American Politics Discussion

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’d think so, but it’s a country where the biggest reason for financial trouble is medical bills, pretty much everyone I know here is in support of some sort of USA equivalent of NHS, yet in national politics... getting Americans on-board with a state provided healthcare system seems nearly impossible.

I can tell you how some coastal Californians think. But if I drive an hour or 2 out East, it’s basically a very different California. Same with Northern California vs Southern California - some pretty big differences, although I’d say that’s less different than the whole city v rural thing.

And thats just one of the 50 states. If you asked me to explain how people from the Deep South think... I wouldn’t be able to tell you at all.

And even then, the terrorist bitch who got shot during the insurrection that out to be a San Diego resident at Ocean Beach (weirdly, because that’s a hippy-hub... and she was a US Air Force veteran that was a virulent racist). So even then, she was pretty different from her neighbors I’d say.

It’s a ridiculously diverse country. There’s so many differences between people in this one state alone, I have to assume other states (at least the populated ones) are similar. The empty ones too though probably. I’d say it’s hard to get a pulse on Americans because of that diversity

I meant you will understand it more than me. Not necessarily understand it well. Is it true that in america different states are very different? From what I have heard different states in america sometimes have very different views, almost like different countries. And also that sometimes some people have no idea what people in other states think like.  This is probably partly why someone from Texas couldn't undertand how Biden won because he has never met a biden supporter.

[Dr. Gonzo]

55 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I meant you will understand it more than me. Not necessarily understand it well. Is it true that in america different states are very different? From what I have heard different states in america sometimes have very different views, almost like different countries. And also that sometimes some people have no idea what people in other states think like.  This is probably partly why someone from Texas couldn't undertand how Biden won because he has never met a biden supporter.

Yeah the states are all very different. Texas is more of a purple state than a full red state, but I could see people in Kentucky (or some other place like that) not knowing anyone that voted for Biden.

[Dr. Gonzo]

To make a wide and sweeping generalisation, which I don’t like to do, I just think a lot of Americans are trained at school to think: COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM = BAD, CAPITALISM = GOOD,  USA HAS THE STRONGEST MILITARY.

And then when they grow up they don’t question why they spend so little on improving life for Americans, but spend so much on blowing up people in the Middle East.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

To make a wide and sweeping generalisation, which I don’t like to do, I just think a lot of Americans are trained at school to think: COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM = BAD, CAPITALISM = GOOD,  USA HAS THE STRONGEST MILITARY.

And then when they grow up they don’t question why they spend so little on improving life for Americans, but spend so much on blowing up people in the Middle East.

Socialism is very hard to understand to be honest. It's quite understandable that if someone hasn't made an effort to understand it they could misunderstand it. In fact even people who study it dont understand parts of it. I would admit I only have a basic understanding of it myself.

What some Americans dont seem to realise though is even America has some socialism. As soon as you have something like food stamps you have an element of socialism. Some may even argue free education is moderate socialism.

Personally I like the idea of a largely free market with some restrictions when necessary.  I support heavy tax for very rich people. The reason is that 20 years a go or so CEOs use to take around 30 times the salary of their lowest paid workers. Now on average they take 300 times as much. That means that if you were a minimum wage worker on around 18000 a year then CEOs salary will be over 5 million. But who has decided they can take this much? The people at the top. It isn't a reflection of their worth it's just what they have decided they can take. So even if we tax them 50 percent they will still earn over 2 and a half million  a year and that money could be used to tackle poverty partly caused by them taking to much money. 

Now whether taxing the rich so much works is a different matter. That is a very difficult thing to determine and even the worlds leading experts admit they aren't to sure. However I support the principles behind it.

I dont think personally the more you look at it you can justify anyone being in poverty when CEOs are earning so much. And the more I've looked into it the more strongly I feel that. I use to think it was a bit unfair to tax the rich so much because they earn that money but the truth is a lot of the time they dont it's just the market allowed them to because they control it.

However I tend to stop at poverty though. I haven't got strong opinions after the poverty line. What I mean is I'm not sure whether more should be done to help people who are on good salaries and dont have to worry about where there next meal is coming from. I haven't thought about that.

One thing I would say is that unlike some left wingers I would  support some right wing ideas if they helped with poverty. For example I would support private health care if it was more efficient, cheaper and didn't mean poor people were left to die. However I thank it is very unlikely that is the case. In fact alot of experts have said a tax increase by as little as 2 percent would sort a lot of the nhs issues out. Where as privatising it would cost a lot more.

It's a bit of a simple way if thinking I admit and it is a lot more complicated than that I know. But as far as I can tell the basics are right. I was actually talking to a professor on another forum and he said I had the basics right.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Guest

[RandoEFC+]

Socialism to me just means that everyone should be entitled to a good education, good healthcare, somewhere safe to live and enough food to feed their kids. It doesn't take an awful lot of effort to distinguish between that and out and out communism. 

For countries like the US and the UK who love to obsess over GDP and how good their economy is, and are among the top few richest countries in the world, these shouldn't be controversial demands, but unfortunately some rich people are very good at grooming the peasants to think that they'll end up coughing up loads of extra taxes for something they won't benefit from when in actual fact the polar opposite is true.

The Democrats had to go for Biden as their candidate instead of Sanders partly because Sanders wanted to do too many things that would benefit 99% of the population. That's a very simplistic summary but it's more or less where politics and discourse is in the US.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Socialism to me just means that everyone should be entitled to a good education, good healthcare, somewhere safe to live and enough food to feed their kids. It doesn't take an awful lot of effort to distinguish between that and out and out communism. 

For countries like the US and the UK who love to obsess over GDP and how good their economy is, and are among the top few richest countries in the world, these shouldn't be controversial demands, but unfortunately some rich people are very good at grooming the peasants to think that they'll end up coughing up loads of extra taxes for something they won't benefit from when in actual fact the polar opposite is true.

The Democrats had to go for Biden as their candidate instead of Sanders partly because Sanders wanted to do too many things that would benefit 99% of the population. That's a very simplistic summary but it's more or less where politics and discourse is in the US.

I personally hope New Zealand carries on the way it does. The New Zealand prime minister said she was going to put the needs of people ahead of GDP. So far it has been very successful and many people regard her as the best world leader in the world.  Things like this influence people. 

I think when you look through history what is considered in some ways left wing at the time does become normal in the future.  I mean stopping segregation in  america was considered communism at the time by many but now it would be considered a very far right ideology. The nhs was called socialism/communism at the time by some but now most conservative voters support it. I'm sure there are things that right wingers call socialism/communism now that future generations will almost universally except 

[RandoEFC+]

Yeah they don't actually think it's communism though. That's just their go to word, although Marxism has gained plenty of traction recently too, to try and scare people into thinking that left leaning parties want to take away all your rights and turn the country into Russia or China when actually they just want to increase tax on multi-billionaires by 0.5% to buy vegetables and central heating for poor families.

[Stan]

I'd seen the still of this scrolling through Twitter yesterday but never got round to watching it.

Just watched it now, I love that last line  

 

[Stan]

Wow

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Concerning. I'm cautious in saying so but I think Trump has pretty much shot his bolt now. He's chosen the legal protection of making public statements that cover his backside instead of continuing the incitement. But the damage has been done, so it remains to be seen now how extreme the actual reaction is and to what extent these armed riots actually go ahead.

[Burning Gold]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Wow

 

 

Some really concerning things have come out of the protest last week. Images of protesters climbing over seats holding bundles of thick zipties ready-made into handcuffs, reports that panic buttons in Ayanna Pressley's office had been torn out, images of a GOP congresswoman taking protestors on a tour of the capital the previous day (the same congresswoman who tweeted Nancy Pelosi's location during the event). Even the stuff I think you posted in this thread about the lone police officer directing protesters away from the chamber where lawmakers were. This could easily have been a lot more serious than it ended up being (which is still pretty serious). I'm with @RandoEFC though that they've shot their shot and missed. A lot of supposed ringleaders are in police custody, and they've lost the element of surprise for Biden's inauguration

[RandoEFC+]

He's gone.

[Stan]

Good riddance!

[CaaC (John)+]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

He's gone.

 

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Good riddance!

[Stan]

This was so powerful, so good

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I’m happy to see Trump relegated from President of the United States to just another “Florida Man”

[RandoEFC+]

Being jealous of America if only for a day feels a bit mad as I'd forgotten it was even a thing. I can't even think of another vote since I was really an adult that's gone the way I'd hoped. An election result all the way across the world really shouldn't have a profound effect but I do feel a palpable sense of relief that this chapter in the horror of 2010s politics is over.

[Harry]

 

[Harry]

Not sure if it's just because I have a son but I this photo really hits me in the heart.

It's not as well known as you'd expect the extent of personal loss and devastation that Biden has incurred in his life. I don't personally know anyone who's endured as much grief. It makes him an uncommon leadership figure, and I'd expect that history would shape his decision making, probably for the better.

I wish he was 15 years younger but I'm glad he's president.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Not sure if it's just because I have a son but I this photo really hits me in the heart.

It's not as well known as you'd expect the extent of personal loss and devastation that Biden has incurred in his life. I don't personally know anyone who's endured as much grief. It makes him an uncommon leadership figure, and I'd expect that history would shape his decision making, probably for the better.

I wish he was 15 years younger but I'm glad he's president.

It sickened me when Trump made comments about it at one point. Can't remember what was specifically said but he mocked Biden for it and it was disgusting. 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

It sickened me when Trump made comments about it at one point. Can't remember what was specifically said but he mocked Biden for it and it was disgusting. 

Maybe the bit in the debate where he mentioned beau and Trump tried to turn it into an attack on Hunter...?

I never heard of Trump going after him about the car crash and the death of his wife and daughter. That would be a low even for Trump

[JoshBRFC+]

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Nixon got away with committing crimes in office. Then George W Bush commit war crimes, set the foundation for ISIS... and nothing happened.

Then America had Trump committing what feels like crimes on a daily basis...

I really, really hope America ends its tradition of not prosecuting presidents.

Also I’m not really surprised... because it’s Trump. But turns out the Trump administration had no plan whatsoever in rolling out the COVID vaccine: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-biden-admin-discovers-trump-had-zero-plans-for-covid-vaccine-distribution - which probably isn’t illegal, but it is a huge disgrace. The fucker wanted 4 more years without doing anything for the country, just grifting to put taxpayer money into his pocket.

[Stan]

Ted Cruz can't be this dense, surely?! 

I dread to think what he believes the Treaty of Versailles or The Geneva Convention is... 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Ted Cruz can't be this dense, surely?! 

I dread to think what he believes the Treaty of Versailles or The Geneva Convention is... 

 

He’s a Harvard Law Grad, he’s not this stupid. His voters are though so he’s got to appeal to them.

The GOP base reacts well to fear of others and outrage. So here he can say this is a president reflecting European values and putting non-Americans first. That checks both boxes to a lot of these people.

He knows what he’s doing. The Republican base has been carefully cultivated to react to this kind of rhetoric - he’s just pandering to that base now because he’s getting a lot of heat for his part in inciting the riots and probably lost a lot of moderate support.

He’s got presidential ambitions. He can’t win that nomination without trying to shepherd Trump’s flock.

Until the voters feel some sort of sting for snubbing reality, they’ll continue to reward slime like Ted Cruz. Similar to the Tory stranglehold on UK government, despite a decade of failure. They keep doing a shit job, they keep getting elected to run the country.