Donald Trump

[Honey Honey]

The conspiracy crowd thought because the majority of the political elite and the media opposed Donald Trump that it was evidence of collusion and a conspiracy. 100 days into Trump administration and you see the workings of a conspiracy at play as Trump hasn't delivered what the elite didn't want, now the conspiracy crowd think someone's got to him, it must be because someone has got to Trump or because Trump was a lizard all along.

But it's in the conviction of the belief that is is going on that is all about eradicating ambiguity to make sense of the world.

There are other perfectly credible possibilities, that the first 100 days are symptomatic of electing a 3rd party President without the actual party, or that Trump was all over the place and held inconsistent views, that Trump was just repugnant to an elite class all along, but to believe a conspiracy requires rejecting all other hypothesis regardless and analysing everything from the starting position that there is a conspiracy going on. Thus the conspiracy can never be disproven to its believer, therefore there is actually no point talking to them.

The JFK conspiracies are a brilliant example of people being all over the place in their thinking. Let's entertain that there was conspiracy going on. Now imagine the truth got out. That would mean dozens and dozens and dozens of conspiracies would be wrong. Without a shred of self awareness many of those conspiracy theorists would fail to change their mind but would start adopting the position that the updated truth is part of the conspiracy. That it is what they want you to know because you are getting close. To distract you. Conspiracy theories can dangerously warp the mind.

This is exactly what has been happening in holocaust denial groups for the last 40 years. Historical revisionism by scholars and scientists is met as part of the conspiracy rather than a natural part of the scholarly process. 

When someone thinks any emerging evidence contrary to their conspiracy is part of the conspiracy they are too far gone in the fog to be retrieved.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, 6666 said:

The moon landing was also fake but that reptilian Dr. Gonzo probably wants everyone to think otherwise.

 

3 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Flat earth denying Dr Gonzo is an alien being and a pawn of the Rothschild family posing as a doctor of historical scholarship and science to discredit the truth.

Shhhh!

In any case, what a hilarious turn for this thread. I think Harvey sums up their mentality well though.

I wonder if there's anything that can be done for the lost causes, or if they're just lost forever.

[Dr. Gonzo]

And not that it's important but I think the CIA kiled JFK.

But more importantly I think Fairy in Boot's idea for a conspiracy thread is a bad one. It will only invite more extremist weirdos trying to indoctrinate. They already have many places to discuss on the internet, let's keep them out of here.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

The conspiracy crowd thought because the majority of the political elite and the media opposed Donald Trump that it was evidence of collusion and a conspiracy. 100 days into Trump administration and you see the workings of a conspiracy at play as Trump hasn't delivered what the elite didn't want, now the conspiracy crowd think someone's got to him, it must be because someone has got to Trump or because Trump was a lizard all along.

But it's in the conviction of the belief that is is going on that is all about eradicating ambiguity to make sense of the world.

There are other perfectly credible possibilities, that the first 100 days are symptomatic of electing a 3rd party President without the actual party, or that Trump was all over the place and held inconsistent views, that Trump was just repugnant to an elite class all along, but to believe a conspiracy requires rejecting all other hypothesis regardless and analysing everything from the starting position that there is a conspiracy going on. Thus the conspiracy can never be disproven to its believer, therefore there is actually no point talking to them.

The JFK conspiracies are a brilliant example of people being all over the place in their thinking. Let's entertain that there was conspiracy going on. Now imagine the truth got out. That would mean dozens and dozens and dozens of conspiracies would be wrong. Without a shred of self awareness many of those conspiracy theorists would fail to change their mind but would start adopting the position that the updated truth is part of the conspiracy. That it is what they want you to know because you are getting close. To distract you. Conspiracy theories can dangerously warp the mind.

This is exactly what has been happening in holocaust denial groups for the last 40 years. Historical revisionism by scholars and scientists is met as part of the conspiracy rather than a natural part of the scholarly process. 

When someone thinks any emerging evidence contrary to their conspiracy is part of the conspiracy they are too far gone in the fog to be retrieved.

You could well be right on Trump in the end, I certainly think many of the republicans are actively working against him on certain issues. It could just be that the realities of the position cause you to recalculate what your original position was. I remember interviews with George Bush that he went back on post 9/11. I was hugely disappointed with his decision to bomb Syria because I'm of the opinion that Assad is the key to peace. Trump was consistent on Syria pre presidency and it was my main reason for half backing him. 

I try to be open and willing to alter my view if I'm presented with a different opinion as I take the attitude that an argument will prove itself through scrutiny. It's why I find the dismissal of conspiracy in the school boy attitude of sniggering a bit silly, given those doing it are posting as with a certain degree of arrogance about it. Let's be fair people originally talking about MK Ultra and the like would have been dismissed as nutters. The smart thing is to assess the information given and then make a decision.

Regarding evidence that conflicts, that's a social construct through the Internet age. Google, YouTube, Facebook, twitter it's all built on algorithms that find similar media to what a person has already searched for and consumed and push like minded content front and centre. I lean right of centre, I have to force myself to look at conflicting info all the time save just spouting shite (or at least more than normal). 

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

And not that it's important but I think the CIA kiled JFK.

But more importantly I think Fairy in Boot's idea for a conspiracy thread is a bad one. It will only invite more extremist weirdos trying to indoctrinate. They already have many places to discuss on the internet, let's keep them out of here.

If that's the way you guys feel fair enough, personally I think if someone is spouting this or that theory the best thing to do is pick it apart otherwise not engaging and just labelling them idiots just helps their cause. Take Holocaust denial, I didnt think it was questioned as much, I'll eventually go down that rabbit hole and make up my mind on it. I know the version that is accepted as the norm but the first casualty of war is the truth and the winner writes the story. I still think Jews would have got a pretty rough deal out of it and we're certainly persecuted but to what level I'll find out I guess. Way down my list of priorities though I'm looking into economics lots at present because I'm ignorant I think. 

Edit: I've seen we have a thread

[Vegan Kel]

And I thought these mongs chatted shit about Islam... fuck sake

[Vegan Kel]

20 hours ago, Harry said:

Trump would potentially agree with Kel. With his security clearances he does have the government documents that would irrefutably proove the claims false but then he did hear an opinion to the contrary on info wars so who knows what to believe...?

 

Yea, Trump's definitely an anti-zionist isn't he? 

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, Salford Kel said:

And I thought these mongs chatted shit about Islam... fuck sake

To be honest save the actual Muslim members I don't think any of them think it's a religion of peace anymore. They all pretty much agree it needs reform to peacefully coexist with the west. 

Whether that will happen is another conversation but I think the argument of is it peaceful or not is done now. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

So getting back to Trump:

He's taken a big beating on Friday, when Congress passed the budget (only lasting until the end of the US government's fiscal year, so until September) they increased funding for the National Institute of Health by $2B (when Trump wanted it cut), protected funding for Planned Parenthood (although they don't perform abortions with federal funding), a permanent extension of health care for coal miners (largely a group of idiots who voted for Trump in droves, then sat dismayed as he proposed policies and budget cuts directly harmful to them... and still support him despite this).

It appears as though House and Senate Republicans had more in common with the Democrats when it came to delivering for their constituents than Trump and the Freedom Caucus (aka, the Tea Party, aka the American Taliban/Y'all Qaeda/Vanilla ISIS - take your pick). And now it looks as though the new healthcare bill, the GOP's second go reducing the number of people in America who can see a doctor, is close to failing in the House. One Congressman from Nevada (Mark Amoedei - a Republican) said, "Seriously, you want me to go back and tell the people in my fourth of Nevada [his district] 'the Senate will make it better? What the hell?" Because Paul Ryan and the GOP are trying to pass an incredibly unpopular law with most voters, and getting other Congressman to vote on it by saying "don't worry, the Senate will make this bill a lot less terrible."

But in response to the Trump budget, 5 days ago he tweeted: "As families prepare for summer vacations in our National Parks - Democrats threaten to close them and shut down the government. Terrible!" the man has now said the "US needs a good shutdown!" So some hilarious hypocrisy that might get another politician some serious flak, but because Trump has been so outrageous throughout campaigning and so wildly incompetent, it's just another day with him in charge.

The man also wants to continue his attacks on the American free press by gutting the first Amendment, wants widespread constitution reform so that the checks and balances (a cornerstone of the American federal political system) don't stop him from exercising widespread and unchecked power, and just today his press secretary Baghdad Sean Spicer said that White House ethics questions should be outsourced to the Trump Organization  - which is a baffling statement.

I'm glad that Congress at least has listened to their constituents, because let's not forget that Trump did lose the popular vote. And the Senators and Congressman are right to not go along with his agenda at the expense of the people who voted them into office. But I am worried by Trump's childish reaction to all of this. particularly considering his attacks on fundamental principles of the American government and his recent praise of Erdogan's consolidation of power. But I take comfort in the fact that it seems like there is strong resistance to his dangerous policies from both sides of the American political spectrum.

And in Trump advisor news: Jared Kushner didn't disclose his business ties with Peter Thiel, Goldman Sachs, or... George fucking Soros (I can only imagine the mental gymnastics the alt-right will have to pull to be okay with that!) or the fact he owes $1b in loans on his financial disclosures. More ethical questions for this administration to answer (which they won't unless this is formally investigated).

And on May 8th, Sally Yates, who was fired for coming forward with the news that she had warned the administration of Michael Flynn's foreign ties and causing the Russian/Turkish agent to resign from the administration in disgrace... is going to testify before Congress. Almost a month after Republicans blocked her from testifying. Get the popcorn ready.

[Kowabunga]

Donald Trump has fired FBI Director James Comey. Poor sod. He had it comeying. He only had himself to blame.

[Honey Honey]

Fire someone investigating you and replace them with your own choice of investigator 

[DeadLinesman]

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

I don't know if Futurama does an accurate impression but NIXONS BACK ARRROOOOOOO.

Trump looks guilty as fuck now and if there is no special prosecutor and we are to trust Trump's new director, then I suppose Republicans have less integrity than they did in the 70s.

[Toinho]

Wow.

[Dr. Gonzo]

The FBI has just raided a GOP consulting firm with ties to Manafort & Stone.

[Harry]

On 2017-5-10 at 11:11 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't know if Futurama does an accurate impression but NIXONS BACK ARRROOOOOOO.

Trump looks guilty as fuck now and if there is no special prosecutor and we are to trust Trump's new director, then I suppose Republicans have less integrity than they did in the 70s.

This is a key question. I don't think there's any doubt that its the case unfortunately. I don't think there's anything Mitch McConnell wouldn't to for party over country. 

[Harry]

On 2017-5-10 at 4:53 PM, DeadLinesman said:

5 reasons the current russia issue is worse than watergate. By a journalist who covered both stories. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/comey-watergate/526443/

[Harry]

There was a time early in his presidency where sacking Comey could have been a good story for trump and something bipartisan off the back of a hugely divisive election.

He allowed the FBI to become a huge contributing factor in an election. His testimony did more than russia imo to sway the polls. National polls moved by comfortably more than the losing margin in Florida, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pensylvania. More than enough to tip the balance. 

[Harry]

Would be interested in what you think about this article FIB?

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721904-impulsiveness-and-shallowness-americas-president-threaten-economy-well-rule

[Panflute]

People still believe the "Trump is a Russian agent" meme?

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, Panflute said:

People still believe the "Trump is a Russian agent" meme?

 It's more his campaign colluded with Russia, there's the bigger question of what Trump knew and when.

You can't really act like there's nothing in it anymore, because there clearly is. From Sessions perjury, to his recusal, to his violation of his recusal, the numerous times the administration has been caught lying about it's pre-election meetings with Russians, to the FBI asking for more resources for their investigation, and then James Comey getting fired. If none of doesn't look suspicious to you, then I don't know what to tell you. And that's a brief rundown of things - the more details you look into, the more suspicious it is.

[Panflute]

Yeah it's real spooky I bet they hacked the election too.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Panflute said:

Yeah it's real spooky I bet they hacked the election too.

Suspiciousness and spookiness are two different things. And unlike Russian interference to the US election, which is not a meme, and something even republican senators and Rex fucking Tillerson (who today commented on Russia's interference) which has a factual basis, there's no evidence they hacked into voting machines to sway the election. What we do know is they've hacked political parties, used proxies like WikiLeaks to release the information and to create false/misleading news stories, and targeted people using similar systems Cambridge Analytica uses (if not using Cambridge Analytica itself).

And unlike the assertion actual voting machines were hacked, there's also evidence that Trump campaign surrogates were not honest with their disclosures or in their confirmation hearings about meetings with top Russian officials and intelligence officers. So much so that there was an ongoing investigation into the Trump campaign.

And it's no surprise that when the person heading that investigation is removed from their job by a person being investigated, that people might find things suspicious.

And the idea the Trump campaign colluded with Russia does not mean Putin is pulling the strings for this administration. The goal could simply be to destabilise the West - which is in step with writings from Russian political scientists. It makes sense to destablise the US and EU politically, if your economy has been strangled by the sanctions placed on you for your invasion of another European country.

Where there is reason to be suspicious and when there has been an ongoing investigation for months that looks like it is being impeded (or attempted to be impeded), there should be no reason to not want the investigation to come to light. If you don't believe the Russians have anything to do with Trump, you should welcome an investigation to vindicate him.

[Panflute]

If those hacks occurred and the Russian government is behind them, then how is the resultant information false? Get your story straight.

[Panflute]

Quote

The goal could simply be to destabilise the West - which is in step with writings from Russian political scientists.

Just fyi the "Dugin is the brains of Putin" story is another meme.

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 minutes ago, Panflute said:

If those hacks occurred and the Russian government is behind them, then how is the resultant information false? Get your story straight.

Pizzagate is a good example. It has fuck all to do with the Russia hacks, but it is a story that was passed around by the same people who passed around that same information. There's also a treasure trove of "fake news" stories that came out pre-election that were simply bullshit about Hillary Clinton. The DNC email hacks (there are also republicans on record of saying they were hacked as well, but the information was not released - compromising information being withheld for blackmail possibly? That would certainly explain the likes of Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul) and fake stories are two separate parts of their campaign. They are linked by: Russians and the internet. And I suppose the fact they were used to sway an election.

 

19 minutes ago, Panflute said:

Just fyi the "Dugin is the brains of Putin" story is another meme.

Dugin is a Russian political scientist, who has served as an advisor to Putin. That's factual, it's not a meme (although memes don't need to be non-factual). Using memes as a way of promoting political ideologies isn't really my style though - that's more something I'd leave to the tards on 4chan or /r/the_donald