Referees/VAR in the Premier League

[Dan+]

It isn't fixable. It compromises the enjoyment of football and it would do so even if it got everything right (which it doesn't), I'd love to eat my words one day but I say with near certainty I won't be needing to.

[Stan]

General musing to anyone who doesn't want VAR, if it does get scrapped I wouldn't want to see any moaning about an incorrect decision ever again. Goal given where the player was offside but not seen? No moaning. Clear penalty not given? No moaning. Blatant handball missed and no penalty? No moaning. Player handballs it in the lead up to a goal being scored? No moaning. 

Can't have it both ways. If it makes football entertaining then of course, everyone wants to see our game as exciting as possible. It's like there needs to be a fine line or compromise to manage and I don't think the answer is to scrap it totally... 

[Moon Monkey]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

General musing to anyone who doesn't want VAR, if it does get scrapped I wouldn't want to see any moaning about an incorrect decision ever again. Goal given where the player was offside but not seen? No moaning. Clear penalty not given? No moaning. Blatant handball missed and no penalty? No moaning. Player handballs it in the lead up to a goal being scored? No moaning. 

Can't have it both ways. If it makes football entertaining then of course, everyone wants to see our game as exciting as possible. It's like there needs to be a fine line or compromise to manage and I don't think the answer is to scrap it totally... 

I'm for it 

[Mpache]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

General musing to anyone who doesn't want VAR, if it does get scrapped I wouldn't want to see any moaning about an incorrect decision ever again. Goal given where the player was offside but not seen? No moaning. Clear penalty not given? No moaning. Blatant handball missed and no penalty? No moaning. Player handballs it in the lead up to a goal being scored? No moaning. 

Can't have it both ways. If it makes football entertaining then of course, everyone wants to see our game as exciting as possible. It's like there needs to be a fine line or compromise to manage and I don't think the answer is to scrap it totally... 

I'll be annoyed at a certain wrong decision without VAR, but to be fair it's better for the referee to make an honest mistake with his own eyes on the pitch than the referee watching the replay 4-5 times and still getting it wrong.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

General musing to anyone who doesn't want VAR, if it does get scrapped I wouldn't want to see any moaning about an incorrect decision ever again. Goal given where the player was offside but not seen? No moaning. Clear penalty not given? No moaning. Blatant handball missed and no penalty? No moaning. Player handballs it in the lead up to a goal being scored? No moaning. 

Can't have it both ways. If it makes football entertaining then of course, everyone wants to see our game as exciting as possible. It's like there needs to be a fine line or compromise to manage and I don't think the answer is to scrap it totally... 

This is my opinion. 

From what I have seen this season var hasn't affected my enjoyment of the game. No one wants the game to be ruined. However I would be willing to compromise slightly to make it more fair. When a goal is checked it doesn't bother me. I still cheer for 20 seconds or so and forget about that. If I find out after they are checking it doesn't  bother me.

When check for a penalty it doesn't bother me. The game is slowed down anyway then. Same for red cards.

So it isn't really affecting my enjoyment. 

Since the referees have started going to the monitors more decisions have been overturned so more correct decisisn are being made.

Now there are going to be times where the decision is slightly subjective so some  people might not agree with it. However var will still increase the right decisions being made.

Sometimes the problem is that fans and pundits are wrong and referees are right. Fans tend to think they know more than they do.

I think sometimes more communication is needed. A good example is the tight offsides. When  they draw the lines a lot of people look at it and cant understand why it is offside. The premier league know this is causing confusion. So if the referees are doing it right they need to explain  why it is right so fans understand.

 

[Scouse_Mouse]

6 hours ago, Dan said:

It isn't fixable. It compromises the enjoyment of football and it would do so even if it got everything right (which it doesn't), I'd love to eat my words one day but I say with near certainty I won't be needing to.

Of course it's fixable. We just need stop trying to use it to determine if a player is 1mm offside or onside. I don't see any reason why it can't be used solely to overturn clear errors, like a player who is clearly offside, if it's not clear after one look on the monitor then let the original decision stand. 

6 hours ago, Mpache said:

I'll be annoyed at a certain wrong decision without VAR, but to be fair it's better for the referee to make an honest mistake with his own eyes on the pitch than the referee watching the replay 4-5 times and still getting it wrong.

Why? That is what VAR is there for, if a ref makes a mistake then review it, once at regular speed without drawing lines, if it's not clear to the VAR official straight away then let the refs decision stand.

There is nothing wrong with having another pair of eyes, the ref is fallible but VAR shouldn't be used to overcomplicate something that isn't complicated.

 

[Dan+]

6 hours ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

Of course it's fixable. We just need stop trying to use it to determine if a player is 1mm offside or onside. I don't see any reason why it can't be used solely to overturn clear errors, like a player who is clearly offside, if it's not clear after one look on the monitor then let the original decision stand. 

Why? That is what VAR is there for, if a ref makes a mistake then review it, once at regular speed without drawing lines, if it's not clear to the VAR official straight away then let the refs decision stand.

There is nothing wrong with having another pair of eyes, the ref is fallible but VAR shouldn't be used to overcomplicate something that isn't complicated.

Too many grey areas again. How clear is 'clear'? What's the point where it isn't clear enough? It isn't fixable. It never will work. I'd bet anybody that they will make some further tweaks to the rules (to supplement VAR, which the VAR apologists will then as usual absolve VAR of the blame for), we will still have problems, rinse and repeat. Football is the best sport in the world by any objective measure. The most popular in the world and the most popular in the most countries, and it very much was that before VAR as well. It doesn't need to taint itself with video technology that fundamentally changes the flow of the game, killing the enjoyment, robbing us of moments and memories. It ruins the spectacle.

[Dan+]

10 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

This is my opinion. 

From what I have seen this season var hasn't affected my enjoyment of the game. No one wants the game to be ruined. However I would be willing to compromise slightly to make it more fair. When a goal is checked it doesn't bother me. I still cheer for 20 seconds or so and forget about that. If I find out after they are checking it doesn't  bother me.

When check for a penalty it doesn't bother me. The game is slowed down anyway then. Same for red cards.

So it isn't really affecting my enjoyment. 

Since the referees have started going to the monitors more decisions have been overturned so more correct decisisn are being made.

Now there are going to be times where the decision is slightly subjective so some  people might not agree with it. However var will still increase the right decisions being made.

Sometimes the problem is that fans and pundits are wrong and referees are right. Fans tend to think they know more than they do.

I think sometimes more communication is needed. A good example is the tight offsides. When  they draw the lines a lot of people look at it and cant understand why it is offside. The premier league know this is causing confusion. So if the referees are doing it right they need to explain  why it is right so fans understand.

You're telling me if Welbeck's goal against us in 2016 was stopped for a minute as they checked it that wouldn't taint that moment at all for you? I mean fair enough, you're entitled to think that, but it just loses something for me. See also things like Aguero's goal v QPR, could you imagine that moment with VAR? It just wouldn't be the same, even if the goal still stands.

The sport is an emotional game, it's a release, I won't even hide that I'm vocally critical of refs during games and what not, it's just a part of the game to me, football's beautiful in its imperfections and yet we're aiming for a perfection that you just simply can't achieve - as proven by the fact we still can't get 100% correct decisions even with VAR.

[Scouse_Mouse]

7 hours ago, Dan said:

Too many grey areas again. How clear is 'clear'? What's the point where it isn't clear enough? It isn't fixable. It never will work. I'd bet anybody that they will make some further tweaks to the rules (to supplement VAR, which the VAR apologists will then as usual absolve VAR of the blame for), we will still have problems, rinse and repeat. Football is the best sport in the world by any objective measure. The most popular in the world and the most popular in the most countries, and it very much was that before VAR as well. It doesn't need to taint itself with video technology that fundamentally changes the flow of the game, killing the enjoyment, robbing us of moments and memories. It ruins the spectacle.

You make it sound like we didn't have many refereeing fuckups before VAR came along. There have been bad decisions that have ruined games for as long as I can remember. There wasn't anything that could be done about it years ago, the technology didn't exist. Now new have the technology there is no reason whatsoever that video review can't be used effectively. Will it eliminate every mistake? of course not, it should eliminate clear errors though. I don't want refs poring over slow motion replays or drawing lines, a look or two is all that's needed, if it's a call that is clearly missed then correct it, if it's not immediately clear then let the refs call stand, the offside rule was never intended to be about a millimetre here or there.

It is fixable, review and correct the obvious mistakes, if it's not immediately obvious let the refs decision stand. 

It sounds simple because it is simple.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

23 hours ago, Mpache said:

I'll be annoyed at a certain wrong decision without VAR, but to be fair it's better for the referee to make an honest mistake with his own eyes on the pitch than the referee watching the replay 4-5 times and still getting it wrong.

I agree with this.

I still think referees should explain themselves after a match because I’m pretty confident if we got actual truthful answers from them they would be “lol I’m just shite”

But VAR’s basically removed all my confidence in the officials entirely.

[Dan+]

2 hours ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

You make it sound like we didn't have many refereeing fuckups before VAR came along. There have been bad decisions that have ruined games for as long as I can remember. There wasn't anything that could be done about it years ago, the technology didn't exist. Now new have the technology there is no reason whatsoever that video review can't be used effectively. Will it eliminate every mistake? of course not, it should eliminate clear errors though. I don't want refs poring over slow motion replays or drawing lines, a look or two is all that's needed, if it's a call that is clearly missed then correct it, if it's not immediately clear then let the refs call stand, the offside rule was never intended to be about a millimetre here or there.

It is fixable, review and correct the obvious mistakes, if it's not immediately obvious let the refs decision stand. 

It sounds simple because it is simple.

You're missing the point again. My issue isn't even necessarily with the refs getting everything wrong. It's an overly ambitious demand for them to get every decision right and as proven by the fact that they still can't even with VAR in place, it makes you question why they bother having it at all. The rules in place are largely subjective, largely down to interpretation and it's an impossible ask to get them all right.

Therefore, why ruin goals and steal some of the moments that make the sport special in the attempt to achieve a goal that they will never fully reach?

I read a brilliant article on the athletic once from Michael Cox, it was a VAR in or out debate, Raphael Honigstein made the pro-VAR case and while he put forward a decent argument himself, Cox listed far too many things that were spot on. Harry Kane when scoring a winner away at Dortmund is asked how he feels about scoring a goal and his first reaction is "I hope that isn't ruled out by VAR". That's just completely damaging to football as a spectacle. I will never dispute that it has increased the number of correct decisions you get in games, but the cost for me completely outweighs the benefit, to a level that I can barely comprehend the fact any fan, player or manager wants it in the game.

[Moon Monkey]

6 minutes ago, Dan said:

You're missing the point again. My issue isn't even necessarily with the refs getting everything wrong. It's an overly ambitious demand for them to get every decision right and as proven by the fact that they still can't even with VAR in place, it makes you question why they bother having it at all. The rules in place are largely subjective, largely down to interpretation and it's an impossible ask to get them all right.

Therefore, why ruin goals and steal some of the moments that make the sport special in the attempt to achieve a goal that they will never fully reach?

I read a brilliant article on the athletic once from Michael Cox, it was a VAR in or out debate, Raphael Honigstein made the pro-VAR case and while he put forward a decent argument himself, Cox listed far too many things that were spot on. Harry Kane when scoring a winner away at Dortmund is asked how he feels about scoring a goal and his first reaction is "I hope that isn't ruled out by VAR". That's just completely damaging to football as a spectacle. I will never dispute that it has increased the number of correct decisions you get in games, but the cost for me completely outweighs the benefit, to a level that I can barely comprehend the fact any fan, player or manager wants it in the game.

That's a decent argument,  well put

 

[Mpache]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with this.

I still think referees should explain themselves after a match because I’m pretty confident if we got actual truthful answers from them they would be “lol I’m just shite”

But VAR’s basically removed all my confidence in the officials entirely.

CONMEBOL has actually released their VAR audios in qualifying, which helped explain some decisions, but some are still very questionable.

If anyone understands Spanish.

 

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Dan said:

You're missing the point again. My issue isn't even necessarily with the refs getting everything wrong. It's an overly ambitious demand for them to get every decision right and as proven by the fact that they still can't even with VAR in place, it makes you question why they bother having it at all. The rules in place are largely subjective, largely down to interpretation and it's an impossible ask to get them all right.

Therefore, why ruin goals and steal some of the moments that make the sport special in the attempt to achieve a goal that they will never fully reach?

I read a brilliant article on the athletic once from Michael Cox, it was a VAR in or out debate, Raphael Honigstein made the pro-VAR case and while he put forward a decent argument himself, Cox listed far too many things that were spot on. Harry Kane when scoring a winner away at Dortmund is asked how he feels about scoring a goal and his first reaction is "I hope that isn't ruled out by VAR". That's just completely damaging to football as a spectacle. I will never dispute that it has increased the number of correct decisions you get in games, but the cost for me completely outweighs the benefit, to a level that I can barely comprehend the fact any fan, player or manager wants it in the game.

Fair enough on the other points - I get lumped in with being a VAR apologist but I feel like I'm one of very few that does recognise it has its limitations.

As for the bit in bold, to avoid the howlers and obvious mistakes is quite an obvious reason to have it. A by-product of that, however, is the questionable margin of where do you draw that magic boundary line of what is a howler/obvious mistake, what's close to such an embarrassing mistake but is still a mistake, and what isn't a mistake that gets verified by being checked. VAR covers all - I said earlier I don't think scrapping it is the answer because we're all on about an entertaining spectacle but I can't believe anyone that says they'll be happy when it's gone then see a utterly disgusting decision go against them, and then not be livid with it as they walk out of the stadium. 

[Scouse_Mouse]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with this.

I still think referees should explain themselves after a match because I’m pretty confident if we got actual truthful answers from them they would be “lol I’m just shite”

But VAR’s basically removed all my confidence in the officials entirely.

I wouldn't say VAR has increased or decreased my confidence in the ref, they have been making mistakes since footy began, and that is never going to change. I just see VAR as a safeguard against the more glaring errors that they make.

2 minutes ago, Dan said:

You're missing the point again. My issue isn't even necessarily with the refs getting everything wrong. It's an overly ambitious demand for them to get every decision right and as proven by the fact that they still can't even with VAR in place, it makes you question why they bother having it at all. The rules in place are largely subjective, largely down to interpretation and it's an impossible ask to get them all right.

Therefore, why ruin goals and steal some of the moments that make the sport special in the attempt to achieve a goal that they will never fully reach?

I read a brilliant article on the athletic once from Michael Cox, it was a VAR in or out debate, Raphael Honigstein made the pro-VAR case and while he put forward a decent argument himself, Cox listed far too many things that were spot on. Harry Kane when scoring a winner away at Dortmund is asked how he feels about scoring a goal and his first reaction is "I hope that isn't ruled out by VAR". That's just completely damaging to football as a spectacle. I will never dispute that it has increased the number of correct decisions you get in games, but the cost for me completely outweighs the benefit, to a level that I can barely comprehend the fact any fan, player or manager wants it in the game.

We are probably pretty much on the same page here mate, I don't want goals ruled out either, I've always maintained that if there is any doubt about a goal then I'd like to see refs give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking player. 

I see no reason to scrap VAR, I don't want multiple reviews, I want the game moving smoothly as we all do. I'd just like to see the most obvious errors corrected by the VAR official, if it's not immediately obvious then let the refs decision stand.

Nobody wants games slowed down or stopped, Kane's goal at Dortmund eg, if it's close and you need slow motion or multi coloured lines then let the goal stand.

[Scouse_Mouse]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

Fair enough on the other points - I get lumped in with being a VAR apologist but I feel like I'm one of very few that does recognise it has its limitations.

As for the bit in bold, to avoid the howlers and obvious mistakes is quite an obvious reason to have it. A by-product of that, however, is the questionable margin of where do you draw that magic boundary line of what is a howler/obvious mistake, what's close to such an embarrassing mistake but is still a mistake, and what isn't a mistake that gets verified by being checked. VAR covers all - I said earlier I don't think scrapping it is the answer because we're all on about an entertaining spectacle but I can't believe anyone that says they'll be happy when it's gone then see a utterly disgusting decision go against them, and then not be livid with it as they walk out of the stadium. 

Exactly. It's not about being a VAR apologist or a ref apologist for that matter.

VAR isn't working right now, that doesn't mean that it's completely broken though and beyond repair.

And it certainly doesn't mean that doing away with it would solve our problems.

[Mpache]

@Dr. Gonzo

The PL should consider this really.

I think having the referee talk like in Rugby isn't family friendly enough, but having audios after the game would explain a lot. That said I don't think it would justify many decisions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=conmebol+var

[Scouse_Mouse]

22 minutes ago, Mpache said:

@Dr. Gonzo

The PL should consider this really.

I think having the referee talk like in Rugby isn't family friendly enough, but having audios after the game would explain a lot. That said I don't think it would justify many decisions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=conmebol+var

Obviously the NFL is a lot more stop and go, but they do seem to have this sorted. A play get's made, ref makes his call then actually explains via his mic what that call is for.

Sounds so simple.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Mpache said:

CONMEBOL has actually released their VAR audios in qualifying, which helped explain some decisions, but some are still very questionable.

If anyone understands Spanish.

 

It’s much easier to take a referee error or a decision where I can’t agree with the ref when you can at least hear their reasoning.

[Dan+]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Fair enough on the other points - I get lumped in with being a VAR apologist but I feel like I'm one of very few that does recognise it has its limitations.

As for the bit in bold, to avoid the howlers and obvious mistakes is quite an obvious reason to have it. A by-product of that, however, is the questionable margin of where do you draw that magic boundary line of what is a howler/obvious mistake, what's close to such an embarrassing mistake but is still a mistake, and what isn't a mistake that gets verified by being checked. VAR covers all - I said earlier I don't think scrapping it is the answer because we're all on about an entertaining spectacle but I can't believe anyone that says they'll be happy when it's gone then see a utterly disgusting decision go against them, and then not be livid with it as they walk out of the stadium. 

Yeah I do have you down as quite a big defender of it, to be honest us two have been chalk & cheese on the subject all along it's tricky regarding where you draw the boundary, because for me you're continuing to aim for a goal you will never achieve. I was convinced VAR would never fully work when I saw an instance of three qualified referees analysing a decision that was made during a game and they were having no end of disagreements on it. That to me proved that the refs are either totally incompetent, or that the rules are just far too complicated to even be sure on. It's an almost impossible job really, and VAR has proven that as well.

They've brought in things like that handball rule to make it easier for refs when using VAR, which I do get, but in doing so it's put so much more of the game down to luck and that's just wrong to me.

I won't be 'happy' if a big decision wrongly goes against us but having had a taste of the other, I think this ongoing debate is far more tedious in the long run. I think I can take the odd decision against us (even if I will moan about it) over this.

 

4 hours ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

I wouldn't say VAR has increased or decreased my confidence in the ref, they have been making mistakes since footy began, and that is never going to change. I just see VAR as a safeguard against the more glaring errors that they make.

We are probably pretty much on the same page here mate, I don't want goals ruled out either, I've always maintained that if there is any doubt about a goal then I'd like to see refs give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking player. 

I see no reason to scrap VAR, I don't want multiple reviews, I want the game moving smoothly as we all do. I'd just like to see the most obvious errors corrected by the VAR official, if it's not immediately obvious then let the refs decision stand.

Nobody wants games slowed down or stopped, Kane's goal at Dortmund eg, if it's close and you need slow motion or multi coloured lines then let the goal stand.

It isn't goals being ruled out that I'm concerned about, for me, it's the overly increased number of goals where it's going to be paused, the moment 'paused' whilst we check for X and Y. What I mean is it makes a lot of goals a lot less enjoyable, even when they still count. Tyrone Mings not celebrating at Old Trafford because he's scared he's about to get flagged, Scotland's goalkeeper at Serbia's gut reaction to saving a penalty to get them to a tournament for the first time in god knows how long is to look over at the official now. Football's beauty, something that for me is what sets it apart from American sports, is that it's hard to score. The 'moment' is rarer. The 89 minutes of dross served up before the 90th minute goal just make that 90th minute goal even sweeter. When it becomes 89 minutes of dross, followed by the goal that we'll spend 2 minutes checking, that pauses that pouring of ecstasy, for me it's just wrong and with VAR there it's an inevitability.

This is nothing to do with biases against my own club either. On the very first day we had VAR in this league, Wolves had a goal chalked off for a handball in the build up, completely accidental, next to no benefit at all if I remember rightly, and it was ruled out. Correctly by the letter of the new rules, but I did watch at the time and think.... this is bad. This isn't going to be good for the game. I've seen nothing since it to make me think otherwise either.

I think the only way you 'save' goal moments is offside technology like they have with goal line, but that's probably much harder to implement, totally alleviates the need for linesmen which again, is another move for the game that would be a shame, though one I can see being necessary too, their job is absolutely impossible as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not totally sure what the solution is. I'd personally rather they scrapped it and kept it more natural, but I just don't see them doing it. Something's got to change though. It's been nothing short of a disaster. Even worse than I imagined it would be.

[Scouse_Mouse]

3 minutes ago, Dan said:

Yeah I do have you down as quite a big defender of it, to be honest us two have been chalk & cheese on the subject all along it's tricky regarding where you draw the boundary, because for me you're continuing to aim for a goal you will never achieve. I was convinced VAR would never fully work when I saw an instance of three qualified referees analysing a decision that was made during a game and they were having no end of disagreements on it. That to me proved that the refs are either totally incompetent, or that the rules are just far too complicated to even be sure on. It's an almost impossible job really, and VAR has proven that as well.

They've brought in things like that handball rule to make it easier for refs when using VAR, which I do get, but in doing so it's put so much more of the game down to luck and that's just wrong to me.

I won't be 'happy' if a big decision wrongly goes against us but having had a taste of the other, I think this ongoing debate is far more tedious in the long run. I think I can take the odd decision against us (even if I will moan about it) over this.

 

It isn't goals being ruled out that I'm concerned about, for me, it's the overly increased number of goals where it's going to be paused, the moment 'paused' whilst we check for X and Y. What I mean is it makes a lot of goals a lot less enjoyable, even when they still count. Tyrone Mings not celebrating at Old Trafford because he's scared he's about to get flagged, Scotland's goalkeeper at Serbia's gut reaction to saving a penalty to get them to a tournament for the first time in god knows how long is to look over at the official now. Football's beauty, something that for me is what sets it apart from American sports, is that it's hard to score. The 'moment' is rarer. The 89 minutes of dross served up before the 90th minute goal just make that 90th minute goal even sweeter. When it becomes 89 minutes of dross, followed by the goal that we'll spend 2 minutes checking, that pauses that pouring of ecstasy, for me it's just wrong and with VAR there it's an inevitability.

This is nothing to do with biases against my own club either. On the very first day we had VAR in this league, Wolves had a goal chalked off for a handball in the build up, completely accidental, next to no benefit at all if I remember rightly, and it was ruled out. Correctly by the letter of the new rules, but I did watch at the time and think.... this is bad. This isn't going to be good for the game. I've seen nothing since it to make me think otherwise either.

I think the only way you 'save' goal moments is offside technology like they have with goal line, but that's probably much harder to implement, totally alleviates the need for linesmen which again, is another move for the game that would be a shame, though one I can see being necessary too, their job is absolutely impossible as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not totally sure what the solution is. I'd personally rather they scrapped it and kept it more natural, but I just don't see them doing it. Something's got to change though. It's been nothing short of a disaster. Even worse than I imagined it would be.

You make good points Dan and in all honesty I can't really disagree with most of them.

VAR has its flaws there is no doubt about that but I truly believe that these flaws can be rectified. Stoppages for reviews were always a concern but it really hasn't been too bad and most reviews that have taken longer than they should you could almost always put down to officials trying to make a call based on millimetres, something nobody wants.

Let the officials officiate, if they miss something that is obvious let the VAR official let the ref know, if it's something not obvious then let the refs decision stand. 

 

[Coma+]

I don't feel like VAR is the problem... I feel like English referees are the problem.  They're either given poor guidance on how to use VAR, or they're complete imbeciles.  I watch the Bundesliga primarily (4-5 matches per week) and I honestly can't recall a decision made by a German ref that I thought was questionable.  I'm sure there have been some, but nothing like the weekly debate in the EPL.  When it's applied correctly it hasn't ruined the game.  But drawing lines from kneecaps to armpits is fucking annoying and, in my opinion, not what the game wants or needs.

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, Coma said:

I don't feel like VAR is the problem... I feel like English referees are the problem.  They're either given poor guidance on how to use VAR, or they're complete imbeciles.  I watch the Bundesliga primarily (4-5 matches per week) and I honestly can't recall a decision made by a German ref that I thought was questionable.  I'm sure there have been some, but nothing like the weekly debate in the EPL.  When it's applied correctly it hasn't ruined the game.  But drawing lines from kneecaps to armpits is fucking annoying and, in my opinion, not what the game wants or needs.

Agree on the whole and it goes back to the point @Dan fairly raised - the change in the rules was brought in because of VAR and the technology available. I can see why it's annoying measuring it so such a fine detail. 

[Batard]

45 minutes ago, Coma said:

I don't feel like VAR is the problem... I feel like English referees are the problem.  They're either given poor guidance on how to use VAR, or they're complete imbeciles.  I watch the Bundesliga primarily (4-5 matches per week) and I honestly can't recall a decision made by a German ref that I thought was questionable.  I'm sure there have been some, but nothing like the weekly debate in the EPL.  When it's applied correctly it hasn't ruined the game.  But drawing lines from kneecaps to armpits is fucking annoying and, in my opinion, not what the game wants or needs.

I agree. The standard of refereeing in the Premier League is really poor. Mike Dean is an exhibtionist who somehow manages to remain a referee despite being absurdly incompetent, the red card for Bednarek was ridiculous a few weeks back even with VAR, he sent him off. That's just shit officiating. 

Jon Moss yesterday in the West Ham v Arsenal game had a shocker as well, not forgetting his flap under pressure with the goal that disallowed, given and then disallowed in the West Brom game. VAR seems to have amplified the idiocy. For a league that praises itself as the best, it's officiating is as bad as Ligue 1, and trust me, that is shite. All VAR has done is made it all too apparent how inept it is. 

[Stan]

20 minutes ago, Batard said:

Jon Moss yesterday in the West Ham v Arsenal game had a shocker as well, not forgetting his flap under pressure with the goal that disallowed, given and then disallowed in the West Brom game

That was Lee Mason but the criticism still applies.

 

The standard, given the league's standing in the world, should be so much better. There's probably only a handful at best of top class referees who you could envisage could be at international tournaments/elite level. For me, they are Anthony Taylor, Michael Oliver and Andre Marriner. Controversy doesn't seem to follow them as much as anyone else. While that's still not a barometer of how good they could be/are, it does still speak for their ability.

The rest are all average at best. Craig Pawson, Lee Mason, Jon Moss, Mike Jones, Kevin Friend, Paul Tierney, Stuart Attwell, Chris Kavanagh, Mike Dean, Graham Scott all fall in that category. They outweigh the good refs far too much, which is bad.