West Ham 0-5 Man City - Saturday 10th August, 2019

[LFCMadLad]

44 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Still seeing people have made their mind up about VAR and won't see it any other way. It's the first weekend it's ever been used in the Premier League and for me it wasn't even that bad.

I swear people just want something to complain about sometimes. One minute inept referees and offside goals are ruining football, next minute correct decisions are ruining football just because it takes a bit longer to get there.

And if Jesus' goal had stood we'd have people falling over each other crying about how the referees all favour City and how they'll win the league because dodgy decisions all go their way and probably how their owners have bribed officials.

Give it a chance. I watched our game and then the Spurs game and VAR didn't ruin any of those. The only thing that ruined the City game was how embarrassingly inept West Ham were.

It's a matter of opinion! You dont mind it, some people dont like it. Pep Guardiola is the latest to speak about it stating 'it's a real passion killer'.

I watched the City highlights again this morning and it was an absolute joke, correct decisions or not. 

Players dont generally like VAR, neither do the managers and fans are pretty split. It's just an opinion, sort of a general feeling. Personally I'd rather a couple of dubious decisions in a game be made than it being stopped and re-started every fucking 5 minutes. I dont know why this so hard for you to understand? 

I was actually in favour of VAR being introduced when it was first discussed but as usual in this country, it's been taken way too far. I mean, they are now checking goals that aren't even controversial just in case there was something that happened in the build up. What the fuck is all that about?

Take City's penalty debacle yesterday as another example. They have now set a precedent because every penalty will now have to be checked and what.... are they going to make every penalty be re-taken if a player has a foot in the box or if a goalkeeper moves a split second too soon? Its horseshit and nobody can convince me that's good for the game. 

You don't mind VAR, some preferred football before it. It's as simple as that.

 

[LFCMadLad]

13 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 

And if Jesus' goal had stood we'd have people falling over each other crying about how the referees all favour City and how they'll win the league because dodgy decisions all go their way and probably how their owners have bribed officials.

Oh stop being a wet wipe. Jesus's goal was as close as you can get. I doubt anyone would have been crying had it stood at all. 

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, LFCMadLad said:

Oh stop being a wet wipe. Jesus's goal was as close as you can get. I doubt anyone would have been crying had it stood at all. 

Wet wipe?  I know I'm exaggerating and that it had no impact on the result but you know people are sad enough to go through the season and go "well City had three goals that would have been ruled out for offside if we had VAR and Liverpool had two goals wrongly disallowed which would have stood with VAR". You yourself were talking about a league table elsewhere in the forum that someone made an alternate table for if VAR was used last season where Liverpool would have won the league. Can't be arsed with it. Rather the decisions were made clinically and correctly so people can stop crying all the time about if this and we would have that.

The penalty thing is a different issue because the rules have changed there so as players and fans get used to it it will happen less often.

The technology will improve, as with all things, and the people using it will get more used to it as well. I just think it's ridiculous people wanting rid of VAR before the first set of 3pms have even kicked off on the first weekend.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

Wet wipe?  I know I'm exaggerating and that it had no impact on the result but you know people are sad enough to go through the season and go "well City had three goals that would have been ruled out for offside if we had VAR and Liverpool had two goals wrongly disallowed which would have stood with VAR". You yourself were talking about a league table elsewhere in the forum that someone made an alternate table for if VAR was used last season where Liverpool would have won the league. Can't be arsed with it. Rather the decisions were made clinically and correctly so people can stop crying all the time about if this and we would have that.

The penalty thing is a different issue because the rules have changed there so as players and fans get used to it it will happen less often.

The technology will improve, as with all things, and the people using it will get more used to it as well. I just think it's ridiculous people wanting rid of VAR before the first set of 3pms have even kicked off on the first weekend.

I'm not saying scrap it altogether, just that it has a time and a place. Not every single incident needs to be reviewed because imo it's taking the fun out of the game.

 

[Pep Talk]

Good start and yeah VAR certainly got off to some start lol

 

[Storts]

I couldn't celebrate Kane's winner yesterday properly because I was worried it was going to be offside and VAR to intervene. Certainly spoilt that moment for me. 

[Pep Talk]

Just now, Storts said:

I couldn't celebrate Kane's winner yesterday properly because I was worried it was going to be offside and VAR to intervene. Certainly spoilt that moment for me. 

As they said yesterday after every goal we will hear...”if it counts”

[Storts]

3 minutes ago, Pep Talk said:

As they said yesterday after every goal we will hear...”if it counts”

Absolutely, obviously jumped around started celebrating, but definitely cut it short thinking about VAR. As a match-going fan I think it is almost certainly going to water down the experience. I must add though, the couple of VAR checks yesterday were done very well though, quick and informative on the screens. It's just goals where it's going to have a real issue imo. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Give it a chance. I watched our game and then the Spurs game and VAR didn't ruin any of those. The only thing that ruined the City game was how embarrassingly inept West Ham were.

I was willing to give it a chance after the World Cup and how effective it was used there, but that’s one tournament of many. It has been garbage everywhere else. It’s been 3 years and barely anything has improved in “correct decisions” and the game has actually gone backwards.

What makes you think it’s going to improve with how corrupt the game is? 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Storts said:

I couldn't celebrate Kane's winner yesterday properly because I was worried it was going to be offside and VAR to intervene. Certainly spoilt that moment for me. 

You should have seen the last Copa America. I was the same. Football is a spectacle for most of us, not an obsession over the law. Especially when you still can’t get the decision right. We didn’t fall in love with the game for the wrong or right decisions.

[RandoEFC+]

I don't get the argument about celebrating. Just enjoy the moment and celebrate the goal. Especially if you're at the match, at some point you will have gone mad celebrating a goal before VAR and then had to chill out because you hadn't noticed the flag had gone up. It's on you if you choose not to celebrate goals anymore just because there's a slim chance of it getting ruled out by VAR.

There were 27 genuine goals in the Premier League this weekend and 2 others which got chalked off by a VAR check. That's less than 7% of the time where fans celebrated a goal and it was ruled out. It will be less than that on other weekends too.

11 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

I was willing to give it a chance after the World Cup and how effective it was used there, but that’s one tournament of many. It has been garbage everywhere else. It’s been 3 years and barely anything has improved in “correct decisions” and the game has actually gone backwards.

What makes you think it’s going to improve with how corrupt the game is? 

I'd love to know what all of that is based on. Given that they show the world on television now the replays that they're looking at so that everyone can see why they've made a decision, and that it is backed up by their technology, there's no way they can get away with incorrect or corrupt decisions.

I'm usually very cynical about football and how corrupt it undoubtedly is, but who stands to benefit from them not improving the use of VAR? In this case, I can't see who would be trying to put money in FIFA's pocket saying "please keep VAR controversial so people keep complaining about it"?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't get the argument about celebrating. Just enjoy the moment and celebrate the goal. Especially if you're at the match, at some point you will have gone mad celebrating a goal before VAR and then had to chill out because you hadn't noticed the flag had gone up. It's on you if you choose not to celebrate goals anymore just because there's a slim chance of it getting ruled out by VAR.

There were 27 genuine goals in the Premier League this weekend and 2 others which got chalked off by a VAR check. That's less than 7% of the time where fans celebrated a goal and it was ruled out. It will be less than that on other weekends too.

I'd love to know what all of that is based on. Given that they show the world on television now the replays that they're looking at so that everyone can see why they've made a decision, and that it is backed up by their technology, there's no way they can get away with incorrect or corrupt decisions.

I'm usually very cynical about football and how corrupt it undoubtedly is, but who stands to benefit from them not improving the use of VAR? In this case, I can't see who would be trying to put money in FIFA's pocket saying "please keep VAR controversial so people keep complaining about it"?

Well, they do get away with incorrect decisions. All the time actually. One recent example is Zulia’s 2nd goal against Sporting Cristal in the Copa Sudamericana. Blatantly offside, linesman doesn’t raise his flag. VAR checks it and it counts. I have a bunch of other examples too actually, so I’m afraid you’re very wrong on that bit.

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Grizzly21 said:

Well, they do get away with incorrect decisions. All the time actually. One recent example is Zulia’s 2nd goal against Sporting Cristal in the Copa Sudamericana. Blatantly offside, linesman doesn’t raise his flag. VAR checks it and it counts. I have a bunch of other examples too actually, so I’m afraid you’re very wrong on that bit.

Ah how did I forget that one .

For every example you have of VAR getting something wrong there will be loads of examples of VAR overturning a correct decision.

I don't want to come across as too Eurocentric but I will have to judge VAR on the football I actually watch. I won't pretend to know for sure but I'd guess that in South America they're probably under a bit less pressure to be at the cutting edge of technology whereas if the Premier League can't get decisions bang on with the most money in the world to build a VAR system, they'll get absolutely battered for it.

The bottom line is that at some point, there will be a major movement to get rid of VAR because they don't manage to iron out the issues that clearly exist and people get fed up of it, or they will successfully address the issues to the point where they win over most of the sceptics. The latter solution may involve one competition finding a particular successful VAR system which can then be rolled out across the world, who knows. What I am sure of is that it will be a few seasons down the line before we can say it's not fixable or it has been fixed.

It's an innovation, and sometimes innovation has to happen in a very public domain. VAR is a brand new thing that has to be trialled at the very top of the game because of the expense. It's like the 16 year old winger coming on for his senior debut. Lots of talent but frustratingly unrefined and having to learn on the job in front of 80,000 people. Half of them are understanding when he gives the ball away and are willing to give him a few years to refine what he has to offer the team, even if his mistakes are annoying in the mean time. The other half don't want an error prone player in the team and prefer to go back to the old tried and tested player from last season. I personally prefer to give VAR a chance and see how the trial and error goes.

[Guest]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

Ah how did I forget that one .

I don't want to come across as too Eurocentric but I will have to judge VAR on the football I actually watch. I won't pretend to know for sure but I'd guess that in South America they're probably under a bit less pressure to be at the cutting edge of technology whereas if the Premier League can't get decisions bang on with the most money in the world to build a VAR system, they'll get absolutely battered for it.

Well that's not how it works. If VAR isn't working in other parts of the world either, than it still counts. It's not solely down to the football that "Rando watches".

The Copa America this past summer was a mess because of it.

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Grizzly21 said:

Well that's not how it works. If VAR isn't working in other parts of the world either, than it still counts. It's not solely down to the football that "Rando watches".

The Copa America this past summer was a mess because of it.

I don't know what you want me to say. I can't comment on football I haven't seen, so I can't agree with you, and I can't argue against you. If I was being cynical I'd say that was very convenient for your argument because I obviously have no grounds to argue that you're wrong. However, you're better off referring to the second half of my post because neither of us are going to change our stance here for the foreseeable future.

I'm acknowledging that VAR and its implementation is less than perfect right now, but what else can we expect? No person or group of people or new piece of technology is going to be perfect at something at the first attempt. We can either scrap VAR because it wasn't instantly perfect, or give it a chance to see if it can be refined first.

[Guest]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

I don't know what you want me to say. I can't comment on football I haven't seen, so I can't agree with you, and I can't argue against you. If I was being cynical I'd say that was very convenient for your argument because I obviously have no grounds to argue that you're wrong. However, you're better off referring to the second half of my post because neither of us are going to change our stance here for the foreseeable future.

I'm acknowledging that VAR and its implementation is less than perfect right now, but what else can we expect? No person or group of people or new piece of technology is going to be perfect at something at the first attempt. We can either scrap VAR because it wasn't instantly perfect, or give it a chance to see if it can be refined first.

I can tell you're not arsed but all it takes is Youtube highlights 

I can understand why you don't want to judge games or incidents you've not seen, and that is probably the correct way to think as a football fan but I also think its silly to just rule them out as if they aren't relevant cos you nor many other Europeans watch it. It still counts. There was an incident with VAR in the African Champions League final which I still haven't seen, but it sounded like problems I have been seeing already with VAR itself, only taken to the extreme.

I don't agree with your last paragraph either, as I followed the very first tournament that VAR was in: The Club World Cup of 2016. Since then a bunch of tournaments I watch have implemented it, and been a mess in all except for the World Cup. I've given it a chance after that, and it went back to how it originally was since that first incorrect decision was given against Atletico Nacional where Kashima got an offside penalty given.

The only thing I will say is that it deserves its chance in the PL since its the biggest league and hasn't gotten there until now, but if I were to be honest, I can't see it any different to what has been happening in other leagues. It's only a matter of time before people start realizing that VAR is actually terrible and how wrong they were in asking for it.

[Dan+]

It's not one weekend of 3pms though is it. I've seen plenty of it. It's the passon drain.

[Happy Blue]

15 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Oh stop being a wet wipe. Jesus's goal was as close as you can get. I doubt anyone would have been crying had it stood at all. 

That  goal should of stood, VAR failed on that call  ..but i think it will turn out to be a good thing in the long run, the correct score is the most important thing, right? no more losing or winning games with off side goals, keepers and players are going to have to stop fucking about on penalty's, diving cunts like Sterling are going to have to stop doing it because it will be checked etc  ..i also think they should do away with extra time and just stop the clock when the ball is not in play, then correct time will be played

[Mel81x+]

VAR, like any other technology can't get better without more adoption and if every league uses it then we'll start to see edge cases ruled out faster. The idea that its perfect should really be taken out of everyone's mind because the problem with VAR isn't the technology its the people using the technology. If the VAR personnel judging a match can't make decisions fast the technology hasn't failed here the people have and I doubt we're going to see that for very long either. It will probably stay around till the next World Cup and generate more heartache in the process while giving out more accuracy in the 80% mark which is much better than what things stood at.

[Football Rex]

A humiliating opening day for West Ham as Man City runs riot.

[Storts]

12 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't get the argument about celebrating. Just enjoy the moment and celebrate the goal. Especially if you're at the match, at some point you will have gone mad celebrating a goal before VAR and then had to chill out because you hadn't noticed the flag had gone up. It's on you if you choose not to celebrate goals anymore just because there's a slim chance of it getting ruled out by VAR.

There were 27 genuine goals in the Premier League this weekend and 2 others which got chalked off by a VAR check. That's less than 7% of the time where fans celebrated a goal and it was ruled out. It will be less than that on other weekends too.

I'd love to know what all of that is based on. Given that they show the world on television now the replays that they're looking at so that everyone can see why they've made a decision, and that it is backed up by their technology, there's no way they can get away with incorrect or corrupt decisions.

I'm usually very cynical about football and how corrupt it undoubtedly is, but who stands to benefit from them not improving the use of VAR? In this case, I can't see who would be trying to put money in FIFA's pocket saying "please keep VAR controversial so people keep complaining about it"?

You're wrong on this one, which is a rarity, but not sure you fully understand. You can't just say 'enjoy the moment and celebrate the goal' - human nature and mindset doesn't work like that. It's always in the back of your mind about VAR now - you can't switch that off. I actually check the linesman's flag too, but that's quick - this isn't. The match going experience is 100% worse due to the introduction of VAR and you cannot argue with that. It may be better in the long run for the majority, because really it doesn't matter so much if you're watching on tv, but the best part of football are those wild celebrations and to have those watered down a bit with the threat of it being disallowed several minutes later is not what I want from the game. 

 

[Stan]

To be honest, at the game yesterday my first reaction was out of frustration that we conceded. It was genuinely only until they got back up to kick-off and waiting for Marriner to blow the whistle to restart the game that I realised there was VAR to check the goal

[RandoEFC+]

15 minutes ago, Storts said:

You're wrong on this one, which is a rarity, but not sure you fully understand. You can't just say 'enjoy the moment and celebrate the goal' - human nature and mindset doesn't work like that. It's always in the back of your mind about VAR now - you can't switch that off. I actually check the linesman's flag too, but that's quick - this isn't. The match going experience is 100% worse due to the introduction of VAR and you cannot argue with that. It may be better in the long run for the majority, because really it doesn't matter so much if you're watching on tv, but the best part of football are those wild celebrations and to have those watered down a bit with the threat of it being disallowed several minutes later is not what I want from the game. 

 

Fair opinion, I don't think there's a right or a wrong on this yet though. Some people will never get over it, many people will adapt their mindset and get used to it. I think as time passes we'll realise that you could go 10-15 games without a goal getting ruled out by VAR, and that the chance of that happening is so slim that you'll be able to relax a bit, I might be proven wrong though.

The worst thing at the moment is this idea of keeping the linesman's flag down when it's close isn't being used correctly, as sometimes a player is a yard offside but the linesman leaves it to VAR to pick it up which leads to a lot of the disallowed goals at the moment. They really need to make sure they only keep the flag down when it's impossible for the naked eye, like the City goal in this match.