No Further Action to be Taken After Firmino/Holgate Incident

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

If they can prove that Holgate knowingly made a false accusation to try and get Firmino banned which is still completely farfetched for me, then yes he should be punished.

But that won't happen because nobody can prove that's what he did and I seriously doubt seconds after the petulant shove on Firmino that Holgate was calm enough to do something so premeditated to someone who is basically the same skin colour as him.

If he didn't say anything that sounds like "nigger" "negro" or "negrito" then Holgate most likely fabricated it. And why would he fabricate it? There's an implication. And there's a video where you can read him saying to a teammate "he called me a nigger" (admittedly I'm not a lipreader, but it was on Twitter and it does look like he said that). So to think this was true he'd need to have said a word close to that word. And if he didn't then the panel will have an inference they can either make or not make.

The standard of proof for Suarez's hearing was a "preponderance of the evidence" and their findings were that it was basically one man's word against the other, but they thought one was more likely to be true than the other. So they would need to see if the implication is likely to be true on the facts presented to him. So it depends what each player presents as evidence.

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

Actually "negro" is a better and more respectful term to refer to a black person than "preto" in brazilian portuguese.

Differently from english, the word "negro" itself is not offensive. My mom is half-black and some of her best friends call her "negra", in an affecionate way.

The main racial slur in Brazil is "macaco" ("monkey").  

I was unaware of that mate... Sounds similar to the south of Italy where for some reason they also use the Spanish for black “negro” to refer to black people instead of the Italian word “Nero” which although not deemed as racist if used, it is more inappropriate and maybe disrespectful.  I know that Spain’s rule for 200 years in the south of Italy left a lot of Spanish words and many terminologies that exist today.

Maybe @Machado can fill us in the Portugal’s Portuguese terms of phrase in cases such as these. I know my many Portuguese friends in London (although they were born in London like myself) use the word “Preto” to refer to a black person without any disrespect intended.

Let me just add for those that can’t fathom how these things work in the Latin speaking world and culture and I’m going to leave a phrase commonly used without any disrespect or thought of mind directed at being racist or disrespectful to black people when used.  It’s commonly used even today and I’m sure many in the Anglo speaking world will find it shocking and even though I’ve just finished saying nothing is meant by it at all they will still deem a person using it racist. This is what I’m talking about that the cultural differences are immense and should be first understood before labelling or punishing occurs. But the way, this exact phrase (obviously in Italian) is also used in Italy.

”Hoy trabajé como un negro”

Translated:

”Today I worked like a black man”

This phrase is used when someone has put in a serious hard shift at work and is usually used by those that work in heavy manual labour. Shocked?  I’m sure you guys are, but I can guarantee you that absolutely nothing racial is in anyone’s mind when using it even though you won’t be able to get your heads around it which is understandable.

[RandoEFC+]

I'm already sick of debating this. Shall we agree on both sides that we should stop spouting "yeah well if" comebacks about what might have been said and which Portuguese swear words may or may not sound like nigger?

Just saying you lot are digging yourselves a pretty big hole here if it does turn out that Firmino said something out of order.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

I'm already sick of debating this. Shall we agree on both sides that we should stop spouting "yeah well if" comebacks about what might have been said and which Portuguese swear words may or may not sound like nigger?

Just saying you lot are digging yourselves a pretty big hole here if it does turn out that Firmino said something out of order.

If he does turn out to have said something out of order, I've said he should be banned so I don't agree that I've dug a hole for myself.

I just think the situation is stupid. The likelihood of a guy pretty much the same color as another saying a racial slur just sounds fucking retarded to me.

[Redcanuck]

For all the lip readers out there, Firmino calling him a son of a whore is not what set Holgate off. Holgate did not react to that, he reacted to what was said next.  Firmino must have said something after that which we can't pick up, because their heads have turned and Kenny's head is in the way.   It still maybe a misunderstanding, but unless there is another view of the video, we can't say for sure.

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If he does turn out to have said something out of order, I've said he should be banned so I don't agree that I've dug a hole for myself.

I just think the situation is stupid. The likelihood of a guy pretty much the same color as another saying a racial slur just sounds fucking retarded to me.

True and I don't think he did but it's also even more retarded to suggest that Holgate would have deliberately accused him of it in front of the referee who must surely have heard whatever the comment was, to get Firmino a ban because I can't see many footballers being bright enough to think up a cunning plan like that in the heat of the moment but here we are already on page two.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If he does turn out to have said something out of order, I've said he should be banned so I don't agree that I've dug a hole for myself.

I just think the situation is stupid. The likelihood of a guy pretty much the same color as another saying a racial slur just sounds fucking retarded to me.

I think the most likely scenario is that Holgate, after launching Firmino into the fans, realised he might be in trouble, heard Firmino shout obscenities that he didn’t understand and pulled the race card to redirect the referee’s attention. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

True and I don't think he did but it's also even more retarded to suggest that Holgate would have deliberately accused him of it in front of the referee who must surely have heard whatever the comment was, to get Firmino a ban because I can't see many footballers being bright enough to think up a cunning plan like that in the heat of the moment but here we are already on page two.

That's true, but I guess we shouldn't rule out the fact that football players are very capable of being fucking retarded.

I think it's more likely any racial abuse came from the stands. I could see that being the case, one of our players is pushed into a group of our fans and some thick racist cunt says something racist and MAYBE that's what Holgate heard. And then he wouldn't be wrong about hearing a racial slur, saw an angry shouting Firmino, and just got the source of the slur wrong. And that could ever be proven to be the case, that fan should be banned from our matches because fuck racism.

But how we'd ever find that out... I have no idea, because we probably wouldn't.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I think the most likely scenario is that Holgate, after launching Firmino into the fans, realised he might be in trouble, heard Firmino shout obscenities that he didn’t understand and pulled the race card to redirect the referee’s attention. 

If that were the case, it's pretty fucking confusing as to why nobody was sent off or booked. Well confusing... unless you know this referee is dogshit.

[Redcanuck]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

I think the most likely scenario is that Holgate, after launching Firmino into the fans, realised he might be in trouble, heard Firmino shout obscenities that he didn’t understand and pulled the race card to redirect the referee’s attention. 

You have to hope that is not true, pretty disgusting if it is.  If Firmino didn't say anything racist, hopefully Holgate just misunderstood what he heard.

[LFCMadLad]

A racist - 

a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

 

Firmino isn’t a racist. Not even close and neither is Suarez. 

[RandoEFC+]

7 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I think the most likely scenario is that Holgate, after launching Firmino into the fans, realised he might be in trouble, heard Firmino shout obscenities that he didn’t understand and pulled the race card to redirect the referee’s attention. 

Possible maybe but most likely? Pfft. Holgate wasn't going to get sent off only booked if the referee wasn't totally inept so I don't see why he'd feel the need to or be smart enough to think like that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, LFCMadLad said:

A racist - 

a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

 

Firmino isn’t a racist. Not even close and neither is Suarez. 

Tbf we don't know if they're racist. I think it's not likely Firmino used a racial slur against someone the same colour as him, but maybe he's a mixed race supremacist.

As far as footballers in England go the most obvious instances are Suarez calling Everyone negrito (like 9 times or something retarded), and calling someone "little black" is racist as fuck in England. But Spanish speakers say it's not too racist in their culture. And Vardy abusing that Asian in a casino, which is 100% outright racism. But he's English so that's alright, for some fucking reason.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

Possible maybe but most likely? Pfft. Holgate wasn't going to get sent off only booked if the referee wasn't totally inept so I don't see why he'd feel the need to or be smart enough to think like that.

He should have been sent off, it was unnecessary and dangerous. That's why I wasn't surprised at Firmino being fucking furious afterwards. A yellow (or no booking, as we saw) would have been true inept refereeing (which the match did have).

[RandoEFC+]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He should have been sent off, it was unnecessary and dangerous. That's why I wasn't surprised at Firmino being fucking furious afterwards. A yellow (or no booking, as we saw) would have been true inept refereeing (which the match did have).

Disagree though I knew this would be the next thing. He shoved him in the back, if it was in the centre circle he'd have got a yellow, if the ground was less slippery or they were playing at Wembley then he'd not have ended up in the crowd, he should have got a yellow then too because it's the foul of the offender that should be punished not the consequence even though that's not the reality in football unfortunately.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Disagree though I knew this would be the next thing. He shoved him in the back, if it was in the centre circle he'd have got a yellow, if the ground was less slippery or they were playing at Wembley then he'd not have ended up in the crowd, he should have got a yellow then too because it's the foul of the offender that should be punished not the consequence even though that's not the reality in football unfortunately.

He wasn't at Wembley though - I think the foul and what happens to the fouled player need to be evaluated on the circumstances as they were. Maybe it was reckless and petulant and Holgate didn't mean for him to go into the crowd... but in other contexts we punish reckless behavior's unintended consequences.

We will probably disagree, but I think a better ref wouldn't have given either of the two penalties in the last 2 derbies (because I think they're both very soft and I wish more referees would treat fouls in/around the box the same as if they were not in/around the box). But he also would have given a red for that instance. And we should have seen a lot more yellows yesterday I think, on both sides.

[Burning Gold]

6 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Disagree though I knew this would be the next thing. He shoved him in the back, if it was in the centre circle he'd have got a yellow, if the ground was less slippery or they were playing at Wembley then he'd not have ended up in the crowd, he should have got a yellow then too because it's the foul of the offender that should be punished not the consequence even though that's not the reality in football unfortunately.

Context is important in this case, though. The fact Holgate pushed him into the crowd made it more than a petulant shove, it made it dangerous, which warrants a more serious punishment.

Whether or not it should've been a red isn't entirely relevant for this hypothesis; all it requires is that Holgate believed he was in danger of being sent off, which I can definitely believe.

[Spike]

Luis Suarez referred to his wife as 'negra' 

[SirBalon]

8 minutes ago, Spike said:

Luis Suarez referred to his wife as 'negra' 

Talking about that, could’ve used it earlier infact... A friend of mine from Mexico is married to a black guy (from Putney) and she refers to him as “mi negrito”. 

[SirBalon]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Talking about that, could’ve used it earlier infact... A friend of mine from Mexico is married to a black guy (from Putney) and she refers to him as “mi negrito”. 

Maybe people from the Republic of Putney are more tolerant and more observant.

I know it’s easy... I know she knows him and that there’s an understanding there so no need for someone to come now and state the fact.  Just that it shows common jargon and cultural expressions.

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Talking about that, could’ve used it earlier infact... A friend of mine from Mexico is married to a black guy (from Putney) and she refers to him as “mi negrito”. 

An Hispanophone  says something to a Senegalese-Frenchman that is arbitrated by an English association. Sounds like the set up for a bad joke.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

An Hispanophone  says something to a Senegalese-Frenchman that is arbitrated by an English association. Sounds like the set up for a bad joke.

It’s just a wonderful recipe for the press... They probably couldn’t believe their eyes when it all occurred and as the news started filtering through... Imagine the thoughts running through a sport’s journalist’s head at that moment...

”Flippin’eck... I was busy mustering the next transfer rumour while looking through the TransferMarkt website and all of a sudden been thrown some red meat on my plate!” 

[Spike]

I once got a sideways look from a buddy when I called my coffee [a] 'café negro'. He said 'you gotta be careful with that Spanish, people will hear what they want to hear'. @SirBalon Sometimes it isnt a question of what is said but what is heard,

[SirBalon]

37 minutes ago, Spike said:

I once got a sideways look from a buddy when I called my coffee [a] 'café negro'. He said 'you gotta be careful with that Spanish, people will hear what they want to hear'. @SirBalon Sometimes it isnt a question of what is said but what is heard,

And what’s the problem with what’s been heard most of the time?

It tends to be based on a reactionary basis of one’s own conceptions of interpretation in the way they’ve been conditioned to think.  Nothing is wrong, what’s wrong is when people are labelled without detecting (if you’re smart) or questioning intentions first and foremost.

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Possible maybe but most likely? Pfft. Holgate wasn't going to get sent off only booked if the referee wasn't totally inept so I don't see why he'd feel the need to or be smart enough to think like that.

Wouldn’t get sent off for pushing a player into a set of fans and then laying his hands on the referee? 

Youd like to think so.