[VOTE] Team of the 21st Century - CDM - Quarter Finals

[RandoEFC+]

Dare I call this the most competitive position so far?

Who makes it into the final four?

[Michael]

Are some of these selections even serious? Carrick, top 8? Seriously?? So Carrick was matched with De Rossi to give De Rossi a free place in the next round, nice one, lol. 

 

 

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

Are some of these selections even serious? Carrick, top 8? Seriously?? So Carrick was matched with De Rossi to give De Rossi a free place in the next round, nice one, lol. 

 

 

Carrick 07-13 was class. DeRossi is more of a box to box for me so if I’m picking a holding midfielder it would be Carrick

[RandoEFC+]

4 minutes ago, Michael said:

Are some of these selections even serious? Carrick, top 8? Seriously?? So Carrick was matched with De Rossi to give De Rossi a free place in the next round, nice one, lol. 

 

 

That's democracy.

[Michael]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

That's democracy.

Fair enough, lol.

[Stan]

48 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Dare I call this the most competitive position so far?

 

Definitely.

[Michael]

40 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Carrick 07-13 was class. DeRossi is more of a box to box for me so if I’m picking a holding midfielder it would be Carrick

I don't really think either are on the level of the rest of the players listed. Carrick and De Rossi were both clearly top level players, but they weren't elite in my book. Carrick was overrated, he had the luxury of being in that Man Utd team littered with class players. He fit in well in that squad, but it's clear that he was one of their lesser players in that team. Carrick only amassed 34 caps for England during his entire career, even Oxlade Chamberlain at 26 years of age, already has more caps for England. For crying out loud, Gareth Barry was deemed a better alternative for England ahead of Carrick at the 2010 World Cup, that says it all. Carrick was a very good player at his best, but he wasn't elite in my opinion.

As for De Rossi, he too was obviously a good player, but as to how good he actually was, the jury is still out for me. Unlike Carrick, De Rossi had over a century of caps for Italy and I am sure Italian football fans such as yourself probably adore him. But apart from Italy's 2006 World Cup winning team at the beginning of his career, De Rossi subsequently played in some very poor Italian national teams. So the amount of international caps he gained, probably doesn't count for too much in evaluating his quality.

He spent his whole career at Roma. With all due respect to Roma, they were not an elite side when De Rossi was with them either. Many a time did Roma with De Rossi in the team get thrashed in the Champions League, while Serie A( I am sure you might disagree) is not as strong as the English Premier League, the Spanish La Liga and the German Bundesliga in my view. If De Rossi was that good, then why didn't the best clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal(in the early and mid 2000's), Man City, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, PSG and even Juventus ever buy him? Surely he would of wanted to challenge himself at an elite club if he was that good. 

I personally prefer De Rossi overall to Carrick, but neither are as good as the other players in this particular vote. The other players on the list have all proven themselves at the highest levels of football and on a consistent basis.

 

[Carnivore Chris]

18 minutes ago, Michael said:

I d

He spent his whole career at Roma. With all due respect to Roma, they were not an elite side when De Rossi was with them either. Many a time did Roma with De Rossi in the team get thrashed in the Champions League, while Serie A( I am sure you might disagree) is not as strong as the English Premier League, the Spanish La Liga and the German Bundesliga in my view. If De Rossi was that good, then why didn't the best clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal(in the early and mid 2000's), Man City, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, PSG and even Juventus ever buy him? Surely he would of wanted to challenge himself at an elite club if he was that good. 

 

 

I believe it's stronger than the Bundesliga(their clubs away from Juve/Bayern have more chance in European competitions for me) but the German league is more exciting.

In fact, I'd say the German league was the most exciting in the world right now.

 

[DeadLinesman]

Seriously though, where the fuck is Lahm? He played CDM once for Bogenhausen U7’s and was class.

[nudge]

1 minute ago, DeadLinesman said:

Seriously though, where the fuck is Lahm? He played CDM once for Bogenhausen U7’s and was class.

To be honest I'm quite impressed with you mentioning Bogenhausen  

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Carnivore Chris said:

I believe it's stronger than the Bundesliga(their clubs away from Juve/Bayern have more chance in European competitions for me) but the German league is more exciting.

In fact, I'd say the German league was the most exciting in the world right now.

 

Ok, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that the Bundesliga as it is right now is better than Serie A. I mean Bayern are the best club from both leagues(and yes, I think they are better than Juventus or Dortmund). Then you have Dortmund, who have just strengthened by signing Haaland(a very significant signature which has greatly strengthened them in attack). RB Leipzig are a tough side who are constantly improving. They have world class players like Werner and other players who are potentially world class. There's Hertha Berlin, who are emerging as a real force in the league. Then there are clubs like Monchengladbach, Leverkusen, Schalke, Hoffenheim and Frankfurt, who on their day can be a real force. 

Indeed in Italy Juventus have been top dogs for ages. Inter Milan are seriously challenging them this season, but this is the same Inter Milan side(minus Lukaku) who lost to and got knocked out by Frankfurt in the Europa League last season. In fact, Frankfurt also thrashed Lazio 6-2 over two games in the Europa League last season. I also think that the clubs at bottom end of the Bundesliga are stronger than their Serie A counterparts at the bottom of Serie A. 

Anyway, this is not the right section for this debate and you are entitled to your opinion. But in any case, I think the English Premier League is undoubtedly the best league in the world. 

[Michael]

13 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Seriously though, where the fuck is Lahm? He played CDM once for Bogenhausen U7’s and was class.

I was thinking the same thing

[Mpache]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Are some of these selections even serious? Carrick, top 8? Seriously?? So Carrick was matched with De Rossi to give De Rossi a free place in the next round, nice one, lol. 

 

 

I really liked De Rossi, but nah he wasn't better than prime Mascherano. I'm not having that.

[Mpache]

Carrick was really good though, and underrated even when he was in his prime. Did a silent job for United. I do indeed agree with him in the top 8.

[Cicero]

11 minutes ago, Vader said:

Carrick was really good though, and underrated even when he was in his prime. Did a silent job for United. I do indeed agree with him in the top 8.

Finally we agree. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Hardest one out of these for me was Kante vs Busquetes

[Michael]

26 minutes ago, Vader said:

Carrick was really good though, and underrated even when he was in his prime. Did a silent job for United. I do indeed agree with him in the top 8.

Yes, a prime Mascherano is one of many who have been left out. But do you think that Carrick was better than Viera for example? No way in my opinion. Scheinsteiger, Cambiasso, Essien, Fabinho, Casemeiro, Hamann and even a prime Vidal are arguably better than Carrick. None of them would of been picked behind Gareth Barry for a second, that's for sure! lol

[Mpache]

Just now, Michael said:

Yes, a prime Mascherano is one of many who have been left out. But do you think that Carrick was better than Viera for example? No way in my opinion. Scheinsteiger, , Cambiasso, Essien, Fabinho, Casemeiro, Hamann and even a prime Vidal are arguably better than Carrick. None of them would of been picked behind Gareth Barry for a second, that's for sure, lol.

It's a cup competition.

Like saying Croatia are better than Brazil because they reached the final and Brazil only quarters.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Wasn't Carrick's prime around Cole's prime? 

[Stan]

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Yes, a prime Mascherano is one of many who have been left out. But do you think that Carrick was better than Viera for example? No way in my opinion. Scheinsteiger, Cambiasso, Essien, Fabinho, Casemeiro, Hamann and even a prime Vidal are arguably better than Carrick. None of them would of been picked behind Gareth Barry for a second, that's for sure! lol

Wasn't Schweinsteiger a number ten?

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Wasn't Schweinsteiger a number ten?

Schweinsteiger played in a number of midfield positions, including defensive midfield, where he excelled during the heyday of his career.

[Mpache]

I get why @Michael wouldn't rate Carrick. Lots of people didn't realize how helpful he was even at his best. He was the silent destroyer of Ferguson's system. He wasn't really talked about much back then, let alone remembered now. So for a non-PL fan it may be silly for him to have gotten this far, but again it's a cup competition. He may make it further than some players he wasn't better than, such as Mascherano.

I remember clearly I was a kid when he was in his prime and saw some people talk about Carrick's importance at United. Thought it was bollocks because I didn't fully understand the role of a silent job at the time especially when you only heard midfielders such as Gerrard or Lampard (well aware they are different). When I did see him, I did see the uses and his importance. The point is though that for a non-PL fan, it may be tough to believe that Carrick was genuinely a top midfielder.

[Michael]

48 minutes ago, Vader said:

I get why @Michael wouldn't rate Carrick. Lots of people didn't realize how helpful he was even at his best. He was the silent destroyer of Ferguson's system. He wasn't really talked about much back then, let alone remembered now. So for a non-PL fan it may be silly for him to have gotten this far, but again it's a cup competition. He may make it further than some players he wasn't better than, such as Mascherano.

I remember clearly I was a kid when he was in his prime and saw some people talk about Carrick's importance at United. Thought it was bollocks because I didn't fully understand the role of a silent job at the time especially when you only heard midfielders such as Gerrard or Lampard (well aware they are different). When I did see him, I did see the uses and his importance. The point is though that for a non-PL fan, it may be tough to believe that Carrick was genuinely a top midfielder.

Errr…..with all due respect, I don't think you quite get why I don't rate Carrick as on the same level as the elite midfielders in his position. Number one, I am a PL fan, I grew up on Premiership football and I am English myself. I appreciate that you perhaps didn't see the importance of the defensive midfielders when you were younger, but I have for the most part since watching football, understood their value to a team. 

Carrick was an excellent passer of the ball, he was a good tackler of the ball as well and he had a good shot on him when he saw fit to have a pop from long range. However, Carrick didn't have the work rate that elite midfielders should have. I remember many times where he failed to track back when his teams where under attack, where he failed to pick up his man which on many occasions resulted in a conceded goal. Notwithstanding the fact that he wasn't fast as a player, I just don't think he had the presence that an elite player should have.

Yes, he was criticised by many pundits and that was for good reason. When did any of the other elite midfielders get criticized as often as Carrick? Now don't get me wrong, of course Carrick was a top level player, but he benefitted greatly from the qualities of the players at United. I think a good scenario to think about is if Carrick where at a relegation threatened club. Who do you think would be more influential for such a club, Carrick or say a Kante or a Viera or a Keane, I think that the answer is self-explanatory.

I hate to repeat myself, but seriously, if you were a manager of a team, would you spend a second deliberating whether to play Barry in your team instead of the well known elite defensive midfielders? The answer is a no brainer. Yet a fully fit Carrick in his prime, was seen as second fiddle to Gareth Barry for England. I don't think that the mighty Capello would of started Barry, if he had a Kante, Redondo, Makelele, Viera or a Keane at his disposal(Understatement of the year!).

[Mpache]

Carrick wasn't against Kante, Viera, Redondo, Makelele or Keane though. He was against Van Bommel. I voted for Carrick because I knew how he played and knew little to nothing about Van Bommel as a player.

I also never said he was "criticized" he was just not talked about. At all, at least from my memory. I also wouldn't take Capello's decisions too seriously as managers can be wrong especially when it's someone who did as poorly as him for England.