The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Spike]

10 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I have empathy for both sides, which is why I think this whole conflict is fucked from the start.

Antisemitism meant the Jewish people couldn't live in peace. They'd get killed by Stalin and Hitler in Europe, then they'd move to the newly created Israel and get killed and chased out in MENA. They needed their own country. Where Zionism fails for me is that they wanted a very specific spot which was always going to be a disaster. Hell in most places it would have created problems but especially in a place where religion is taken to the extreme overlooked by the big daddy (the Saudis), it was a big risk to take, and while it worked for them, it came at the expense of someone else.

On the other hand, I also have empathy for the Palestinians. You can't just take somebodies land just because you used to live there, or does the law really think it'd be OK for me to kick the people living in my old home just because I used to pay for it?

As a result, this is a never ending loop, and I don't agree with radical decisions from either side, but I do have sympathy with both to some extent.

Stalin wasn't exactly Mr. Friend-to-the-Jewish-people, but to have him in the same sentence as Hitler is a conflation that shouldn't be made. His purges affected a great many people Jewish included but they weren't motivated by sheer Antisemitism like Hitler.

[Goku de la Boca]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Israel's got Arabs living there in peace though. They've even got Arab politicians. I think Israel's government does a lot that is worthy of condemnation - especially the far-right members that make up the current governing coalition. But to say the whole country wants every Palestinian dead I think flies in the face of reality.

Yes, I think it's very fair to say that Israel's government has not acted in the interests of peace or stability for Israel and the Middle East. By the same token, it's fair to say that Hamas and the PA have done the exact same thing - they've acted to continually escalate the conflict.

Hamas isn't a legitimate "resistance" for Gaza or Palestine. It's a group of violent radicals that want to wage war on Jews. Not just Israelis - it's in their charter, all Jews around the world. They've taken active steps to put Palestinians in harms way for their own goals. There is no peace, for Israelis or Palestinians, with them still around.

I don't think any of us are experts, and certainly none of us are the word of god (lol, what a term for a conflict raging in the "holy lands") - but I certainly think you are right that his type of comment is exactly what Hamas want to hear come from the mouths of westerners. They did not commit the attack on October 7th without expecting Israel to come in with a heavy handed approach.

It will never happen because of the makeup of the UN Security Council... but trusting Israelis and Palestinians to resolve this conflict with it ending in peace is a huge mistake the world is making. Nothing Israel's government has done since 1995 has been in the interest of a lasting and meaningful peace. Nothing Hamas or the PA have done have been in the interest of making a lasting and meaningful peace.

Neither Israeli or Palestinian leadership have demonstrated they are capable of handling the crisis, nor have they demonstrated capability in improving the situation over the past few decades. Neither of them can even be trusted to follow international law.

I don't know why the rest of the world has any faith in either of the two parties.

Oh 100%, anyone who understands a bit about psychological warfare can see that the attacks on October 7th were made with that in mind. Hell, I don't have a clue about any type of warfare but to me it's clear that Hamas want the international community to pressure people in power to condemn Israel and their actions on Gaza. Thankfully the big powers are not budging, they aren't stupid enough to be manipulated into that. Where they fuck up is when they go woke and try to take down Palestine flags at events at whatnot. I understand trying to avoid division but what they do only makes things worse I think. The "politically correct" agenda pisses me off to be honest.

Hamas are safe from their homes in Qatar knowing Israel can't touch them there, while sacrificing all their compatriots back at their original homes in Gaza.

[Goku de la Boca]

This is a great interview and I find it amazing that the son of the founder was able to go against his fathers decisions. Clearly the man has a different heart compared to what the leaders really want.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

10 hours ago, 6666 said:

There is something genuinely wrong with you.

I just don't believe Hamas propaganda and what they feed gullible Americans who are addicted to moral grandstanding.

Israel is not without fault but when the people who dare call themselves neighbours are indoctrinated into a jihad death cult where death and martyrdom is the intention and killing Jews is the cause, I fail to see how defensive action is anyway equated to segregationist theory.

it seems like you and a few others seem oblivious to the plight of Palastinians within Palastine that oppose Hamas and are tortured or murdered because of it.  66% of Palastinians are deep into the death cult and those staying in central Gaza most likely are there intentionally.

as for rights, Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish and Christian Israelis, they have homes, cars the same number plates etc.   Jews that own titles to land in Hebron are denied rights within the Palastinians authority.

apparently when the overt goal of one group is the extermination of another, they are treated like heroes, how far has America fallen

[Stan]

42 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

66% of Palastinians are deep into the death cult

Source?

[Goku de la Boca]

On 09/10/2023 at 22:52, Beelzebub said:

A reminder that Palestine was not the first choice place to create Israel. Earlier it was Texas then East Africa Palestine was like the fifth choice. Europe just needed a place to 'dump' the Jews given its own bloody history with them.

If I'm not mistaken, Balfour the guy after whose name is the declaration to allow Jews to settle in Palestine said or wrote something in the footnote that creation of Israel will solve a dilemma of Europe. Sadly it came at the cost of Palestinians. 

I am just now reading this and I agree entirely that zionism had its own ridiculous rules. Like I said earlier, how the fuck is it OK if I stop paying rent, move into a new home and then tell the next person to move in "I used to pay for this place, get out"?

I do agree that zionism needed to be a thing and Israel needed to exist, but I think they shouldn't have gone for "the promised land" as that was a place with a lot of dangerous and powerful allies in a very religious region of the world. Argentina could have been an option in the south, just a shame that most of the nazis went to hide there after the war.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Source?

https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

one left one right and groundnews places them as factually accurate.  The numbers have gone up.  The video I posted from the associated press also covered it.   The people opposing Hamas autocracy and jihad is getting less and rapidly.

the modern western sentiment towards oppressive regimes is why they escalate the vigilance.  in 2001-2010 any act of terrorism or jihad was met with western force, little to know quarter given.  Weak man syndrome has weakened the west so the rise in autocrats and militant groups is up as they will be protected by some American who thinks Africa is a country and some cucumber sarmie tea drinking Brit clinging to some sort of moral grandstanding.

the Houthis are terrible, they do terrible things to Yemenis yet when they are captured, tried and convicted then executed people cry.   

 

[Beelzebub]

Israel is now moving from political Zionism to Messianic Zionism. 

If people were following news from Israel prior to all this they may know huge protests were going on against Nethanyahu.

Nethanyahu is leading a coalition govt of very right wing Kahanist-Messianic groups of Israel. What is Kahanist ? Watch video below

One of the primary goals of Kahanism is to bring about the coming of the Jewish Messiah. Early Zionist leaders were mostly secular they faced opposition from Orthodox Jewish circles who opposed creation of Israel bcz they believed a Jewish state cannot be established until the Messiah comes. 

Watch from 17:50

Early Zionist leaders pleaded with them that we can't wait forever let's have a Jewish state first and then you can work for coming of the Messiah. Some Orthodox groups agreed but others oppose to this day as in the video above. 

But as one can sense it was just a ruse to get them on their side as Israel was run by secular leaning, political Zionist groups who kept Kahanist leaning groups at bay. But that started to change in 90s with the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin who was viewed to be giving Palestinians too much concessions.

Since 2000s Nethanyahu has been gaining gradual power. Now the Kahanist-Messianic groups believe the time of Messiah is near and they can't waste time anymore. Some things need to be sorted like a final solution to Palestinian issue and rebuilding of the Jewish Temple.

Nethanyahu in 1991

The end goal of Messianic Zionism is not just solution to Palestine but returning all those places where Jews have ever lived from near to distant past. Weekly publication of Kahanist groups called for annexing south of Lebanon in recent edition.

The red heifer whose sacrifice is needed inorder to mix its ashes with water for purification before building of the Jewish Temple, as a prerequisite for coming of Messiah, were bread and sent from Texas to Israel in Sept 2022. Out of the total five only one needs to be in perfect shape for the ceremony planned in April 2024. 

The Evangelicals in US also support this because they also believe the temple needs to be rebuilt in order for Jesus to return that's why they are supporting the Kahanists in all this. What happens to Jews after that in their view  is another story. 

imo what happens in the region next will be determined by which elements prevail in the policy making circles of US and Israel. Those who view it religious ideologically vs those who view it secular strategically.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Lmao the red cow from South Park is real?

Religious people are fucking mental.

[OrangeKhrush]

Who said conspiracy theories can't be fun. 

[6666]

18 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think Hamas propaganda is just as much of a problem as Israeli propaganda. They're both trying to remove all nuance from any discussion about the conflict and push people onto one side over the other.

The internet is full of it, lots of absolute language to get all of us to firmly take a side. When really, I think most people want this conflict to stop popping up constantly and for them to just start living like normal neighbors. Hating each other silently, without bombing anybody.

Well that's complete and utter nonsense and a very American, centre-left "we don't wanna talk about it so let's just say they're as bad as each other and move on" position. Maybe you've been watching too much MSNBC.

To apply your thoughts on this conflict to one you're more invested in, it'd be like me suggesting the criticism and resistance against the Iranian government is the same as whatever the Iranian government has to say about those that criticise them. Difference being there's a lot more civilian deaths associated with Israel. That's not "Hamas propaganda". That's reality. But go ahead and undermine your own opinions on Iran's violent, ruthless regime by making excuses and trying to soften people's view on Israel.

[Redcanuck]

7 hours ago, Stan said:

Source?

Latest studies show that 77% of Gaza support Hamas and the destruction if Israel.

[6666]

7 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I just don't believe Hamas propaganda and what they feed gullible Americans who are addicted to moral grandstanding.

Israel is not without fault but when the people who dare call themselves neighbours are indoctrinated into a jihad death cult where death and martyrdom is the intention and killing Jews is the cause, I fail to see how defensive action is anyway equated to segregationist theory.

it seems like you and a few others seem oblivious to the plight of Palastinians within Palastine that oppose Hamas and are tortured or murdered because of it.  66% of Palastinians are deep into the death cult and those staying in central Gaza most likely are there intentionally.

as for rights, Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish and Christian Israelis, they have homes, cars the same number plates etc.   Jews that own titles to land in Hebron are denied rights within the Palastinians authority.

apparently when the overt goal of one group is the extermination of another, they are treated like heroes, how far has America fallen

Sure. It's just them wanting to kill Jews even though Jews, Muslims, and Christians all lived within the region before Israel. It can't be because of Israel's violent treatment of Palestinians.

This idea that reality should be ignored and Israel's stories need to be bough into is just embarrassing and it isn't something that anyone buys into unless they're an insanely naive person. Or something that knows Nazi Israel are a bunch of psychos but are saying what they need to say to cover for Israel.

[6666]

4 minutes ago, Redcanuck said:

Latest studies show that 77% of Gaza support Hamas and the destruction if Israel.

After decades and decades of the kidnapping and murder of Palestinians, can you blame them? Israel has been a terrorist state since its inception. From killing British soldiers to get control of the country from the colonialists to continuing to kill Palestinians to steal more land. Israel has always been about killing people.

And while you're shocked at "the guys that Israel keeps under their foot seem to be mad at Israel", it's strange that an actual genocide with people being mercilessly killed is okay.

As I said at the start of this, it's like slave rebellions. The anger of the oppressed is the fault of the oppressor. It's just a shame that the oppressor has the support of all the dirty nations that don't care about victims as long as they have a foothold in the middle east.

[Redcanuck]

Starting to hear more and more reports about how terrible Hamas has treated the hostages. .  Doctors treating the hostages are saying they experienced severe psychological abuse at the hands of Hamas.

"Those held captive were subject to starvation, to beating, to sexual abuse. They were being held in inhumane sanitary conditions. Extremely severe psychological abuse was inflicted on them, including separation from family members, separation of siblings, separation of children from their mothers. They were held in solitary confinement and spent long days in total darkness until they developed severe hallucinations," Eitan claimed. "Children were forced to watch brutal videos. They were under constant threats by weapons and threats to harm them even after they were released. They refer to the forced use of psychiatric drugs and other substances."

One of the reasons the pause talks ended was because Israel claim Hamas are still holding 18 female captives taking from the music festival.  Hamas refuse to acknowledge they still have them and Israeli believe that is because they have been sexual abused and Hamas don't want their voices heard.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

27 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Well that's complete and utter nonsense and a very American, centre-left "we don't wanna talk about it so let's just say they're as bad as each other and move on" position. Maybe you've been watching too much MSNBC.

To apply your thoughts on this conflict to one you're more invested in, it'd be like me suggesting the criticism and resistance against the Iranian government is the same as whatever the Iranian government has to say about those that criticise them. Difference being there's a lot more civilian deaths associated with Israel. That's not "Hamas propaganda". That's reality. But go ahead and undermine your own opinions on Iran's violent, ruthless regime by making excuses and trying to soften people's view on Israel.

I don’t watch any TV news. Reading the news is better for you. It’s got the same biases but they’re easier to pick out. TV news is just naked propaganda designed to be most effective because the psychology of TV viewers has been well studied & effective propaganda techniques have existed for centuries. I can also read relatively quickly so I can probably read from 4 sources and get 4 different perspectives, which is sort of useful.

MSNBC is the same as Sky by the way. Knowledge is power.

I’m not undermining anything about Iran. Iran funds Hamas. They don’t give a fuck about Palestinians as being anything other than a useful pawn in their war against Israel and the US. Honestly, supporting Hamas is just tacit support of the Islamic Republic’s reign of terror. So you’ll find I’m being consistent in my views.

I think as a result, I’ve got a better understanding about what Hamas is really all about than most. But they knew the response they would elicit from Israel. They were counting on it.

Meanwhile I have criticised the way Israel’s fought this war. They’re fighting like cowards in the least effective way to take out a terror group that has put civilians in the firing line.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, 6666 said:

After decades and decades of the kidnapping and murder of Palestinians, can you blame them?

Considering Hamas has basically done nothing for Gaza other than get loads of people killed, yes.

Hamas is their government and also has said they’re not responsible for protecting civilians. How do you justify this “slave revolt” when the side you seem to be totally fine with doesn’t seem to give nearly as much of a fuck about dead Gazans as you do?

[Redcanuck]

4 minutes ago, 6666 said:

After decades and decades of the kidnapping and murder of Palestinians, can you blame them? Israel has been a terrorist state since its inception. From killing British soldiers to get control of the country from the colonialists to continuing to kill Palestinians to steal more land. Israel has always been about killing people.

And while you're shocked at "the guys that Israel keeps under their foot seem to be mad at Israel", it's strange that an actual genocide with people being mercilessly killed is okay.

As I said at the start of this, it's like slave rebellions. The anger of the oppressed is the fault of the oppressor. It's just a shame that the oppressor has the support of all the dirty nations that don't care about victims as long as they have a foothold in the middle east.

Anything Israel has done is in self defense.  There is a very simple truth here that you refuse to see.  If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace, if Israel lays down its arms they will be killed.  Since 1948 Israel has offered a two state solution many times, I admit that's probably no longer the case,  but its always been the Arab world's refuse to accept a Jewish state that has kept the Arabs in the area without their own state.

[6666]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Considering Hamas has basically done nothing for Gaza other than get loads of people killed, yes.

Hamas is their government and also has said they’re not responsible for protecting civilians. How do you justify this “slave revolt” when the side you seem to be totally fine with doesn’t seem to give nearly as much of a fuck about dead Gazans as you do?

I have zero issue with criticising Hamas as a government governing Palestinians but as a resistance force against Nazi Israel, they're pretty much all there is. It'd be great if there was an army more substantial and "more ethical" but they're either all been allied out of the conflict or they're scared of the consequences to actually step in.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Redcanuck said:

Anything Israel has done is in self defense.  There is a very simple truth here that you refuse to see.  If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be peace, if Israel lays down its arms they will be killed.  Since 1948 Israel has offered a two state solution many times, I admit that's probably no longer the case,  but its always been the Arab world's refuse to accept a Jewish state that has kept the Arabs in the area without their own state.

Also for all the talk of how casualties are so disproportionate… it should be mentioned, it’s not for Hamas not trying to kill as many Israelis as they can.

They’ve literally been launching missiles deliberately targeting civilian targets. Are we supposed to be annoyed with Israel for having defense systems in place for protecting innocent lives simply because Hamas has no regard for their own civilians?

[6666]

1 minute ago, Redcanuck said:

Anything Israel has done is in self defense. 

Talk about an insane level of naive delusion. Israel has never been interested in peace. Reality supports that. Israel makes Palestinians' lives hell day to day.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, 6666 said:

I have zero issue with criticising Hamas as a government governing Palestinians but as a resistance force against Nazi Israel, they're pretty much all there is. It'd be great if there was an army more substantial and "more ethical" but they're either all been allied out of the conflict or they're scared of the consequences to actually step in.

Well that’s the issue isn’t it. The Palestinians don’t have any allies that are less extreme because of what they’ve done to other Arab nations they’ve been refugees in. So they just have Qatar and Iran feeding an already radicalised society more extremism.

If your only means of resistance is to guarantee the slaughter of your people - it’s not a good resistance though.

And they’ve let radicalism take root in Israeli politics with their decades of escalation. So it’s created a vicious cycle.

It’s why Israel and Palestine should be a matter resolved by world powers. We cannot trust 2 sides of extremists to do anything other than escalate. The UN needs to force a resolution to this.

It’s absurd the number of Jews and Arabs in the West that have been murdered in the aftermath of this war breaking out. People far far away from the battlegrounds thinking they need to fight it out where they live because they’ve been blinded by paranoia and propaganda from these 2 extremist sides.

[Redcanuck]

4 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Talk about an insane level of naive delusion. Israel has never been interested in peace. Reality supports that. Israel makes Palestinians' lives hell day to day.

History shows Israel has offered peace time and time again, only for the Arabs to turn it down. Israel takes measures against the local Arab population, because  they are always under threat of being killed by them.

[OrangeKhrush]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don’t watch any TV news. Reading the news is better for you. It’s got the same biases but they’re easier to pick out. TV news is just naked propaganda designed to be most effective because the psychology of TV viewers has been well studied & effective propaganda techniques have existed for centuries. I can also read relatively quickly so I can probably read from 4 sources and get 4 different perspectives, which is sort of useful.

MSNBC is the same as Sky by the way. Knowledge is power.

I’m not undermining anything about Iran. Iran funds Hamas. They don’t give a fuck about Palestinians as being anything other than a useful pawn in their war against Israel and the US. Honestly, supporting Hamas is just tacit support of the Islamic Republic’s reign of terror. So you’ll find I’m being consistent in my views.

I think as a result, I’ve got a better understanding about what Hamas is really all about than most. But they knew the response they would elicit from Israel. They were counting on it.

Meanwhile I have criticised the way Israel’s fought this war. They’re fighting like cowards in the least effective way to take out a terror group that has put civilians in the firing line.

groundnews is a pretty good tool, I have the year subscription.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

groundnews is a pretty good tool, I have the year subscription.

I usually just use AP to find new news, then google around for different sources to see what the more biased takes are