Arsenal Discussion

[Spike]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

This is true what you're saying and I can't dispute that neither have I ever pretended to do it...  What I do try and do even though some Arsenal fans on TFF don't understand is put forward my opinions on solutions.  The whole thing is stale on the football side of things for years and the club heirachy mainly look at the figures and all that goes along with Arsenal Holdings PLC.

A club that doesn't want to win will never win. Why take a larger gamble on a trophy when qualifying guarantees the same return? Why spend more to win, when the club can coast along the same lines?

Arsenal isn't a club, European football is dead and greed isn't filthy. There is more desire, heart and soul in North-American franchises than all of European football.

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

A club that doesn't want to win will never win. Why take a larger gamble on a trophy when qualifying guarantees the same return? Why spend more to win, when the club can coast along the same lines?

Arsenal isn't a club, European football is dead and greed isn't filthy. There is more desire, heart and soul in North-American franchises than all of European football.

You don't necessarily have to spend extreme amounts to win or compete, which is what I really want.  It would be blatant arrogance to demand to win when we aren't even on a status level by comparison historically to others.  It's about competing mate!

Look at Atlético Madrid?  They win and when they don't win, they're definitely competing!  We have triple the resources that Atlético Madrid have and then I can go further down the line with a club like Sevilla.  Being astute with the correct structure at a club can bring rewards as Sevilla have proved over the years and they are a pea by comparison institutionally with Arsenal.

I could name many other clubs but obviously I know a lot more about Spanish football to the minuscule detail which is why I've used those two and which would be easy anyhow.  But it's the financial aspect you've brought up on the spending avenues which I've touched upon here.

European football's problem is that they are trying to become like those American sports franchises and that has NOTHING to do with football.  They can keep that because it's boring from a real football fan's perspective.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

You don't necessarily have to spend extreme amounts to win or compete, which is what I really want.  It would be blatant arrogance to demand to win when we aren't even on a status level by comparison historically to others.  It's about competing mate!

Look at Atlético Madrid?  They win and when they don't win, they're definitely competing!  We have triple the resources that Atlético Madrid have and then I can go further down the line with a club like Sevilla.  Being astute with the correct structure at a club can bring rewards as Sevilla have proved over the years and they are a pea by comparison institutionally with Arsenal.

I could name many other clubs but obviously I know a lot more about Spanish football to the minuscule detail which is why I've used those two and which would be easy anyhow.  But it's the financial aspect you've brought up on the spending avenues which I've touched upon here.

European football's problem is that they are trying to become like those American sports franchises and that has NOTHING to do with football.  They can keep that because it's boring from a real football fan's perspective.

Trying to become American sports franchises in what way? The only defining characteristic of American sports is winning. Winning is everything, all that matters is reaching the brass ring. It is the very nature of any sports team to win and that nature is curbed at Arsenal and in Europe in general. Merely qualifying is a seen as a victory in Europe, not so in North-America. 

European football is the furthest thing from American franchises, they are nothing like that and I'd say sports in America is more pure than in Europe. Nobody remembers who got to the quarter finals on the World Series but every single Arsenal fan will tell you about their constant top four qualification.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

I'd say sports in America is more pure than in Europe. Nobody remembers who got to the quarter finals on the World Series

This is why it's shit mate!  Maybe you can do that with other sports but not with football!

Football is unique whether the Americans like it or not.  Back in the 80's they tried hard to change football rules to quarters instead of halves, making the goals bigger, time-outs blah blah blah because there were tons of these things.  I like the fact football is antiquated in some respects because it relies on moments as a legendary symbol.  Take for example past great players that didn't win too much, they're also legends of the game like for example George Best at international level or Buffon who at international level has done it but at club level he hasn't won the most prized of trophies (as seen on the continent) which is the European Cup (Champions League).  We could go n naming names!

Clubs come into this standing...  Winning is the goal but not everyone wins and along the way special things happen.

Here I'm not talking necessarily winning, but competing!  Demanding to win is total arrogance because you're not on your own, but if you design a good project to really compete, then you are in with a chance of tasting glory.

[Panna King]

Xhaka isnt an Arsenal type player, its quite embarrassing watching him play due to the role he is playing. 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

Xhaka isnt an Arsenal type player, its quite embarrassing watching him play due to the role he is playing. 

He has been given too much responsibility in that midfield to be honest and that has held him back so to speak.  He is almost a commodity due to his very good passing range and accuracy.

[Panna King]

Just now, SirBalon said:

He has been given too much responsibility in that midfield to be honest and that has held him back so to speak.  He is almost a commodity due to his very good passing range and accuracy.

Well long passing isnt for Arsenal, I have no idea why Wenger bought him, he isnt the type of player and his short passing is poor as he gave the ball away so much yesterday plus Coquelin has been dreadful since he has signed a new deal which again doesn't help.  Arsenal have been out done too many times in midfield this season agaisnt the good teams, when that is the most important battle on the pitch.   

[Spike]

55 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

This is why it's shit mate!  Maybe you can do that with other sports but not with football!

Football is unique whether the Americans like it or not.  Back in the 80's they tried hard to change football rules to quarters instead of halves, making the goals bigger, time-outs blah blah blah because there were tons of these things.  I like the fact football is antiquated in some respects because it relies on moments as a legendary symbol.  Take for example past great players that didn't win too much, they're also legends of the game like for example George Best at international level or Buffon who at international level has done it but at club level he hasn't won the most prized of trophies (as seen on the continent) which is the European Cup (Champions League).  We could go n naming names!

Clubs come into this standing...  Winning is the goal but not everyone wins and along the way special things happen.

Here I'm not talking necessarily winning, but competing!  Demanding to win is total arrogance because you're not on your own, but if you design a good project to really compete, then you are in with a chance of tasting glory.

Clubs and players aren't comparable, mate! We are talking about winning on a club level is different to a player! You cannot bring George Best into a discussion about Arsenal and American sports. Nobody remembers the team that came third in America but they do remember the award winning goal-tender on the worst team in the league. Every team in America has at least something to brag about on a player perspective (because that is parity of NA). Cubs fans will always remember Ernie Banks and Sammy Sosa but they don't hum on the fact their team lost for 108 straight years, they don't brag about coming fourth. They appreciate their players but on the whole scale of the club, it's only winning that is important (competing is the first to that). More teams win in America because of the parity so it's a true rarity that legendary player goes without winning too much. Alex Oveckin is probably the second or third best forward in hockey today and people celebrate him for it, but they don't brag about how their team constantly underachieves.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Spike

[Panna King]

Football has got shit since Americans got involved in it and Murdoch who has destroyed the whole experience with TV Deals which is destroying grass roots and lower league football.  Its too commercial now and football stadiums are just a piece of real estate, instead of the stadiums of the past with the tradition, culture and everything about it smelt of football. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by VanPanna

[Spike]

Just now, VanPanna said:

Football has got shit since Americans got involved in it and Murdoch who has destroyed the whole experience with TV Deals which is destroying grass roots and lower league football. 

Murdoch is Australian.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

they don't brag about coming fourth.

I get you and I can agree with a lot of that but the part I've quoted you on has nothing to do with the football I am talking about where moments are concerned.  That's the total opposite because that's not competitiveness.  Infact that's something modern, something relatively new because at Arsenal we have been conditioned to think that finishing in the top four is a trophy and bragging about the fact he's done it for 16 years or some crap like that (I'm not even sure if I got that right which shows how little I care about that) seems to be seen as something tremendous.  The press has a lot to do with this but it's just another small detail in the way they market this league which has a lot of holes in it.  It doesn't need all the bullshit because it could easily sell itself (there I'm going into something totally off topic here).

In my last post where I defended the uniqueness of football, it had nothing whatsoever to do with seeing a top four finish as something special (just for the record and so you know that that means nothing to me).  I was getting at something else where football is concerned and where winning isn't everything about this sport although the target should always be working to win which to do you must be competitive with the best.

[Panna King]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

Murdoch is Australian.

I know he is that is why I mentioned him separately, but his brand is of an American approach he controls the sports media now in most football countries, Italy, Germany, England and Netherlands with Sky and Fox.   I don't now much about the TV rights in Spain but I am not sure if he has something to do that with also but it kind of gives me the impression he doesnt of yet due to Barcelona, Real Madrid controlling their own rights.    Kroenke is of that kind of person who isn't up on the football due to his own running of sports teams in America, its just a real estate to him and nothing else matters about the tribal support.  

Edited March 6, 2017 by VanPanna

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I get you and I can agree with a lot of that but the part I've quoted you on has nothing to do with the football I am talking about where moments are concerned.  That's the total opposite because that's not competitiveness.  Infact that's something modern, something relatively new because at Arsenal we have been conditioned to think that finishing in the top four is a trophy and bragging about the fact he's done it for 16 years or some crap like that (I'm not even sure if I got that right which shows how little I care about that) seems to be seen as something tremendous.  The press has a lot to do with this but it's just another small detail in the way they market this league which has a lot of holes in it.  It doesn't need all the bullshit because it could easily sell itself (there I'm going into something totally off topic here).

In my last post where I defended the uniqueness of football, it had nothing whatsoever to do with seeing a top four finish as something special (just for the record and so you know that that means nothing to me).  I was getting at something else where football is concerned and where winning isn't everything about this sport although the target should always be working to win which to do you must be competitive with the best.

What is that je ne sais quois? Something cultural? Something to identify with being from a certain background or location? That isn't unique to football and the alienation from grassroots isn't unique to football as well. It's been a long time since West Ham players were local steel-workers; does the club still represent the local industry and culture? No I don't think any club does (outside a few exceptions, but they aren't the rule), but the fans do. All that matters is how the fans feel; if the fans feel like Arsenal represents an idea, an abstract of concept of what it means to be an Arsenal supporter then I suppose it still exists in it's purity. American sports fans still feel that way as well, particularly for the older teams, the Cubs represent the north of Chicago, the middle-class and the more WASP neighbourhoods. Their cross-town rivals are the working-class, the poorer people and African-Americans. Their is a reason why New York and LA are viscous rivals, because they represent to polarising cultures from the two biggest cities in America on opposite coasts. There are reasons to why Chicago and Detroit are rivals, the economic rivalries of Lake Michigan and Lake Eerie, etc.

[Panna King]

22 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I get you and I can agree with a lot of that but the part I've quoted you on has nothing to do with the football I am talking about where moments are concerned.  That's the total opposite because that's not competitiveness.  Infact that's something modern, something relatively new because at Arsenal we have been conditioned to think that finishing in the top four is a trophy and bragging about the fact he's done it for 16 years or some crap like that (I'm not even sure if I got that right which shows how little I care about that) seems to be seen as something tremendous.  The press has a lot to do with this but it's just another small detail in the way they market this league which has a lot of holes in it.  It doesn't need all the bullshit because it could easily sell itself (there I'm going into something totally off topic here).

In my last post where I defended the uniqueness of football, it had nothing whatsoever to do with seeing a top four finish as something special (just for the record and so you know that that means nothing to me).  I was getting at something else where football is concerned and where winning isn't everything about this sport although the target should always be working to win which to do you must be competitive with the best.

A very worrying thought is coming to mind, UEFA and Fifa are making the tournaments bigger now for international football, I wouldn't be surprised very soon that the Champions League will go down this root and clubs in the top 6 will qualify.  Arsenal the way it has been run really has been their own enemy by just standing still while other clubs now are wanting to break in this group to get the money that the Champions League offers,    clubs and Managers are now more advanced then Arsenal are now and will by pass them while a dinosaur like Wenger is able to handle the whole football side at the club. The board will only make a big decision if Arsenal fail to get the champions league place as that is all what matters to the board is turnover and that will have a serious effect on them. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by VanPanna

[SirBalon]

13 minutes ago, Spike said:

What is that je ne sais quois? Something cultural? Something to identify with being from a certain background or location? That isn't unique to football and the alienation from grassroots isn't unique to football as well. It's been a long time since West Ham players were local steel-workers; does the club still represent the local industry and culture? No I don't think any club does (outside a few exceptions, but they aren't the rule), but the fans do. All that matters is how the fans feel; if the fans feel like Arsenal represents an idea, an abstract of concept of what it means to be an Arsenal supporter then I suppose it still exists in it's purity. American sports fans still feel that way as well, particularly for the older teams, the Cubs represent the north of Chicago, the middle-class and the more WASP neighbourhoods. Their cross-town rivals are the working-class, the poorer people and African-Americans. Their is a reason why New York and LA are viscous rivals, because they represent to polarising cultures from the two biggest cities in America on opposite coasts. There are reasons to why Chicago and Detroit are rivals, the economic rivalries of Lake Michigan and Lake Eerie, etc.

Yeah that is a part of it and it wasn't all that long ago that Arsenal for example still participated in local events, supported local businesses and even the poorer people locally.  All of that is DEAD!  But it goes much further than that in why football is unique mate.

Have you ever read Nick Hornby's "Fever Pitch"?

[Spike]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Yeah that is a part of it and it wasn't all that long ago that Arsenal for example still participated in local events, supported local businesses and even the poorer people locally.  All of that is DEAD!  But it goes much further than that in why football is unique mate.

Have you ever read Nick Hornby's "Fever Pitch"?

No I have not. But I'll look into it and I'll brighten your day by showing you how deeply involved into the community my hockey team is. The Hawks are constantly having programs with local charities that include Native Americans, reading programs for the illiterate, hockey programs for primary school kids, homelessness, low-income student scholarships, and so much more. The players are always seen at charity events and fundraisers as well. 

 

[LFCMadLad]

https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/05/arsenal-players-turned-on-alexis-sanchez-after-he-walked-out-of-training-session-ahead-of-liverpool-clash-6489952/

Seems there was more to Sanchez being dropped than Arsenal fans think?

Either way, he's gone. 

[LFCMadLad]

Heard a rumour we are going to bid £40m + £0.50p to pair him up with Coutinho, Firmino & Mane 

[SirBalon]

13 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Heard a rumour we are going to bid £40m + £0.50p to pair him up with Coutinho, Firmino & Mane 

That would actually be hilarious to be honest. 

On another note...  Both The Sun and The Mirror have back pages today with the Alexis row.  It's looking more and more likely he'll be leaving.

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Spike said:

No I have not. But I'll look into it and I'll brighten your day by showing you how deeply involved into the community my hockey team is. The Hawks are constantly having programs with local charities that include Native Americans, reading programs for the illiterate, hockey programs for primary school kids, homelessness, low-income student scholarships, and so much more. The players are always seen at charity events and fundraisers as well. 

 

That all sounds great and I hope it's genuine.  I mean...  Present football clubs these days in most places everywhere do tend to visit kids in hospitals and all that which you can associate with this type of thing.  The present is also always invited which is sort of a downer to be honest if you know what I mean.  That's not what I'm on about from a football perspective but it's good to see that some American sports institutions help out the community.

[Panna King]

Wenger has denied that Sanchez was dropped due to a bust up.

 

Quote

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger says reports of a training ground row between Alexis Sanchez and his team-mates are "completely false".

Sanchez is believed to have had an angry exchange with fellow players after leaving training mid-session prior to Saturday's loss at Liverpool.

He was confronted by team-mates on their return to the changing room as tempers flared.

"I'm not aware, nothing happened," said Wenger.

Sanchez was left out of the starting line-up at Anfield but came on and set up a goal for his side in the second half as Arsenal lost 3-1.

"I explained after the game I decided to go for a more direct option, that was the unique reason for my decision," said Wenger.

"He is a committed player and sometimes with excessive behaviours but you have had that many times in the history of every squad."

Wenger was speaking before the second leg of his side's Champions League last-16 tie on Tuesday at home to Bayern Munich, who lead 5-1.

Asked about his relationship with Sanchez, the Frenchman said: "Honest and normal like with every single player."

 

 

 

 

[LFCMadLad]

29 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

Wenger has denied that Sanchez was dropped due to a bust up.

 

 

 

 

 

Well he will deny it won't he. But the evidence suggests it's true. Why else would he bench Arsenals best player (by far) in a 6 point game against a direct rival for top 4? 

I still don't get why Sanchez was seen smirking when Liverpool went 1 and then 2 -0 up though? 

Had that been a Leicester players caught doing that under Ranieri there would have been hell to pay 

[Cicero]

People are looking too much into that.

 Firmino scored in the 8th minute. So was Sanchez laughing for 16 minutes straight? They put the camera on him at around the 25th minute. 

Granted he shouldn't be making jokes but hardly a catastrophic moment. 

[Spike]

6 hours ago, SirBalon said:

That all sounds great and I hope it's genuine.  I mean...  Present football clubs these days in most places everywhere do tend to visit kids in hospitals and all that which you can associate with this type of thing.  The present is also always invited which is sort of a downer to be honest if you know what I mean.  That's not what I'm on about from a football perspective but it's good to see that some American sports institutions help out the community.

You gotta appreciate that the Blackhawks were dead in the water a decade ago. Nobody liked the team or the owner. Tickets were expensive, popular members of the organisation were fired, games weren't allowed on TV, the team was the worst in the league, etc. They managed to turn it around into a team that is involved in the community is universally loved on and off the ice.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

People are looking too much into that.

 Firmino scored in the 8th minute. So was Sanchez laughing for 16 minutes straight? They put the camera on him at around the 25th minute. 

Granted he shouldn't be making jokes but hardly a catastrophic moment. 

 why not?

Meant to be permanently miserable cos they're losing?