Militant Veganism

[Guest]

I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian myself however I do kind of agree with the morals.  Lately you hear about militant veganism. Vegans being very forceful going into the shops before Christmas ect. One thing that I find quite interesting is I don't think people really get it. I mean you hear people say they should live and let live and respect people right to eat meat ect. However this is a bit naive and missing the point. See these vegans don't believe in mine or yours right to eat meat. They believe it is wrong and they will protest in the same way people protested against slavery ect. Being respectful and caring about people's right to eat meat doesn't come into it. If in 200 years times people don't eat meat they will be seen as the people that made it happen.

Thoughts?

[Rab]

I don't see where it stops with Vegan's though. I seen an article the other day asking whether people know if their energy supplier was vegan or not. Apparently mine (bulb) aren't because they burn manure for fuel, which seems fine but there was an uproar about where the manure was coming from; was it coming from abused animals.

Everything affects animals.

[Stan]

Totally fine with people being vegan - personal choice and all that.

Just hate when it's forced down mine or someone else's throat (no pun intended) even though that person also has their own choice on whether to be a meat-eater or not as well. Like religion - fine if you believe in it but doesn't mean everyone else has to subscribe to that thinking practically either. 

 

[Danny]

They are annoying, especially the freaks who wear the V for Vendetta masks. But with that said "militant veganism" is needed in this day and age considering our poor consumer habits. If it wasn't for militant vegans then the west would still not know what a vegan is.

[nudge]

3 minutes ago, Danny said:

They are annoying, especially the freaks who wear the V for Vendetta masks. But with that said "militant veganism" is needed in this day and age considering our poor consumer habits. If it wasn't for militant vegans then the west would still not know what a vegan is.

I see what you mean but anything militant often provokes an opposite reaction from people. That certainly applies to me; I find them so annoying that my automatic answer to that is not to contemplate our poor consumer habits but to eat even more meat instead of less. 

[Azeem]

1 minute ago, nudge said:

I see what you mean but anything militant often provokes an opposite reaction from people. That certainly applies to me; I find them so annoying that my automatic answer to that is not to contemplate our poor consumer habits but to eat even more meat instead of less. 

nudge got no chill 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Stan said:

Totally fine with people being vegan - personal choice and all that.

Just hate when it's forced down mine or someone else's throat (no pun intended) even though that person also has their own choice on whether to be a meat-eater or not as well. Like religion - fine if you believe in it but doesn't mean everyone else has to subscribe to that thinking practically either. 

 

It might well annoy you. It annoys a lot of people. However from a vegan point of view they will say that doesn't matter in the same way people didn't respect others right to own slaves years ago

[nudge]

1 minute ago, Azeem said:

nudge got no chill 

I've got no chill when it comes to anyone preaching anything to me  

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Rab said:

I don't see where it stops with Vegan's though. I seen an article the other day asking whether people know if their energy supplier was vegan or not. Apparently mine (bulb) aren't because they burn manure for fuel, which seems fine but there was an uproar about where the manure was coming from; was it coming from abused animals.

Everything affects animals.

I think the vegan society says veganism is about doing the best you can. They don't deny somewhere along the lines an animal will be affected.

[Eco]

11 minutes ago, Danny said:

They are annoying, especially the freaks who wear the V for Vendetta masks. But with that said "militant veganism" is needed in this day and age considering our poor consumer habits. If it wasn't for militant vegans then the west would still not know what a vegan is.

I have never heard of this term, 'militant veganism' before. Just a quick google search shows a lot of results for the UK and France, but nothing in the US. 

Sounds ridiculous really. I mean I'm a vegetarian, and was a vegan for about a year. Very few people know I'm vegetarian as I don't wear it on my chest or talk about it constantly. I don't understand why being people feel the need to throw their personal beliefs and views on others, when certainly they realize that it'll only draw people away from the extremism. 

[Cicero]

In terms of nutrition and morality, there is no way you can argue against Veganism. The only suitable argument against it, is it's effect on the economy if everything were to be 'vegan'. Major corporations would shut down and the food industry would take a drastic shift. 

Extreme veganism is an annoyance. I was actually approached by one when she assumed the jacket I was wearing was made out of real goose feathers.

I simply told them "Oh yeah, I know i'm a hypocrite". She was dumbfounded by my answer given I knew exactly what she would criticise me of.

She then, like clockwork, said "Then you should be fine if I over powered you, killed you, then made your skin as a jacket?" 

I simply laughed and replied "Well I wouldn't be OK with it, but I accept the logic of it". 

[Azeem]

3 minutes ago, Eco said:

I have never heard of this term, 'militant veganism' before. Just a quick google search shows a lot of results for the UK and France, but nothing in the US. 

Sounds ridiculous really. I mean I'm a vegetarian, and was a vegan for about a year. Very few people know I'm vegetarian as I don't wear it on my chest or talk about it constantly. I don't understand why being people feel the need to throw their personal beliefs and views on others, when certainly they realize that it'll only draw people away from the extremism. 

Veganism for those vegans is not a principle i.e internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and right

But rather a rule or a doctrine to do the thing that has been deemed good or right. 

And they base that on reasons @Cicerosaid, morality etc 

Its like gun culture, i don't like owning a gun but that's not just a personal choice i will protest ammunition being mainstream in the society if after every other day there is a shooting incident. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

In terms of nutrition and morality, there is no way you can argue against Veganism. The only suitable argument against it, is it's effect on the economy if everything were to be 'vegan'. Major corporations would shut down and the food industry would take a drastic shift. 

Extreme veganism is an annoyance. I was actually approached by one when she assumed the jacket I was wearing was made out of real goose feathers.

I simply told them "Oh yeah, I know i'm a hypocrite". She was dumbfounded by my answer given I knew exactly what she would criticise me of.

She then, like clockwork, said "Then you should be fine if I over powered you, killed you, then made your skin as a jacket?" 

I simply laughed and replied "Well I wouldn't be OK with it, but I accept the logic of it". 

From what I have seen the nutrition arguments are nonsense. I read somewhere only eggs had vitamin e12 however a quick google search disproved that. I'm pretty certain it is a scientific fact you can get all the nutrition needed from a vegan diet. Also I makes me laugh when people who are really unhealthy say that.

The economy would collapse if everyone became vegan tomorrow. However if it happened over a gradual period it would be OK I imagine. One morality issue though is about all the wildlife that could potentially get killed through groin all the food needed if no one ate meat.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Azeem said:

Veganism for those vegans is not a principle i.e internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and right

But rather a rule or a doctrine to do the thing that has been deemed good or right. 

And they base that on reasons @Cicerosaid, morality etc 

Its like gun culture, i don't like owning a gun but that's not just a personal choice i will protest ammunition being mainstream in the society if after every other day there is a shooting incident. 

 

That's what I'm getting at. It's pretty ridiculous to say they should respect people right to eat meat. From their point of view it is something very immoral and they don't care about up setting people. Whether or not they would be better of using gentle persuasion or be very aggressive is debatable I guess. However these vegans will do what it takes to get the best result as fast as possible

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

From what I have seen the nutrition arguments are nonsense. I read somewhere only eggs had vitamin e12 however a quick google search disproved that. I'm pretty certain it is a scientific fact you can get all the nutrition needed from a vegan diet. Also I makes me laugh when people who are really unhealthy say that.

The economy would collapse if everyone became vegan tomorrow. However if it happened over a gradual period it would be OK I imagine. One morality issue though is about all the wildlife that could potentially get killed through groin all the food needed if no one ate meat.

 

I think you mean B12. 

Most vegans get it from capsules. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I think you mean B12. 

Most vegans get it from capsules. 

Probably meant that yeah. From what I read it is in some plants and soya. Are there any health issues with taking supplements though?

[Inverted]

I think the ethical and environmental arguments for veganism are very strong, and I don't really have any good reason for not being one, but there are two main problems with the more vocal elements of veganism

1 - People react best to encouragement, and so to me any campaign based on guilt and emotional blackmail is most likely going to be harmful to progress.

2 - The problem is as much structural as as an issue of individual choice. Our society is not equipped to allow everyone to live a vegan lifestyle - in terms of education, affordability, and in terms of major producers cutting-out animal products from their chains of production.

The movement towards "veganising" society should focus on creating an environment in which it is convenient to be a vegan, as opposed to placing the moral burden on people to make a huge, difficult adjustment despite having busy, stressful lives and a lack of information.

 

[Eco]

2 hours ago, Azeem said:

Veganism for those vegans is not a principle i.e internally motivates you to do the things that seem good and right

But rather a rule or a doctrine to do the thing that has been deemed good or right. 

And they base that on reasons @Cicerosaid, morality etc 

Its like gun culture, i don't like owning a gun but that's not just a personal choice i will protest ammunition being mainstream in the society if after every other day there is a shooting incident. 

 

Oh I understand. But when has it ever worked to be an extremist to get those on your side? 

Is ISIS's extremist view helping others come to Islam? No. 

Are some church's extremist views on abortion helping others come to Christianity? No.

I can't think of one organization that has benefited from being extremist.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Eco said:

Oh I understand. But when has it ever worked to be an extremist to get those on your side? 

Is ISIS's extremist view helping others come to Islam? No. 

Are some church's extremist views on abortion helping others come to Christianity? No.

I can't think of one organization that has benefited from being extremist.  

Maybe not and that is an argument against it. I have heard some vegans that is how successful social movements happen.

[Cicero]

Just now, Gunnersauraus said:

Maybe not and that is an argument against it. I have heard some vegans that is how successful social movements happen.

A lot of people turn to veganism due to health purposes. I for one adore those small YouTube channels that inform their viewers the benefits of an all vegan diet. 

I echo what @Eco said. Peacefully educating is the way forward for Veganism to truly take shape. I for one understand the main benefits of it now and at times I consume no meat for my own health purposes. 

[Eco]

If they want people to become vegans, they should make the school curriculum make 'The Jungle' my Upton Sinclair as part of their mandatory reading. I had to read it and it's one of the things that turned my stomach in regards to red meat. 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

A lot of people turn to veganism due to health purposes. I for one adore those small YouTube channels that inform their viewers the benefits of an all vegan diet. 

I echo what @Eco said. Peacefully educating is the way forward for Veganism to truly take shape. I for one understand the main benefits of it now and at times I consume no meat for my own health purposes. 

I class myself as a vegan sympathiser. I agree with principles however I am not a vegan. Largely due to working with food. It would be hard for me to be one when I have to work with meat and taste it

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Eco said:

If they want people to become vegans, they should make the school curriculum make 'The Jungle' my Upton Sinclair as part of their mandatory reading. I had to read it and it's one of the things that turned my stomach in regards to red meat. 

 

Someone I worked with became a vegetarian after seeing pigs in a abattoir. They squeal because they know they will be killed and have to be forced to go in 

[Eco]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I class myself as a vegan sympathiser. I agree with principles however I am not a vegan. Largely due to working with food. It would be hard for me to be one when I have to work with meat and taste it

Yeah - that would almost be impossible for you. 

Listen, veganism is both difficult, and expensive. Nowadays it's so cheap to eat fast food and frozen meals, that it becomes expensive to go out of your way to find meals that have no meat in them. 

My wife will eat a steak and fish, but other than that, she loves the vegetarian diet so it's easier for me to do so. 

[Eco]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Someone I worked with became a vegetarian after seeing pigs in a abattoir. They squeal because they know they will be killed and have to be forced to go in 

Yeah - it's disgusting. Also, in my past job I had to do some process control engineering at a chick farm here in Georgia, and it made me sick each and every day.