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The culture war

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I meant to start a topic in the last place but as we've abandoned Trudeau's forum here goes. 

Certainly in America and Western Europe there's a cultural movement afoot, and I don't just mean the Alt-Right. I certainly think we've swung to the right a bit, but the biggest thing is how quickly the power has shifted to social media from mainstream media.

It was noticeable during Brexit & Trump, characters like Sargon of Akkad, Milo, Paul Joseph Watson, That Guy T, Mike Cernovich, Lauren Southern hold huge cultural influence now. The majority seem to be right in there message, Sargon & That guy tend to be left/centre but aside from that lefties are thin on the ground. Anyone else following it?

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26 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I meant to start a topic in the last place but as we've abandoned Trudeau's forum here goes. 

Certainly in America and Western Europe there's a cultural movement afoot, and I don't just mean the Alt-Right. I certainly think we've swung to the right a bit, but the biggest thing is how quickly the power has shifted to social media from mainstream media.

It was noticeable during Brexit & Trump, characters like Sargon of Akkad, Milo, Paul Joseph Watson, That Guy T, Mike Cernovich, Lauren Southern hold huge cultural influence now. The majority seem to be right in there message, Sargon & That guy tend to be left/centre but aside from that lefties are thin on the ground. Anyone else following it?

Too many people jumping on bandwagons on certain things and using the uncontrolled media sources to get their point across.

 

Regarding the changes that sparked all this is very deep in America and Europe and its more of a shift in power, due to social media and Internet by people now able to find out more things on how the World is run then just by the past getting fed bollocks to them by their News channels which are controlled by the Governments and elite which was in the past.    People want to take control back and also the Establishments who are controlled by the Global elite are losing their control, The Council of 13, Illuminate and the Bilderberg group  that is why they are doing this Anti trump campaign through their news networks as well as the delaying of Brexit and the brain washed side of the public are protesting as its a popular thing to do.     I like to know what happens in The Netherlands if Geert Wilders does win the elections this month, the same kind of responce and the split of people.  Soon their will be a war as we have seen the bitter feuds going on about the 2 big changes of trump and Brexit, As France, Germany elections are also coming up. 

Edited by VanPanna

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The CIA can't read my mind if I don't have any thoughts. Checkmate, bipartisans. 

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Being in a country where Marxists held an unquestionable hold over politics, academia and news for the past 60 or so years since our independence, I am glad with the swing of things. In USA or UK you have media with open affiliations. In India they claim(ed) to be neutral and are shamelessly left leaning. But now we are seeing the rise of a lot of right leaning (balanced or tabloid-y) outlets. I am glad for it, because you need all kinds of voices in a democracy, and allow the audience to make his/her opinion.

 

Speaking on whole world, then yes I am pleased with new kinds of news/opinion makers. The internet is largely to thank for it, because in the past we would have never heard the alternate voice. The reaction from the other side on simply being challenged is hysterical to say the least. The whole 'how dare they question us' attitude is still alive and kicking. And they haven't learned their lessons, considering what is happening on Twitter with the whole banning and shadow banning of handles or tweets. It wont work. In the larger scheme of things I am loving the fact that both right and left can have an (equal) say in things now. I mean, especially in countries like mine.

 

On a side note, if anyone wants to follow alternate voices (not necessarily right) then Eva Bartlett is a brilliant journalist to follow on the Syrian war. Recently I have been impressed with Tim Pool and have been following his new assignment in Sweden.

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It's a fairly similar cycle;

15-20 years :economic system presides which inherently breeds more and more inequality but largely seems to produce growth and is fairly stable.

2-3 years: Said Economic system crashes, those at the bottom feel the pressure more while those near the top retain their privilege

3-4 years: The economic system recovers somewhat but with the memory of the economic crash fresh in the minds, those towards the top feel insecure and get behind somebody who can blame other issues, issues which appeal to emotion rather than logic...

Nothing with the inherent system changes, the environment it operates in. Makes me laugh that people think this supposed 'left' has had any input in anything, in the West in the left has been dead for a generation. The end of the USSR was a victory for many things but sadly it closed down many genuine socialist organisations. We're now in a farcical situation where essentially arch-Capitalists are being called 'lefties' for expressing essentially liberal opinions.

Personally I've lost interest in it all, nothing ever changes. I'll hope we avoid the darkest of possible futures and that my family and friends aren't effected too badly by the laughable course Britain is fumbling around trying to take but I'm past debating anything, it seems people can air opinions without facts or reasoning and be taken seriously. When those who shout loudest are in control it's best to just let them shout themselves hoarse.

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17 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I meant to start a topic in the last place but as we've abandoned Trudeau's forum here goes. 

Certainly in America and Western Europe there's a cultural movement afoot, and I don't just mean the Alt-Right. I certainly think we've swung to the right a bit, but the biggest thing is how quickly the power has shifted to social media from mainstream media.

It was noticeable during Brexit & Trump, characters like Sargon of Akkad, Milo, Paul Joseph Watson, That Guy T, Mike Cernovich, Lauren Southern hold huge cultural influence now. The majority seem to be right in there message, Sargon & That guy tend to be left/centre but aside from that lefties are thin on the ground. Anyone else following it?

The nationalistic fervor displayed in the States and Europe is something of considerable concern. It's bred a culture of misinformation and anti-intellectualism. 

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48 minutes ago, Batard said:

The nationalistic fervor displayed in the States and Europe is something of considerable concern. It's bred a culture of misinformation and anti-intellectualism. 

There is nothing with nationalism that doesn't border or tread into jingoism or fascism. Nationalism is on the rise due to a decrease in 'national borders' that make it so people can move freely in and out of nations this is turn creates a feeling of dilution in 'unique culture'. Change brings about fear and 'diversifying' a culture too quickly and too much will only trigger people buckling down on their beliefs. It's a fact that when people are presented with facts or opinions that are contrary to their own, their response to double down on their beliefs and create a stronger wall of mental gymnastics. 

Stateside there is an almost '1984'  esque mantra repeated by everything from private institutions and the government; 'diversity is our strength', 'America is a nation of immigrants'. I seem to recall one of the core philosophical concepts of any 'warfare'  to be 'divide and conquer'. How can a collective be strong when one force pulls north and the other south? Intrinsic cultural, religious and moral differences are the ultimate weapon for a predator to divide and conquer. 'They act differently to us, obviously they are the problem'. 'The 1% are the cause of our nation's problems, redistribute wealth!' 'Their god commands them to kills us, they are the enemy!'. 

It's hard enough to keep Europe under the thumb of peace and Europe shares a long rich history with shared cultures, religions, languages and heritage; just imagine how hard it is to reign in people that are from polarising ends of a spectrum. A village halved between German Protestants and Austrian Catholics will have a better chance of mutual cooperation than a village halved between Spanish Catholics and Afghani Shi'ites. That being said the dual nature of Christianity and Islam poses are significant hurdle, I'd wager a village of English Protestants will have a much better time with Jains from India than Muslims from Pakistan.

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There are a lot of good leftists out there on social media but their followings are low in comparison to the right wing alternatives.

The reason being that you can't make a left wing argument in 140 characters but you sure as hell can make a right wing one.

 

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25 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

There are a lot of good leftists out there on social media but their followings are low in comparison to the right wing alternatives.

The reason being that you can't make a left wing argument in 140 characters but you sure as hell can make a right wing one.

 

I completely disagree. You can do both. 

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights is against American liberty guaranteed by the constitution'.

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights protects religious tradition and moral values.'

 

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It's just the left has become the default of the last decade; that means that right commentators that are becoming popular are in fact the counters. It'll happen again in a decade when right because the norm and left becomes the counter.

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1 hour ago, Spike said:

I completely disagree. You can do both. 

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights is against American liberty guaranteed by the constitution'.

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights protects religious tradition and moral values.'

 

No one is generating attention with boring tweets like that :ph34r: 

People are getting great circulation through hard hitting comments and pictures on immigration and islam designed to hit the sweet spot of right wing instinct. 

The left can only virtue signal in 140 characters which is why the left on social media that compete with the right we are discussing is the celebrity left. The other thing that does ok among the left tends to be "isn't this <insert poverty or inequality stat> awful". There is no economically literate 140 character solution you can offer to the greatest concern of left wing people, so how can you galvanize them? In 140 characters you can offer hard right wing solutions to immigration and islam of great concern to many on the right. You most certainly can't make the left wing argument against immigration in 140 characters and still preserve left wing or at least non right wing identity. Sargon of Akkad has this problem a lot.

What people like Paul Joseph Watson tweet half the time requires no processing, it feeds solely off instinct and is often twisted words to hit that right wing sweetspot, to feed bias and feed the solution he craves, if you have an instinct that matches then JACKPOT, retweet galore, word spread, followership growth.

The problem the left has is that celebrities are the only ones with online traction. This is a problem because many celebrities are idiots. People like Lily Allen are making things WORSE for the left not better.

Immigration and Islam are real simpleton instinct topics no matter where on the spectrum you are, they are based on individual world views. Central banking reform on the other hand...

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6 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

No one is generating attention with boring tweets like that :ph34r: 

People are getting great circulation through hard hitting comments and pictures on immigration and islam designed to hit the sweet spot of right wing instinct. 

The left can only virtue signal in 140 characters which is why the left on social media that compete with the right we are discussing is the celebrity left. The other thing that does ok among the left tends to be "isn't this <insert poverty or inequality stat> awful". There is no economically literate 140 character solution you can offer to the greatest concern of left wing people, so how can you galvanize them? In 140 characters you can offer hard right wing solutions to immigration and islam of great concern to many on the right. You most certainly can't make the left wing argument against immigration in 140 characters and still preserve left wing or at least non right wing identity. Sargon of Akkad has this problem a lot.

What people like Paul Joseph Watson tweet half the time requires no processing, it feeds solely off instinct and is often twisted words to hit that right wing sweetspot, to feed bias and feed the solution he craves, if you have an instinct that matches then JACKPOT, retweet galore, word spread, followership growth.

The problem the left has is that celebrities are the only ones with online traction. This is a problem because many celebrities are idiots. People like Lily Allen are making things WORSE for the left not better.

Immigration and Islam are real simpleton instinct topics no matter where on the spectrum you are, they are based on individual world views. Central banking reform on the other hand...

The left does the exact same thing except they feed off emotions and identity politics. Both sides are pretty much the same, I'm the same, you're the same; our own cognitive bias blinds us from seeing it. PJW is just a fear monger that is obsessed with SJW, PC, and the MAINSTAREEM METEOR. He probably has some interesting opinions and facts to offer but they are dripping with a bias that isn't admitted, just like leftists like Bill Nye. However you cannot ignore companies like Buzzfeed that fellate people like Justin Trudeau because he 'sexy'. These groups are very insular are they aren't open for debate, the target a certain demographic and inside that demographic a circle jerk happens over how 'superior' they are to the other.

 

Image may contain: 2 people

 

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44 minutes ago, Spike said:

The left does the exact same thing except they feed off emotions and identity politics. Both sides are pretty much the same, I'm the same, you're the same; our own cognitive bias blinds us from seeing it. PJW is just a fear monger that is obsessed with SJW, PC, and the MAINSTAREEM METEOR. He probably has some interesting opinions and facts to offer but they are dripping with a bias that isn't admitted, just like leftists like Bill Nye. However you cannot ignore companies like Buzzfeed that fellate people like Justin Trudeau because he 'sexy'. These groups are very insular are they aren't open for debate, the target a certain demographic and inside that demographic a circle jerk happens over how 'superior' they are to the other.

 

Image may contain: 2 people

 

 

That's all true but my point was not that the people are different in that sense. It was that the difference in the success that fairy in boots was talking about comes from the interaction between the idea/ideology and Twitter being more successful than other ideas interacting with twitter or on other mediums. 

In another medium you could say John Oliver's success comes from his deliberately fast delivery with sweet spot punch lines thrown in to get likes and viewers. Thats the style for that medium, it doesnt have the same effect if you reduce it to 140 characters people read at their own pace. 

We live in the age of internet narcissism. We are adjusting our language and behaviour to get likes and retweets and its success is mainly in that adjustment and not in the content of our words.

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14 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

There are a lot of good leftists out there on social media but their followings are low in comparison to the right wing alternatives.

The reason being that you can't make a left wing argument in 140 characters but you sure as hell can make a right wing one.

 

You're talking about Twitter though, YouTube and Facebook aren't 140 characters. That Guy T is left/centre and I think exclusively Facebook. Sargon of Akkad is left/ centre and YouTube he savages the young Turks (who're just everything I despise about the left) as well as "they're turning the frogs gay" Alex Jones. 

I think the problem is a lot of Leftists aren't as smart as they think they're and they buckle under half decent debate. 

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57 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You're talking about Twitter though, YouTube and Facebook aren't 140 characters. That Guy T is left/centre and I think exclusively Facebook. Sargon of Akkad is left/ centre and YouTube he savages the young Turks (who're just everything I despise about the left) as well as "they're turning the frogs gay" Alex Jones. 

I think the problem is a lot of Leftists aren't as smart as they think they're and they buckle under half decent debate. 

The left is doing ok on YouTube and Facebook. It's only Twitter where it is coming up short.

The young turks have millions  of YouTube subscribers, the likes of Jimmy Dore and the artist taxi driver are getting tens of thousands of hits on their videos, but they struggle to get over 50 retweets whereas Paul Joseph Watson is able to generate hundreds and sometimes thousands of retweets by using language that gets people bouncing up and down on their computer chairs and passing it around.

The left has a mobilisation and marketing problem on twitter. It doesn't elsewhere. Cracking Twitter would fuel momentum and mobilisation on YouTube come election time. 

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2 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

The left is doing ok on YouTube and Facebook. It's only Twitter where it is coming up short.

The young turks have millions  of YouTube subscribers, the likes of Jimmy Dore and the artist taxi driver are getting tens of thousands of hits on their videos, but they struggle to get over 50 retweets whereas Paul Joseph Watson is able to generate hundreds and sometimes thousands of retweets by using language that gets people bouncing up and down on their computer chairs and passing it around.

The left has a mobilisation and marketing problem on twitter. It doesn't elsewhere. Cracking Twitter would fuel momentum and mobilisation on YouTube come election time. 

The Young Turks get trolled so hard though and they're just making so many schoolboy errors they've become a bit of a joke. Darkening Sean Kings complection was hilarious, please tell me you've seen the Q&A where the student asks why they're named after a regime that committed genocide. The attempt to shut the shit down still has me howling to this day. They full on lost their shit in 2016 and have suffered for it. 

In fairness you probably have a valid point about twitter not being a great platform for left arguments. However I think lefties in general are in retreat on other formats. As alluded to above they just double down on complete crap, I think a lot of those who've been held up as champions of thought often because of who or what they are instead of what they contribute is a problem. Case in point are retards like Lilly Allen it's too easy for the likes of Paul Joseph Watson to destroy. 

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I think you can't intellectually crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women in 140 characters.

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Political discourse on social media has gotten ridiculous in my eyes. There is so much total bullshit everywhere and things like Twitter have made "sound bite politics" much worse. And memes and trolling seem to have been a huge part in political discourse on things like reddit and twitter... and let's be honest... that's just fucking stupid. Complicated views are being watered down and simplified to the point of meaninglessness. And there is so much obvious bullshit out there that is getting digested by people as factual when it really isn't. We're at a point where emotions and feelings hold equal weight to facts, even if facts are in dead opposition to them. It's ironic because all of the information in the world is at our fingertips. But on the other hand there's so much disinformation too.

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On 06/03/2017 at 8:12 PM, Spike said:

I completely disagree. You can do both. 

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights is against American liberty guaranteed by the constitution'.

'Trump's new legislation on sexual rights protects religious tradition and moral values.'

 

How is that anything to do with being left-wing? 

Social liberalism is not left-wing politics.

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7 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

How is that anything to do with being left-wing? 

Social liberalism is not left-wing politics.

What? It entirely is a part of left-wing politics. The definition of Social Liberalism is the government provided health care, anti-poverty measures, and education. While maintaining a level of social freedom like pro-choice, LGBT rights and female rights.

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3 minutes ago, Spike said:

What? It entirely is a part of left-wing politics. The definition of Social Liberalism is the government provided health care, anti-poverty measures, and education. While maintaining a level of social freedom like pro-choice, LGBT rights and female rights.

It maybe how you define it and how it's been allowed to be defined by many people across the broad centre ground, but real left-wing politics is nothing of the sort. 'Anti-poverty measures' sounds like some sort of charity gig, I don't see Lenin harping on about 'anti-Poverty measures',.

Left-wing politics are, or should be, about revolutionary eradication of a class system which still exists, not token gestures in terms of reforming capitalism. There has not been a properly left-wing government in the Western world ever.

Your class and economic status is the ONLY thing of importance in the eyes of a Marxist. Now I'm not against people campaigning for social rights, but they're a separate thing, most people campaigning for gay rights etc are socially liberal but ultimately economically conservative. People in the West are ultimately afraid of economic change, the identity protest stuff is an irrelevance, your view of our how our economic relations should be defined is all that matters.

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10 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

It maybe how you define it and how it's been allowed to be defined by many people across the broad centre ground, but real left-wing politics is nothing of the sort. 'Anti-poverty measures' sounds like some sort of charity gig, I don't see Lenin harping on about 'anti-Poverty measures',.

Left-wing politics are, or should be, about revolutionary eradication of a class system which still exists, not token gestures in terms of reforming capitalism. There has not been a properly left-wing government in the Western world ever.

Your class and economic status is the ONLY thing of importance in the eyes of a Marxist. Now I'm not against people campaigning for social rights, but they're a separate thing, most people campaigning for gay rights etc are socially liberal but ultimately economically conservative. People in the West are ultimately afraid of economic change, the identity protest stuff is an irrelevance, your view of our how our economic relations should be defined is all that matters.

You're taking left-wing politics to the extreme. It's a spectrum of degrees; two things can both be considered left-wing yet have nothing in common. In America; it is considered a left-wing practise for the government to provide for people; welfare, free-education, free healthcare, subsidies, and so on and so forth. An American left method would to reduce the inequality in the black neighbourhood by increasing black welfare to even the playing field and ensure they have the oppurtunities that everyone else recieves (whether this is or isn't effective is a different debate). Whereas the right would eradicate welfare to prioritise self-determination and incentivise the entrepreneur; creating a flourish or die environment where those that help themselves stand above the others. I feel like both (especially in America) want to create an environment of social mobility but the key difference is one of semantics: everyone can be rich versus anyone can be rich.

Marxism is a left ideology but the left isn't inherently Marxist. If I recall correctly the terms 'left' and 'right' existed before Marxism. I'm of the opinion even if people all existed within the same social class and economic class then a 'class hierarchy' would simply manifest itself in a different manner.

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19 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

 

Extreme left-wing politics is the only kind, anyone else is essentially an enabler of the current system...

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1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Extreme left-wing politics is the only kind, anyone else is essentially an enabler of the current system...

Did you mean to quote yourself? xD Anyway, I can understand your perspective but I hope it doesn't come to any extreme. We all know of the horror that has happened when nations have tried to become a Marxist state.

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5 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Extreme left-wing politics is the only kind, anyone else is essentially an enabler of the current system...

😂 I just know you were a militant communist at some point in your youth. 

Minor point but Sweden has/is pretty left wing and has been for some time. They're classed as western. 

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On 3/6/2017 at 1:50 AM, Fairy In Boots said:

It was noticeable during Brexit & Trump, characters like Sargon of Akkad, Milo, Paul Joseph Watson, That Guy T, Mike Cernovich, Lauren Southern hold huge cultural influence now. The majority seem to be right in there message, Sargon & That guy tend to be left/centre but aside from that lefties are thin on the ground. Anyone else following it?

Most of those guys are simply edgy libertarians. Particularly idiots like Paul Joseph Watson are useless because they can't move past this maligned "INTOLERANT LEFTISTS" rhetoric. And don't even get me started on Milo Pedopoulos.

At the same time, the classic socialism of the '80s is dead, with most leftists now embracing EU, NATO, and with that, globalism and 'invade-the-world-invite-the-world' foreign policy.

Even the so-called 'counter-cultural' alternatives that are out there are largely useless because they focus on defending the "Western world" and its values (hyper-individualist hedonism). Anyone who claims to be against the status quo but is not at the same time explicitly against the West as a geopolitical entity is working to preserve what he claims to hate, while contributing to the distruction of what he claims to love. A figure like Paul Joseph Watson is pro-capitalism, pro-Israel, pro-Western hegemony, and any edgy opinions he has on Islam don't discount the fact that his vision is profoundly pro-establishment.

In short, if you claim to be counter-cultural but prefer your Pinochet to your Castro because "muh gommies out of helicopters xDDDD", you are simply another paper tiger. I'll take an old-school communist over an alt-righter with an anime avatar any day.

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Paul Joseph Watson is a moron.

I actually saw a couple of his tweets retweeted and then followed him since I quite liked them, and then I realised he just claws in bitter idiots with meaningless sound bites and paranoid ramblings.

The fact that he shared that photo of the woman wearing a niqab walking by the Westminster victim with the caption "says it all" shows that he's just an attention whore with no intellectual substance. 

Im glad I had realised my mistake and unfollowed him well before that. 

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I love the way people just come out with "he's a moron" as if they're making a contentious statement. He's an agrophobic member of Alex Jones crowd. Some of his videos are funny at times but like Jones he seems to think his own voice somehow validates the stuff he's saying. Can't deny he wields considerable influence though. 

Did anybody watch that video I put up, I find the mass demonitisation of YouTube quite disturbing 

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