalism that has been invited into the sport has changed it. Came here to basically say all the stuff above after tonight's draw but it turns out I already did and I've just forgotten about it. Another year, another concession to the "elite" clubs. It's asking far too much for them to play FA Cup replays or simply take part in the League Cup without them whinging about schedules and feigning concern about player safety. Not heard a peep about the extra two Champions League fixtures that have been added this year because . Load of shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Seeding is a good thing. It brings structure and logic to the draw rather than it being completely random and down to luck. I prefer that. Obviously some others don't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ Posted August 29 Subscriber Share Posted August 29 Should be less seeding in general. I can't help but think this is just further deliberate sabotage as an excuse to bin this off down the line. Make it so shit that nobody will miss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted August 29 Administrator Share Posted August 29 6 hours ago, 6666 said: Seeding is a good thing. It brings structure and logic to the draw rather than it being completely random and down to luck. I prefer that. Obviously some others don't... Surely you see it tailors the draw towards the big six? Pandering to them? They're literally rigging it to avoid playing each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 29 Subscriber Share Posted August 29 The last eleven League cups were won by Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City or Man Utd so they clearly don't need extra advantages. I suppose what Dave said months ago about it guaranteeing more clubs further down the pyramid will face a big opponent is true but that wasn't the reasoning they've given. The bottom line is it's becoming an annual thing now that something gets changed about our domestic cups to pander to 6-8 of the 100+ teams that are involved. It's very literally the opposite of fair competition. The biggest farce of all was the scrapping of FA Cup replays because of fixture congestion and now they've added 2 more games to the European schedule and nobody's heard a peep about it from Pep etc. The rule should be that if you're playing in Europe, you can opt not to have replays before your FA Cup fixture but your opponent receives 100% of the matchday revenue and you also pay them a fine equivalent to an estimate of the matchday revenue that would be generated by a replay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMike Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 10 hours ago, RandoEFC said: Came here to basically say all the stuff above after tonight's draw but it turns out I already did and I've just forgotten about it. Another year, another concession to the "elite" clubs. It's asking far too much for them to play FA Cup replays or simply take part in the League Cup without them whinging about schedules and feigning concern about player safety. Not heard a peep about the extra two Champions League fixtures that have been added this year because . Load of shite. “Who read this concept properly and says ‘oh that’s perfect’ and who tells me now that’s not about money? It’s a joke! “I said before with the Nations League with more games, I said before when FIFA wanted to have a Club World Cup – they don’t ask, they just introduce it. “What’s the reason for that? Money.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 On 30/05/2024 at 00:59, Dave said: I don't mind it to be honest. One of the biggest criticisms towards the scrap of FA Cup replays was the occasional team would miss out on revenue generated from a replay. This ensures multiple teams get the opportunity for a bumper pay day every season. With the way football is heading as well, season tickets are going to be a thing of the past. Premier League clubs know they can make a lot more money per head on tourists than a local diehard fan. So early cup ties may be your best chance to see a big club (or watch your big club) if you have a young family. match day ticket sales may be a thing of the past for premier league teams but for lower league teams filling up what would be empty stadiums for a big game is a bit of a cash boom. If I am correct the smaller clubs prefer playing away to premier league teams as they get a revenue share that is far higher than their gate tickets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 5 hours ago, Stan said: Surely you see it tailors the draw towards the big six? Pandering to them? They're literally rigging it to avoid playing each other? Not really the "big six" though is it? It's the teams that finish highest in the league. That's how they earn being seeded. It's also better for the competition and it helps avoid imbalance in the draw where we'd get two big sides playing each other in one game and two smaller sides playing in another, etc. And don't lower league sides prefer playing Premier League sides in cup competitions anyway? If there was already a seeding system and they took it away, people would then complain about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted August 29 Administrator Share Posted August 29 8 minutes ago, 6666 said: It's also better for the competition and it helps avoid imbalance in the draw where we'd get two big sides playing each other in one game and two smaller sides playing in another, etc. What's wrong with 2 big sides playing each other and two smaller sides playing each other? The draw is tailored to then benefit the big teams - why 'rig' it so they avoid each other? Lower league sides prefer a balance - either to get through far into the competition as well as playing PL sides. But sadly the competition doesn't hold that balance any more. I don't think people would moan because there was nothing wrong with the current format until sides qualifying for Europe decided to a) treat it like a minor competition and b) require the change for the format... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 29 Author Share Posted August 29 I wouldnt be adverse to them doing this for the FA Cup now they've scrapped replays. Youd imagine the revenue a Cambridge would get for playing Manchester United on BBC would far supersede a replay against a Stoke. The chances of a famous upset like what Bradford did a decade ago now would be multiplied too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 18 minutes ago, Stan said: What's wrong with 2 big sides playing each other and two smaller sides playing each other? A lack of balance in the fixtures. Ideally you want the path to the final to be a similar level for both teams that get into the final. Also, how far you get in a competition should represent how well you did rather than your "luck in the draw". Seeding helps that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted August 29 Administrator Share Posted August 29 18 minutes ago, 6666 said: A lack of balance in the fixtures. Ideally you want the path to the final to be a similar level for both teams that get into the final. Also, how far you get in a competition should represent how well you did rather than your "luck in the draw". Seeding helps that. Liverpool vs West Ham Man City vs Watford Arsenal vs Bolton Manchester United vs Barnsley Wycombe vs Aston Villa Coventry vs Tottenham Walsall vs Leicester Brentford vs Leyton Orient Blackpool vs Sheffield Wednesday Preston vs Fulham Everton vs Southampton QPR vs Crystal Palace Stoke vs Fleetwood Brighton vs Wolves AFC Wimbledon vs Newcastle Chelsea vs Barrow 'lack of balance in the fixtures' Yet we have Liverpool playing West Ham and Arsenal playing Bolton as well as Man Utd at home to Barnsley. Tell me how has seeding improved the balance of fixtures, there. It's weighted towards favouring the bigger sides in Europe. Just because bigger sides don't want to play each other earlier, doesn't mean that should come at the unfairness for lower league sides, and pretty much deny them the opportunity to progress. And no, 'they always want to play the PL sides' is not a good enough excuse for the seeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 16 minutes ago, Stan said: Liverpool vs West Ham Man City vs Watford Arsenal vs Bolton Manchester United vs Barnsley Wycombe vs Aston Villa Coventry vs Tottenham Walsall vs Leicester Brentford vs Leyton Orient Blackpool vs Sheffield Wednesday Preston vs Fulham Everton vs Southampton QPR vs Crystal Palace Stoke vs Fleetwood Brighton vs Wolves AFC Wimbledon vs Newcastle Chelsea vs Barrow 'lack of balance in the fixtures' Yet we have Liverpool playing West Ham and Arsenal playing Bolton as well as Man Utd at home to Barnsley. Tell me how has seeding improved the balance of fixtures, there. It's weighted towards favouring the bigger sides in Europe. Just because bigger sides don't want to play each other earlier, doesn't mean that should come at the unfairness for lower league sides, and pretty much deny them the opportunity to progress. And no, 'they always want to play the PL sides' is not a good enough excuse for the seeding. Regardless of if the sides in Europe don't want to play each other, it's still better for the competition which is the main thing. And obviously there are only a limited number of teams in Europe so they can't be spread all across the League Cup evenly but being kept separate does help the balance even if it's just slightly. The best teams get into Europe and having the best teams in the latter stages is what every competition wants. They're not just given those spots either, they earn those spots through the league. They're also not guaranteed to go through. Nothing's "rigged". The League Cup further differentiating itself from The FA Cup is also a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 29 Subscriber Share Posted August 29 There's arguments for and against reforms for the domestic schedule but it's almost besides the point. Even if you think the outcome is for the better, the fact remains that a 92-team tournament is being adapted because a European tournament involving 6 of those teams has added extra games. Regardless of whether it's "rigged" or "pandering to them", the tournament is certainly being changed *because of them*. When we've already seen English football give up FA Cup replays to fixture congestion, in no small part because of some managers of elite clubs whinging constantly about their commitments, it's a bit of a piss take to then see the English domestic schedule undergo changes enforced by European competition adding extra games, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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