The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Michael]

Having met both Israelis and Palestinians(in various European countries), I think that I can confidently say that there is a significant hardcore element, among both sides, that absolutely hate and despise the other. With that ingrained hate, it is hard to see if there will ever be a relatively peaceful solution to this ongoing conflict. 

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Mel81x said:

So, what you're saying is, it's okay for innocent civilians to be bombarded and killed because they don't have a choice in how their country is being run and that its okay for another country to simply destroy their homes and kill them because one radical group decided to start a war. Alright I'll buy that. 

Sounds like he was (sadly) apportioning blame to the civilians too just because they don't (read: can't) stand up to the oppressors.

5 minutes ago, Michael said:

Having met both Israelis and Palestinians(in various European countries), I think that I can confidently say that there is a significant hardcore element, among both sides, that absolutely hate and despise the other. With that ingrained hate, it is hard to see if there will ever be a relatively peaceful solution to this ongoing conflict. 

Sadly can't see this ending peacefully, either. There are so many big players involved.

[6666]

4 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel will lay seige to Gaza like the Romans did to the maccabis. No food, water or electricity, things will get desperate soon.  Eventually the Palastinians will have to out all HAMAS operatives for complete destruction of the terror group.   Palastinians need to be liberated from HAMAS first.

 

4 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel has tried diplomacy, but you can't negotiate with terrorists.  The 7 October attacks may be the final push for Palastinians to rebel against their repressive regimes, stand up to the extremists or be complicit in their misdeeds.

do Israel have the right to institute an offensive, yes they do, they were attacked and some of the things done go well beyond the pale of liberation, terror organisations don't liberate, they just murder.  As terror groups thry operate in civilian areas which means loss of life is inevitable until Palastinians help Israel massacre the fundamentalists.

You say all of this when it comes to Israel having the right to slaughter but the same can be said the other way round. And it can be said much more justifiably as Israel has slaughtered and terrorised Palestinians extremely regularly.

By your own logic, Palestinians have the right to wipe out Israel as their citizens continue to vote for blood thirsty politicians that results in Palestinians being oppressed.

But you of course fail to understand that part because you think Palestinians being killed by Israel is normal so there shouldn't be a reaction from anyone. That's where the hypocrisy is when anyone says Israel now has the right to attack Palestine.

Edited October 10, 2023 by 6666

[Beelzebub]

A reminder that there are allegations that Hamas was created by Israel to discredit the other Palestinian faction PLO. 

[Michael]

1 minute ago, Beelzebub said:

A reminder that there are allegations that Hamas was created by Israel to discredit the other Palestinian faction PLO. 

"Allegations", being the key word here.

[Beelzebub]

3 minutes ago, Michael said:

"Allegations", being the key word here.

Credible allegations. Given many country's record of helping and funding certain groups which then backfired i.e Taliban it has been well covered of Israel's early help to Hamas.

[Dr. Gonzo]

33 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

A reminder that there are allegations that Hamas was created by Israel to discredit the other Palestinian faction PLO. 

There's an allegation that Israel is behind every bad thing that has happened to Jewish people in the Middle East since the creation of Israel. I think these allegations are more from Arabs trying to shake the shitty reputations that groups like Hamas give them than anything credible behind them.

[Beelzebub]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There's an allegation that Israel is behind every bad thing that has happened to Jewish people in the Middle East since the creation of Israel. I think these allegations are more from Arabs trying to shake the shitty reputations that groups like Hamas give them than anything credible behind them.

Others maybe but Hamas Israel connection was started by an ex Israeli general. 

[Beelzebub]

Ironically Israel itself is very much divided between the secular nationalist and ultra orthdox Jewish groups right now. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

Ironically Israel itself is very much divided between the secular nationalist and ultra orthdox Jewish groups right now. 

lol the idiots thought an Islamist group as a counterweight to the PLO would benefit them?

Yeah who could have thought fomenting religious extremist militants might come back to bite them in the arse... morons 

[6666]

All this "Hamas are terrorists" talk doesn't really sway me when they're up against bigger terrorists in the Israeli Military. Don't care how they're "officially recognised". Focus should be on the bigger killers with all the power.

[Michael]

On 10/10/2023 at 20:53, Beelzebub said:

Ironically Israel itself is very much divided between the secular nationalist and ultra orthdox Jewish groups right now. 

I typed Mehdi Hasan on youtube and found the following:

How seriously can this fanatic be taken?

Edited November 9, 2023 by Michael

[OrangeKhrush]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

A reminder that collective punishment is a war crime.

It's incredibly difficult to stand up to a regime like Hamas. People have tried, they end up killed and their family members often get killed too. The people of Gaza are ruled by a terror group that does not give a fuck about them, they're basically held hostage by Hamas. The Palestinians of the West Bank don't have it great, but their situation is infinitely better than the people of Gaza under Hamas. It is not exactly easy to form meaningful resistance that leads to change against a regime like Hamas that has a total grip on power (and ability to exert meaningful violence) in Gaza. The world isn't a comic book, unfortunately... some things are just much easier said than done in the face of incredible oppression.

That it has come to this point I think reflects a massive policy failure of Israel with regards to how they've handled Gaza. Striking Hamas like it is a conventional military has not worked - Hamas uses schools and hospitals as strategic areas to hide military targets. Israel hasn't really cared if it's airstrikes cause collateral damage and have kind of taken the same position you have: "if you don't like getting killed, stand up against these people who'll kill you and your family if you stand up against them" - it's only led to an unbreakable cycle of violence. Now it seems inevitable they are going to send boots on the ground and try to eradicate Hamas. But modern urban warfare is chaotic and brutal - it is going to be a rough time for everyone involved.

Getting rid of Hamas is just the first step though. There needs to be serious work to de-radicalise the population of Gaza that was successfully radicalised from a lifetime of Hamas propaganda consumed, to rebuild Gaza. Otherwise I think this is just going to keep the cycle going, just kicking the can a bit further down the road to worry about at a future date. And then it's not truly a step for a lasting meaningful peace.

French journalists have confirmed reports that Hamas decapitated babies in their attack. Thank god I didn't see any footage of that, because what I did see was bad enough.

The Geneva conventions don't apply to terror groups, it therefore allows targeting of areas where militants occupy.  

the idea of who should suffer, Israelis because they can't strike at cowards because they meat shield or Palastinians, the answer is almost always subjective.

if Palastinians want peace they should be helping Israel eradicate Hamas to the last man, this may still result in death but it will help Israel target Hamas and reduce collateral.   this solution seems the better and obvious outcome even if Palastinians die to Hamas, by sheer numbers they will overwhelm Hamas.

the big issue here is that Palastinians don't want to coexist with Israel and as long as that sentiment remains, so will conflict.

Africa and the middle East suffer from the same existential crisis of terror groups taking power and subjugation people to suffering two regions prone to extremism driven by western sentiment on victimhood.

in this conflict there is one commonality between Palastine and Israel and that is Hamas, Hezbollah as long as they exist, Palastinians are not free.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There's an allegation that Israel is behind every bad thing that has happened to Jewish people in the Middle East since the creation of Israel. I think these allegations are more from Arabs trying to shake the shitty reputations that groups like Hamas give them than anything credible behind them.

I am pretty sure Hamas is the PLO militant wing

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, 6666 said:

 

You say all of this when it comes to Israel having the right to slaughter but the same can be said the other way round. And it can be said much more justifiably as Israel has slaughtered and terrorised Palestinians extremely regularly.

By your own logic, Palestinians have the right to wipe out Israel as their citizens continue to vote for blood thirsty politicians that results in Palestinians being oppressed.

But you of course fail to understand that part because you think Palestinians being killed by Israel is normal so there shouldn't be a reaction from anyone. That's where the hypocrisy is when anyone says Israel now has the right to attack Palestine.

that is finecsnd well but it fails to explain why there are no Palastinians groups that are pushing sustainable peace with Israel.   Israel has done some highly questionable things, but the constant attacks on Israel help legitimise it as actions necessary to protect themselves from acts of terrorism

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I am pretty sure Hamas is the PLO militant wing

You might want to read the wikipedia pages of some of these things before wading in lol.

22 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Geneva conventions don't apply to terror groups, it therefore allows targeting of areas where militants occupy.  

the idea of who should suffer, Israelis because they can't strike at cowards because they meat shield or Palastinians, the answer is almost always subjective.

if Palastinians want peace they should be helping Israel eradicate Hamas to the last man, this may still result in death but it will help Israel target Hamas and reduce collateral.   this solution seems the better and obvious outcome even if Palastinians die to Hamas, by sheer numbers they will overwhelm Hamas.

the big issue here is that Palastinians don't want to coexist with Israel and as long as that sentiment remains, so will conflict.

Africa and the middle East suffer from the same existential crisis of terror groups taking power and subjugation people to suffering two regions prone to extremism driven by western sentiment on victimhood.

in this conflict there is one commonality between Palastine and Israel and that is Hamas, Hezbollah as long as they exist, Palastinians are not free.

 

1.) Regardless of whether Geneva Conventions apply (they would do though, because while being a terror group Hamas is also recognised as Gaza's government - and most UN countries don't have them designated as a terror group)... collective punishment is a war crime.

2.) Second sentence makes no sense lol. Israel's never really given a shit about striking at Hamas or Hezbollah despite them using innocents as human shields. Palestinian suffering hasn't really been dependent on anything Hamas or Hezbollah have done, there's been nothing to curb the illegal settlements from Israel's government. Hamas and Hezbollah have certainly compounded Palestinian suffering - but it's a bit oblivious to assume that.

3.) I agree with that, at least with the Palestinians in Gaza - if they want to survive and have hope for even just a slightly better future, they should be doing whatever they can to help the IDF root Hamas out of Gaza ASAP.

4.) Palestinians aren't a monolith. Some Palestinians very clearly don't mind coexisting with Israel, Arab-Israelis exist. There's a lot of Palestinians who support a two state solution as well. You can make the same claims you've made about Palestinians about Israelis, considering there are a lot of Israelis who think all Palestnians should be treated as terrorists and many who think there should be no land for Palestinians as well. But in the same way, Israelis aren't a monolith.

5.) Look at the history of both regions and tell me if there's a common factor in why these parts of the world are so absolutely fucked up. I'm sure you can find one.

6.) Same as the second sentence really - Hamas and Hezbollah weren't around during the Nakba. The commonality between Israel and Palestine is both claim to have a legitimate claim to the land. Hamas and Hezbollah have done nothing for the peace process. But let's not pretend that Israel's been seriously invested in peace since Rabin's assassination. And he was assassinated by extremist Israelis who did not want to make peace.

[Tommy]

OrangeKrush if he has to weigh in on a topic Russell Brand hasn't made a video about yet. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

44 minutes ago, Michael said:

I typed Mehdi Hasan on youtube and found the following:

How seriously can this fanatic be taken?

Tbf to him, he's said he believed a lot of stupid things in his 20s and says he no longer believes in these bigoted beliefs. He says a lot of it was reactionary to the things he would hear said about Muslim people in his 20s and gives a few other excuses for that kind of shit. Could just be pandering to the twitter crowd now that he's on bigger media outlets, though. It's hard to say with religious nutjobs like that - I want to believe them when they say they've outgrown their caveman views on the world... but it's also hard to trust someone who's said things like that publicly.

He's pretty well respected in the Muslim society in the west though, so him disavowing those previous statements and coming forward nowadays in support of gay marriage is probably a good thing in the long run: https://www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2013/05/muslim-i-struggle-idea-homosexuality-i-oppose-homophobia

[Michael]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf to him, he's said he believed a lot of stupid things in his 20s and says he no longer believes in these bigoted beliefs. He says a lot of it was reactionary to the things he would hear said about Muslim people in his 20s and gives a few other excuses for that kind of shit. Could just be pandering to the twitter crowd now that he's on bigger media outlets, though. It's hard to say with religious nutjobs like that - I want to believe them when they say they've outgrown their caveman views on the world... but it's also hard to trust someone who's said things like that publicly.

He's pretty well respected in the Muslim society in the west though, so him disavowing those previous statements and coming forward nowadays in support of gay marriage is probably a good thing in the long run: https://www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2013/05/muslim-i-struggle-idea-homosexuality-i-oppose-homophobia

Yes, I find it convenient that similar ex-fanatics, suddenly tow the line, once they get a chance at having a well paid job and once they establish a successful career. I suspect that if he is respected among mainstream muslims, as you suggest, then it's probably because he is now saying more tasteful things. His arguments are today more palatable for moderate muslims to accept.

But obviously what he says today, is not necessarily an indication of his true inner beliefs. I mean if you are capable of raging and ranting in public in the manner in which he used to do, then you have to be pretty psychologically messed up. He can say what he says and try to explain why he was the way he was, in order to maintain his current image, but there will always be question marks about people like him. 

[Stan]

10 hours ago, 6666 said:

All this "Hamas are terrorists" talk doesn't really sway me when they're up against bigger terrorists in the Israeli Military. Don't care how they're "officially recognised". Focus should be on the bigger killers with all the power.

What about focusing on an organisation that kills babies, decapitates children and rapes women?

Why can't the focus be on both?

[Tommy]

"Decapitated babies" is probably the most terrible thing I have ever read in my entire life. 

[Stan]

This sums it up pretty easily for me

 

[OrangeKhrush]

here was me thinking Americans are the biggest degenerates, Australians just went yeh nah, hold my Victorian bitter.

nothing says we are the good guys quite like mutilating babies, I can understand why liberals are celebrating it.

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

here was me thinking Americans are the biggest degenerates, Australians just went yeh nah, hold my Victorian bitter.

 

Australia are the biggest degenerates for reporting on something horrific that Hamas did?

What?

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

What about focusing on an organisation that kills babies, decapitates children and rapes women?

Why can't the focus be on both?

Even if you take away the fact that whenever Hamas acts out against Israel it leads to mass death in Gaza - there’s still a very strong argument that Gazans are still Hamas’s biggest victims.

The idea that Hamas are freedom fighters would have more weight if they didn’t rule Gaza like an oppressive totalitarian dictatorship.

They’re not freedom fighters, the people they rule over don’t have any freedom.