Other News & General Chat

[Azeem]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Does Afghanistan count as a coup? It was more of a total collapse of a government, imo. But I guess it was a coup in that power was seized...

Yes definitely a coup and after Tunisian one where Biden administration is actually involved 

[MUFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/17ZGH1psPrzN6cKCF5c8jWt/virginity-myths-and-the-lies-people-tell-you

[MUFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58312144

[Azeem]

The power department of Egypt cut off the electricity of water department and water department cut off the water of power department in return.

[Azeem]

Tajikistan's President is a real life General Aladeen

[Azeem]

Quote

Staring a counter of all the attempted coups around the world since Biden took office.

 

Myanmar - 11 days in office

Armenia - One month and five days in office 

Jordan - Three months, two weeks and one day in office

Tunisia - 6 months and 6 days in office

Afghanistan - 7 months, three weeks and one day in office

Update

Guinea - 7 months, 2 weeks and 2 days in office

Total  = 6

 

[Azeem]

French cement & building material giant Lafarge had financial ties to ISIS and kept intelligence services back at home aware of it. ISIS generated revenue selling off their cement. Started off as sending cement to all armed groups in Syria in 2014-15.

[Batard]

6 minutes ago, Khan of TF365 said:

French cement & building material giant Lafarge had financial ties to ISIS and kept intelligence services back at home aware of it. ISIS generated revenue selling off their cement. Started off as sending cement to all armed groups in Syria in 2014-15.

Sounds like concrete evidence to me 

[MUFC]

Notting Hill crash kills 3.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58555703

[MUFC]

Food prices on the rise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58563417

[MUFC]

WTF 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/15/shamima-begum-tells-uk-could-help-fight-terrorism-clearly-dont/

[Azeem]

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 15/09/2021 at 02:44, MUFC said:

WTF 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/15/shamima-begum-tells-uk-could-help-fight-terrorism-clearly-dont/

She’s probably right, but she’s still a terrorist traitor so I think it’s right for the government to want nothing to do with her.

[Azeem]

French govt is pissed Australia ditched them and swapped their nuclear subs contract with US to counter China. 

Plot twist France teams up with China !

[Stan]

15 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

She’s probably right, but she’s still a terrorist traitor so I think it’s right for the government to want nothing to do with her.

It's funny how people believe what Prince Andrew did grooming girls years and years ago and want him sent to USA to face punishment. But not want to believe that Shamima could have been groomed at 15 years old to be taken to join ISIS and don't want her brought back to the UK. 

 

[Danny]

35 minutes ago, Stan said:

It's funny how people believe what Prince Andrew did grooming girls years and years ago and want him sent to USA to face punishment. But not want to believe that Shamima could have been groomed at 15 years old to be taken to join ISIS and don't want her brought back to the UK. 

 

It's proper go back to your own country vibes. She's born and bred a British citizen, should never have been able to revoke her citizenship. Wouldn't have happened if she were white, would probably have been told to just read instead. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison

[DeadLinesman]

Love a good bit of whataboutism on a Friday morning. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

It's funny how people believe what Prince Andrew did grooming girls years and years ago and want him sent to USA to face punishment. But not want to believe that Shamima could have been groomed at 15 years old to be taken to join ISIS and don't want her brought back to the UK. 

 

It’s not that long ago she went on tv and celebrated ISIS killing people at that concert in Manchester.

I would just have a hard time trusting that she’s not still a terrorist

[Stan]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It’s not that long ago she went on tv and celebrated ISIS killing people at that concert in Manchester.

 

I don't recall this  

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

I don't recall this  

While I’m sympathetic to young people being radicalised… to an extent…

… I’m not really sympathetic at all to young Western kids of middle eastern descent getting radicalised and joining Wahhabi groups like ISIS.

Of all people in the west, they should know best how fucking bad groups like ISIS are. And I know that the bigotry they race is a big cause that pushes them towards joining these groups but… experiencing bigotry doesn’t mean you should go become a terrorist.

I do think she’s a victim to an extent. She was groomed to be a child wife. But I also think she should have known a lot fucking better and joining a terror group is a pretty serious thing, it’s not something easily forgivable

[Stan]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

While I’m sympathetic to young people being radicalised… to an extent…

… I’m not really sympathetic at all to young Western kids of middle eastern descent getting radicalised and joining Wahhabi groups like ISIS.

Of all people in the west, they should know best how fucking bad groups like ISIS are. And I know that the bigotry they race is a big cause that pushes them towards joining these groups but… experiencing bigotry doesn’t mean you should go become a terrorist.

I do think she’s a victim to an extent. She was groomed to be a child wife. But I also think she should have known a lot fucking better and joining a terror group is a pretty serious thing, it’s not something easily forgivable

I meant where she went on TV and celebrated ISIS bombing the Manchester concert - I don't recall that.

You say 'she should have known a lot fucking better'. We all would as kids. But I have no idea about her situation or when the grooming may have even started. We're definitely not talking days or as soon as she turns 15 she's readily packing her bags and fucking off to be a terrorist. None of us can put ourselves in her shoes and even begin to pretend what kind of life she grew up with or what nasty people she grew up around and sadly got involved with - they're the real perpetrators. 

I don't know how old you are (or how old she was when she started being potentially groomed to join ISIS). Let's say a few years before turning 15. Do you remember what was going on around the world as an 11-12 year old and the ramifications of what would happen if you were to be groomed or coerced into doing something you didn't want to do? Can you begin to imagine the lack of self-control you'd have in that scenario? 

Also - what do people expect, really, to happen if she is brought back to UK? Do those saying 'keep her out of the UK' really expect her to just be let loose if she is allowed to return? She'll be watched like a fucking hawk.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

I meant where she went on TV and celebrated ISIS bombing the Manchester concert - I don't recall that.

You say 'she should have known a lot fucking better'. We all would as kids. But I have no idea about her situation or when the grooming may have even started. We're definitely not talking days or as soon as she turns 15 she's readily packing her bags and fucking off to be a terrorist. None of us can put ourselves in her shoes and even begin to pretend what kind of life she grew up with or what nasty people she grew up around and sadly got involved with - they're the real perpetrators. 

I don't know how old you are (or how old she was when she started being potentially groomed to join ISIS). Let's say a few years before turning 15. Do you remember what was going on around the world as an 11-12 year old and the ramifications of what would happen if you were to be groomed or coerced into doing something you didn't want to do? Can you begin to imagine the lack of self-control you'd have in that scenario? 

Also - what do people expect, really, to happen if she is brought back to UK? Do those saying 'keep her out of the UK' really expect her to just be let loose if she is allowed to return? She'll be watched like a fucking hawk.  

If when I was 15 if some people groomed me to join the IRGC or MEK (probably the 2 closest things for an British-Iranian with a Shia Muslim background to ISIS cos Shias wouldn’t join ISIS as they think they’re infidels and would kill them upon attempting to join)… I’d probably have told them to fuck off.

The reason my mum came to the UK in the first place rather than stayed at home is because Islamist shitheads ruined her country. I spent pretty much my whole life hearing about how they ruined the country.

I assume most middle eastern immigrants to the UK (and the west generally) have similar experiences. They left to get their families away from that kind of bullshit that ruined their homeland.

So maybe it’s her parents fault she wasn’t made more aware of why these people are dangerous weirdos. But while 15 is very young… it’s not young enough to be completely oblivious. I think most 15 year olds who’d have heard of ISIS should know they’re terrorist scum and shouldn’t be wanting to join them.

When I was 15 I think Bush and Blair had pulled us into an illegal bullshit war that was on TV all the time (and set the stage for the creation of ISIS that she’d be joining in the future). I might not have known as much about what was going on in the world, but I certainly wasn’t completely oblivious to current events.

And tbh, I don’t trust that the government would watch her like a hawk. The government’s had suspected terrorists come live in the UKand subsequently sat by as they’ve commit terror attacks.

[Stan]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If when I was 15 if some people groomed me to join the IRGC or MEK (probably the 2 closest things for an British-Iranian with a Shia Muslim background to ISIS cos Shias wouldn’t join ISIS as they think they’re infidels and would kill them upon attempting to join)… I’d probably have told them to fuck off.

The reason my mum came to the UK in the first place rather than stayed at home is because Islamist shitheads ruined her country. I spent pretty much my whole life hearing about how they ruined the country.

I assume most middle eastern immigrants to the UK (and the west generally) have similar experiences. They left to get their families away from that kind of bullshit that ruined their homeland.

So maybe it’s her parents fault she wasn’t made more aware of why these people are dangerous weirdos. But while 15 is very young… it’s not young enough to be completely oblivious. I think most 15 year olds who’d have heard of ISIS should know they’re terrorist scum and shouldn’t be wanting to join them.

When I was 15 I think Bush and Blair had pulled us into an illegal bullshit war that was on TV all the time (and set the stage for the creation of ISIS that she’d be joining in the future). I might not have known as much about what was going on in the world, but I certainly wasn’t completely oblivious to current events.

And tbh, I don’t trust that the government would watch her like a hawk. The government’s had suspected terrorists come live in the UKand subsequently sat by as they’ve commit terror attacks.

A few points to take from this:

- I don't deny or ignore your own experiences (you know I wouldn't!)

- I go back to the point that at 15, I doubt this was the first and immediate time she was being groomed. It probably started well before then. And when you've been coerced and controlled for potentially years before that, the decision is almost out of your hands by the time you get told that you're leaving the country. It's that 'brainwashing' thing - when you're 9, 10 or 11 how much do you really know (or care) about the world? Do we know anything about her childhood leading up to her leaving the UK? At that younger age, once you get picked up or groomed by someone, they hold so much on you and against you it's very difficult to get out of it - I've seen it first hand in my line of work just how easily kids (without a parent/both parents), get targeted and taken advantage of and used. They get all the fancy clothes and gadgets and privileges but that is so easily held against them. And that's just the beginning of the essence of grooming a child. 

- Regarding the last point - I agree; some have sadly slipped through the net and caused heinous terrorist acts and deaths. Not denying that either. But, as much as I hate the government we have right now, I doubt it's just those that have slipped through and that's it. There's probably hundreds and hundreds they've a) continued to watch and keep surveillance on and b) actually stopped other attacks happening. I don't trust the government at all but even they wouldn't be so blind or dumb enough to realise that she is in the public eye so they'd actually need to do something productive when keeping tracks on her. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

A few points to take from this:

- I don't deny or ignore your own experiences (you know I wouldn't!)

- I go back to the point that at 15, I doubt this was the first and immediate time she was being groomed. It probably started well before then. And when you've been coerced and controlled for potentially years before that, the decision is almost out of your hands by the time you get told that you're leaving the country. It's that 'brainwashing' thing - when you're 9, 10 or 11 how much do you really know (or care) about the world? Do we know anything about her childhood leading up to her leaving the UK? At that younger age, once you get picked up or groomed by someone, they hold so much on you and against you it's very difficult to get out of it - I've seen it first hand in my line of work just how easily kids (without a parent/both parents), get targeted and taken advantage of and used. They get all the fancy clothes and gadgets and privileges but that is so easily held against them. And that's just the beginning of the essence of grooming a child. 

- Regarding the last point - I agree; some have sadly slipped through the net and caused heinous terrorist acts and deaths. Not denying that either. But, as much as I hate the government we have right now, I doubt it's just those that have slipped through and that's it. There's probably hundreds and hundreds they've a) continued to watch and keep surveillance on and b) actually stopped other attacks happening. I don't trust the government at all but even they wouldn't be so blind or dumb enough to realise that she is in the public eye so they'd actually need to do something productive when keeping tracks on her. 

I think you raise a good point on it maybe taking years to have brainwashed her and groomed her to be a child bride. There's a good case to make that she is a victim. However, what little I know about ISIS radicalisation and recruitment online is that... it sadly doesn't take very long to recruit young western middle eastern descent men into "joining the cause" or at least it wasn't during the height of ISIS. And these were teens we're talking about that I think were old enough to know exactly what ISIS were and what they were signing up for.

And all they really had to do to double check what they were getting themselves into was do a quick Google search and news about the atrocities they were committing in Iraq and Syria at the time would have been all over those google results.

Now to be fair, all that I've read about how these people operate when they radicalise people is how they get young men from the west to join up as fighters - which is a bit different to how they'd recruit women, I imagine, so I don't know if we can apply the same time tables in this.

But again, a quick google search could get tons of sources of what the fuck they'd have been getting themselves into. And that begs the question, even if you've been radicalised to believe that maybe western media is lying about what's happening... it's pretty much every news source (even some Middle Eastern news sources) that would be covering the exact same thing and giving the same news about the same atrocities... how do you willingly say "yes" to that kind of shit and that kind of lifestyle when you've grown up in the west? I imagine even the least comfortable life in the west is better than willingly sending yourself to an inhumane warzone.

Let alone willingly signing up to be on the side committing acts of terror and daily human rights violations. And at the end of the day, she was more than just a child bride. She was involved with being a part of the "morality police" of ISIS. If that's like the morality police of Iran or Saudi Arabia (and tbh, I assume it's worse... because it's a group of die hard fanatical psychopaths), she's a human rights abusing cunt that probably got people killed for petty little things like "listening to western music"

I know bigotry and Islamophobia are prevalent and a big factor in radicalising people... but to then join the people probably most responsible for these kind of views being so widespread? And the fact that it's people like ISIS and the rampant instability of the region that led so many of these peoples parents to try to get their kids away from that kind of shit... I just think it's mental, I don't understand it.

I definitely blame the people behind the radicalisation quite a bit... but some of the blame has to be directed to these people who get radicalised as well. They were radicalised on the internet, so they know how to get on the internet and if you can do that... you should be able to know exactly what the fuck ISIS (or any group trying to recruit you) is.

So I don't think it's right to just wash their hands of any responsibility for their actions. If you join up with a terror group that's committed some horrific attacks worldwide, but also notably in your home country... and then in an interview justify those same attacks (although to her "credit" she did say that innocent people shouldn't have been killed - but in the same sentence she justifies the attack on a group of innocents).

There are consequences to joining a group of mass murdering fuckheads and you hold a degree of complicity with their mass murder when you participate in their reign of terror. It's just a weird situation where I think she's a victim to an extent, but I also think she's definitely guilty of some serious wrongdoing. And I'm not convinced however much she was a victim outweighs her complicity in crimes against humanity.

And at the end of the day, even if she is deradicalised and even if she could be useful in helping the UK stop terror attacks (and tbh, I suspect if she is truly deradicalised she could be used as a tool to help deradicalise others)... I just don't think any western government can trust someone who did what she did. In ordinary circumstances, I'd agree that leaving someone stateless is a human rights violation - but with her complicity in her own horrific human rights violations... I'm not so sure it's so much of a human rights violation as much as it is a consequence of joining a group of mass murdering human rights violators.

The only way I think she should be allowed back in the UK is if she's not allowed to leave, all of her internet/phone activity... and really all of her activities, are actively monitored (actively monitored humans, not just data collection that gets combed through eventually)... and if she's actively working with the government to aid in deradicalisation and stopping the spread of terror groups in the UK. So she could be back home in the UK - but she'd also be more of an asset to the UK that is monitored and controlled by whoever is in charge of counter-terror in the UK than a free person. And that's assuming she's not charged criminally for her involvement in any human rights abuses that took part in the areas she was in... and any jailtime would also require her being constantly monitored to make sure she's not radicalising anyone in prison.

[Azeem]

Staring a counter of all the attempted coups around the world since Biden took office.

 

Myanmar - 11 days in office

Armenia - One month and five days in office 

Jordan - Three months, two weeks and one day in office

Tunisia - 6 months and 6 days in office

Afghanistan - 7 months, three weeks and one day in office

Guinea - 7 months, 2 weeks and 2 days in office

Update

Sudan - 8 months and one day in office

Total  = 7