The Premier League and Ligue1

[SirBalon]

Here's something for debate...

Now, Manchester City are slowly clocking up a 20 point lead if they again end up with a victory away to Crystal Palace at midday today which is conceivable.  They will only be 4 points away from that feat and it's still only December. 

Perverse?

I don't know and that's not what I'm putting up for debate because they've played the games put out in front of them like every other club in the division and they've done what was necessary which is to win every single one bar the one draw.  That's not int question here.

My debating points are, is this a freak occurance?

What makes the Premier League different to France's Ligue1?

I've given Ligue1 a hell of a lot of stick for some time now both here and in the previous forum we were all housed in. It's only fair to do the same thing here and question the situation.

What's the difference between Manchester City and Paris Saint-Germain?

What are the present differences between England's Premier League and France's Ligue1?

Both PSG and Man City have many obvious things in common from the fact that they're both owned by the same Gulf State, not private owners, but a STATE!  They were both an unnoticed entity within European competition with maybe only PSG having a slightlier higher status in that sense than their English sister due to the fact that Man City we nobody in this sense before the Arabs bought it, but all the same, very similar.  Both PSG and City have ended up in such a monopolising situation that they seem to be streets ahead of anything else in their respective leagues.

Obviously there are some differences to take into account like;

• The Guardiola factor

Before Pep arrived, even including last season, this had never occurred and we're talking about the very first time this has happened on England's football shores.  A one off can be simply that and I could be precipitated by even daring to ask these questions.  It could infact be down to Guardiola? Or have a large part to do with him?  That part I don't know, but what I do know is that we now have exactly the same outcome this season as what has been occurring in France's Ligue1 more times than not... Massive points differences between PSG and everyone else habitually and when they take themselves seriously to do it. PSG has had several coaches and right now they have Unai Emery which doesn't compare to Guardiola.

• The Premier League is much more competitive in Europe than Ligue1 as a whole

This is without a doubt true because even in the Premier League's underachieving moments over the past decade or so, English clubs have always been present and although success has been diluted somewhat, it has been there.  But then again it's not all that long ago Olympique Lyonnaise (Lyon) were very competitive in Europe's premier tournament and a constant headache to all the top sides, previous to them Olympique Marseille had their moment too years back and in recent times we've had AS Monaco putting questions out there to Europe's more renowned names before they were raped mainly by PSG which is something Man City are also doing to a certain extent in the Premier League.  We can or could also add Bayern and their owning of Germany's Bundesliga but I've refrained from doing that because Bayern are and always have been one of the traditional elite in Europe and this in today's football was conceivable where they're concerned.

 

So what do you feel?

Is this season a prelude for seasons to come and an out and out dominance of Manchester City over the Premier League like Paris Saint-Germain have over Ligue1?

If I or anyone has been quick enough to criticise Ligue1 for their predicament, then it's only fair to question the Premier League even if this is the first time this is occurring. Remember that in France there was also a first time when it hapoened.

[Stan]

What do you mean 'end up like Ligue 1' though?

PSG didn't even win the league last season - Monaco upset the applecart and upset the monopoly so to speak. 

Yeah they won the 4 seasons before that but I think the Premier League will always be more competitive than Ligue 1. Man City's monopoly may just be about to begin but only time will tell if they can form a domestic monopoloy as well as a European one. They have a long way to go and PSG haven't even done the latter. 

Football is dead anyway so what does it matter ? 

[SirBalon]

35 minutes ago, Stan said:

What do you mean 'end up like Ligue 1' though?

PSG didn't even win the league last season - Monaco upset the applecart and upset the monopoly so to speak. 

Yeah they won the 4 seasons before that but I think the Premier League will always be more competitive than Ligue 1. Man City's monopoly may just be about to begin but only time will tell if they can form a domestic monopoloy as well as a European one. They have a long way to go and PSG haven't even done the latter. 

Football is dead anyway so what does it matter ? 

There was quite a bit of turmoil at PSG last season and they are at times culpable of not trying as absurd as that may sound due to their massive superiority compared to the rest.  But on that point I did add the part about Monaco adding some sort of resistance (one off mind you) to the Groundhog Day Syndrome that is habitually a part of Ligue1 these days.

But overall I'm putting the question out there and it's not because of all that uniquely or solely.  It's about various similarities between Manchester City and PSG and that anything resembling a 20 point (or there abouts) difference in DECEMBER is not usual for a competitive league.

I'm not saying that this is the case mate, I'm asking if this is a possibility and I've also put it out there if this is a coach (Guardiola) thing in the case of what's happening this season and not so much the financial clout of both City and PSG finally coming to fruition and that we may see this in the future happening maybe in other places.

It's a question and only that mate, you can surely see that the amount of points difference at this point is more than just extraordinary. 

Then again in Spain we have Barcelona running away with the title at the moment with a considerable margin from them and second placed Atlético Madrid... Real Madrid are in 4th and actually battling more to qualify for the Champions League next season than winning the title.  But the point difference between 1st and 4th in Spain is 14 points with Real having one game in hand which could be a reality of 11 points.  Obviously Spain doesn't have an Arab State run club with a bottomless pit of money to invest in it (something that's actually illegal in football), but the difference between the elite two and the rest is a settled argument unfortunately.

[Stan]

I do see the points difference and the absurdity of it. But these things don't last forever. 

If you mean for the Premier League to have no competition like Ligue 1 seemingly does (aside from an anomaly like Monaco winning last season), then to answer your question, I don't think it will end up like that.

Whether it's a coaching thing or a money thing or a personnel thing, the one aspect of the Premier League is that there will always be competition. No team has won it twice in a row since Utd in 2008/09 and that would be a credit to other teams fighting harder to stop the previous winner winning again or that league winner not being as good in the season after. Man City may win it again next season at this rate but what defines a monopoly? winning what and winning it for how many seasons in a row? Just winning the league for a few seasons (Like PSG before last season)? Or should a monopoly include winning Champions Leagues (something a side rarely does consecutively these days, aware Real Madrid have done it at the moment). 

[Honey Honey]

Would the Bundesliga not be a better comparison?

Bayern Munich league title wins and points difference...

2017 - 15

2016 - 10

2015 - 10

2014 - 19

2013 - 25

[Batard]

The Premier League has far and above more money compared to Ligue 1. Even your middle order to lesser sized clubs in England can afford more than most in Ligue 1. Ligue 1 Is more or less just under Serie A now in quality and Serie A is miles away from the Premier League. 

[SirBalon]

29 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Would the Bundesliga not be a better comparison?

Bayern Munich league title wins and points difference...

2017 - 15

2016 - 10

2015 - 10

2014 - 19

2013 - 25

I added a reference to the Bundesliga in the presentation post for the thread mate and I didn't include them because as I said, Bayern are one of the traditional elite.  I know you'll say, what does that matter if the outcome is the same if not more pronounced.

That's not what I'm essentially trying to state here... What I'm saying (and this responds to @Stan's last post too) is if we're now finally seeing the BIG MONEY injection (and I'm talking serious money here, not just takeovers) of State run clubs coming into an era of monopolisation. A points difference like this is totally abnormal!

This is why in the third option of the poll I have added the "Need more time to decide... Could be a one off".

Hypothetically speaking, if next season City were again to win by over a 10 to 12 point margin considering what @Batard has also stated that this particular league differently to other top leagues in Europe has medium to smaller sized clubs that have abundantly more money than their European counterparts in terms of where they finish in their respective league table... For me that's meaningless because of saturation in the cluster that lives as a collective.  It's like having a nation full of millionaires, it doesn't make anyone any better off in a capitalist system because you will always have inflation by comparison within the means of the context of a standard of living.  Their will always be those that have abundantly more tha live amongst us and they will set the standards of real success.

[Batard]

I think the situation in England is encapsulated by the dearth of quality coaches in the Premier League, that so many of the same old same old managers are recycled and bring little in new ideas to their new teams other than short term stability through fight ball.  I wouldn't look at City's team and say they were light years ahead of Bayern or Barcelona but the coaching techniques and attention to detail has exposed how stagnant a lot of coaching is here. With the exception of Conte and Pocchettino, the next raft of managers isn't particularly much to write home about.

[Dan+]

I think the standard outside of the top six is at an all-time low in England from my memory. People called it crap when we won the league but I reckon it's even worse now. We're very much a work in progress, started badly, are off form now, have had a bit of a run of form a few weeks ago and yet we're 8th in the table. In theory I think we should be about 13th for how good we've been yet we're not actually that far off pushing for a European place.

It's too early to call it a PSG like situation but Man City will walk it this year, and probably next too as it's possible they strengthen further. Given how lucrative the league is the others I think ought to be capable of being stronger than they are.

Man Utd underachieve for me. They're a better side than last year, slightly, but they should be better than this. For how much they've spent they should be at a similar kind of level to Man City and they're miles off.

[Smiley Culture]

Considering Guardiola has stayed at the two clubs he’s managed, including the club where he was a legend as a player, for four years and three years, I don’t think it’s much to worry about. 

Chelsea will spend big again, as will United, Liverpool have started paying big and Tottenham have the ability to spend big. Someone will break City’s dominance but I reckon, much like the 90’s were United’s era, this is City’s era. 

[Redcanuck]

I think half a season is too soon to decide this.  Man City certainly have raised the bar, just like Chelsea did when Abrahovic took over.  The amount of money in the premier makes me believe the top teams will respond to City just like they responded to Chelsea a dozen years ago. I do worry about Spurs and Arsenal though, their owners don't seem willing to spend that money either through increasing their wage structures or paying the current transfer fees.  Perhaps it will mean the premier goes back to a top four, instead of the current top six.

[SirBalon]

43 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

I think half a season is too soon to decide this.  Man City certainly have raised the bar, just like Chelsea did when Abrahovic took over.  The amount of money in the premier makes me believe the top teams will respond to City just like they responded to Chelsea a dozen years ago. I do worry about Spurs and Arsenal though, their owners don't seem willing to spend that money either through increasing their wage structures or paying the current transfer fees.  Perhaps it will mean the premier goes back to a top four, instead of the current top six.

In relation to spending and then responding... In a situation such as that one, football isn't like that. You don't watch what your rival does and then wait and see.  Clubs at that level are always looking for more ways to better themselves and while other financially strong clubs will be looking for answers as to what's occurring, Man city won't be resting on their laurels!

For all of Chelsea and Manchester United's financial clout like a few others, City are financed by a State, they're bankrolled by Qatar and Abramović like Man Utd's owners are pawns compared to them.  Until the situation revolving foreign state funding of football clubs is resolved (the case against PSG is currently being investigated and obviously involves Man City) then this will continue and become more acute.

That part wasn't in my initial post presenting this debate but I thought everyone was upto date and in the know of what's been occurring since the Neymar signing by Paris Saint-Germain.

As for wage structures in the reference you make about Arsenal... Long gone are the days of how Arsenal FC used to run things in an orderly manner where wages are concerned. If I'm not mistaken, Arsenal spend the most (if not the most, they're right up there) on player wages annually. Take for example the alleged offers they've made to both Özil and Alexis for them to renew their ending contracts at the club.  What Arsenal can't do or won't do (I actually back that but they could've been up to date time back if they'd spent back then when transfer fees weren't so perverse) is sign players consistently above the £60m mark which is now what you have to pay for premium players if you're not buying them from those that already play in the Premier League... If you sign or try to sign players from the Premier League, then you're gonna pay top dollar for an experiment based on the fact they're already playing in the league which isn't the be all and end all.  Just think about players that were brought from abroad in the past and didn't take too long to dominate the situation.

[Redcanuck]

6 hours ago, SirBalon said:

In relation to spending and then responding... In a situation such as that one, football isn't like that. You don't watch what your rival does and then wait and see.  Clubs at that level are always looking for more ways to better themselves and while other financially strong clubs will be looking for answers as to what's occurring, Man city won't be resting on their laurels!

For all of Chelsea and Manchester United's financial clout like a few others, City are financed by a State, they're bankrolled by Qatar and Abramović like Man Utd's owners are pawns compared to them.  Until the situation revolving foreign state funding of football clubs is resolved (the case against PSG is currently being investigated and obviously involves Man City) then this will continue and become more acute.

That part wasn't in my initial post presenting this debate but I thought everyone was upto date and in the know of what's been occurring since the Neymar signing by Paris Saint-Germain.

As for wage structures in the reference you make about Arsenal... Long gone are the days of how Arsenal FC used to run things in an orderly manner where wages are concerned. If I'm not mistaken, Arsenal spend the most (if not the most, they're right up there) on player wages annually. Take for example the alleged offers they've made to both Özil and Alexis for them to renew their ending contracts at the club.  What Arsenal can't do or won't do (I actually back that but they could've been up to date time back if they'd spent back then when transfer fees weren't so perverse) is sign players consistently above the £60m mark which is now what you have to pay for premium players if you're not buying them from those that already play in the Premier League... If you sign or try to sign players from the Premier League, then you're gonna pay top dollar for an experiment based on the fact they're already playing in the league which isn't the be all and end all.  Just think about players that were brought from abroad in the past and didn't take too long to dominate the situation.

I realise teams constantly try to improve, but I believe Abramovich 's initial spending at Chelsea and the money PSG and City have spent recently did catch teams out and they have had to react by spending more than they expected.

I do believe Nation States owning clubs is a problem that needs to be addressed. I didn't mention that because as an United fan it would have probably been seen as sour grapes.  I have to admit I am not fully aware of the investigation into PSG's over their spending.  I remember reading something about it in September, but have not heard anything since. Is it all that serious or will it turn out like other violations of the FFP rules and will not make much difference?

[Guest]

Ligue 1 is the worst (or second worst) of Europe's top 5 but sometimes people make it out to be way worst than it actually is. In some ways it's a bit underrated.

Its hard to rank what Europes best league is. La Liga has slipped off a bit but I'd still put it in first. Premier League second for now, Serie A third and 4th and 5th is a close battle between the Bundesliga and Ligue 1.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Dan said:

I think the standard outside of the top six is at an all-time low in England from my memory. People called it crap when we won the league but I reckon it's even worse now. We're very much a work in progress, started badly, are off form now, have had a bit of a run of form a few weeks ago and yet we're 8th in the table. In theory I think we should be about 13th for how good we've been yet we're not actually that far off pushing for a European place.

It's too early to call it a PSG like situation but Man City will walk it this year, and probably next too as it's possible they strengthen further. Given how lucrative the league is the others I think ought to be capable of being stronger than they are.

Man Utd underachieve for me. They're a better side than last year, slightly, but they should be better than this. For how much they've spent they should be at a similar kind of level to Man City and they're miles off.

It's not just Man City "strengthening" for me. They also have young talent who are not yet in their prime. Insane how good they are right now.

[UNORTHODOX]

I think City could win 2 or 3 titles in a row like United did but the other clubs around them Chelsea & Man United in particular will try everything in their power to put a stop to it before they can achieve total domination over the league like PSG. It's not like those clubs can't spend a shit ton of money and attract top players.

[Honey Honey]

Man City aren't freaks because they outspent others, they are freaks because of their manager. Many Premier League teams have vastly outspent the league and not achieved this. Including previous Man City sides.

I will say it is not the same as ligue 1 because ligue 1 never had players of PSG's calibre. There is nothing about Man City individually that hasn't always existed in England.

The amount of money might on paper be a bigger figure but they are not better players than what the top teams were buying before this money. The calibre of player is always a fixed amount.