UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[The Artful Dodger]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

There are other Labour MPs being touted and talked to right now. Flexibility and consensus is what’s required at this moment.

As for the insults, I’ll just ignore them.

You started with the insults, trying to insinuate it is people like me to blame. You can't absolve yourself with this zealous campaign to Remain now, you voted for this. You are the one to blame.

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

You started with the insults, trying to insinuate it is people like me to blame. You can't absolve yourself with this zealous campaign to Remain now, you voted for this. You are the one to blame.

It’s the fact one can indeed atone, repent, change their mind on something that marks humanity’s better attributes. If we don’t have the capabilities of taking information on board and searching for atonement, then imagine the world!

Take for example people changing the way they lead their lives ever since climate change became an issue. Most if not all were sinners in this sense and now change their ways while those that are activists on the issue search for those that continue to deny climate change’s existence to change their minds. If we’re then to hound those that do change as to how they were once deniers, then how can we advocate the search for change?

I don’t require absolution, I have it upon myself to do everything in my power to adjust to my error in the most positive way which is to show how I was duped so that others can see the truth too.

[RandoEFC+]

The ship has sailed regarding the emergency government anyway. That move was only justifiable as a desperate move to stop Johnson trying to slime through a no deal Brexit like he appeared to be headed for. 

As soon as the EU grant an extension, the opposition parties should accept a general election and go to the polls. Labour haven't done a good job of turning the polls around despite having months to prepare so if they're going to an election without a chance of victory it's their own fault, and it's a bed they'll have to lie in. Too bad the country will suffer as a result but unfortunately that's democracy. Not enough people in this country believe that voting for Labour is to their benefit, which is a major failing on their part when you look at the elitist right-wing Brexervative party they're up against, so Labour won't get into power unless they pull the best election campaign I've seen in my lifetime out of Corbyn's backside.

The Lib Dems don't deserve much credit either. All they've done is claimed the Remain position to gain support of a bunch of MPs and voters whose biggest priority is to support the UK remaining in the EU. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot that there was their only path back to relevance while the Conservative party are trying to deliver on the Leave vote and Labour are treading carefully down the middle. The majority of people voting for Lib Dems in the opinion polls probably don't know the first thing about their policy beyond the fact that they are fighting to Remain.

The only democratic thing to do if the current parliament can't get this deal through the Commons is to have an election and if Labour do manage to form a government somehow then we can have a second referendum perhaps. However, more likely the Tories will gain seats and gain the majority required to eventually get the withdrawal bill through.

And this is coming from someone who voted Remain and Labour at the most recent opportunity and would do again if I was asked tomorrow, and I also actually quite like Corbyn. Sometimes though you just have to let the facts speak for themselves ahead of your own biases.

[Guest]

Hold on @SirBalon you voted leave?

[SirBalon]

53 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Hold on @SirBalon you voted leave?

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

Well that does explain why you are so passionate about getting another vote. So at the time why did you feel it was better to leave? I find it quite interesting to find out what has changed former leavers minds.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

Mate in the future... don't vote on shite that's that important without researching. It's better to not vote than to make an uninformed vote.

Granted, a shitload of people probably voted without being informed. But that's their own fucking fault and the country has to pay for it. But ultimately, the massive and complex impact of Brexit really meant this should have been a decision for our elected representatives (who are supposed to be more informed than the fucking public, but... lol I don't think that's true) rather than the public at large. So... massively irresponsible and stupid from Cameron really, but we all knew that.

7 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Swinson is rotten, she's economically a Tory really, the Lib Dems, including supposedly 'Labour' Berger and Umunna, abstained on an amendment vowing to protect the NHS yesterday. The Lib Dems are vile opportunist party who offer nothing to working class people, every bit as bad as the Tory party.

Lib Dems are the fucking worst. They serve the purpose of sucking away votes from people that rightly dislike tories, but then fall for the bullshit tories and the media push about Labour so they feel they can't vote Labour, so instead they'll vote for lib dems. Who really just serve the economic interests of the tories. And we saw the last time they formed a coalition, lib dems will fucking fold when their ideological positions challenge tory positions - just for a bit of power. Fuck em.

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Well that does explain why you are so passionate about getting another vote. So at the time why did you feel it was better to leave? I find it quite interesting to find out what has changed former leavers minds.

I laugh at how I thought back then these days but I went through auite a traumatic period which even affected my health when I cottoned on to how I had let myself be duped into believing the rhetoric.

What I'm about to write I have to first make a statement that I have never been right-wing inclined at all and infact I would say I have been very apolitical in general where I've voted for almost all the known parties with the Green Party having had my vote the most times. In general I'm not one to be swayed by fanatical thought processes although I don't ignore them because I feel it's important to understand those you find very different to you. They exist and you share your everyday life with all sorts of people and they are there too. I'm a very analytical person but I'm also visceral (unfortunately) and that means I suffer from impulsiveness.

Anyway, here goes...

My sentiments regarding the EU stem from the press and media like I would say practically everyone because I at least don't know anybody that was an expert on thr European Union before the 2016 Referendum although some did know more than others in my group of family, friends, acquaintances and colleagues. At work I have practically every newspaper and magazine known to man delivered daily or monthly depending on how their publication works, this includes stuff from all over the world. So I would literally read some of them which unfortunately included newspapers like The Telegraph and the Mail (never The Sun or the Express mind you)... Everytime and issue would crop up in the news regarding something new on the horizon with the EU I would find that newspapers like The Guardian, The Times (those are the only two I read now) or The Mirror wouldn't have practically anything on that or if it did it would be very little while the aforementioned newspapers would even headline their front page with those stories where I would digest them and make those things my opinion. I remember even giving Angela Merkel a hard time on various occasions back in the old football forum we all used to frequent, something I am now ashamed of in a very dramatic form. It makes me want to vomit even now when I write these words because it all comes back.

Anyhow... Obviously I would totally ignore all the xenophobic stuff papers like the Mail would front line with and that would swith me off where I'd just place the paper back down and choose something else. But I would read other stuff and I would get taken in by it. Stuff relating to the UK not being sovereign was my main issue with it all and I just felt and believed that we were being manipulated against our will where in many occasions I sensed that we had been nullified as a unique country... Not just us, the UK, but all of the EU nations with Germany and Frande calling all the shots. This is what had become my mantra on a ything relating to the European Union... I was a human speaking preacher for scum like Baker's Mail newspaper.

Me being apolitical in general or being very uninterested in general with politics made me an easy victim in this sense due to the fact the EU was becoming more and more of an issue in the news the more the 2016 Referendum drew closer and I was digesting more and more of it to the point family members, friends and colleagues stopped bringing up the subject anywhere near me.

All those people close to me these days tell me that they couldn't believe my stance on the issue back then, that I was a whole different person when the EU cropped up into conversation. For a man like myself that has ALWAYS been inclusive, anti fanatacism, anti extremism, with close longlife friends from all cultures, and religions, a massive supporter of gay rights etc... To have been drawn in by the radical media and press that actually despises all of the things I have always stood for was frankly shocking to the people near me.

When did I find out I had made a massive mistake?

Weeks after the 2016 Referendum I was invited to a book signing at a Waterstones in Central London where a man called James O'brien was also there... I was introduced to him and he inevitably brought up the subject of Brexit where I let slip that I had voted to leave... He knew some of the people I was with and he stood there looking down on me in utter dismay (down on me because the guy is pretty tall) and he said these words; "I find it odd that you're have such friends and that you have made that decision. What's did you base your decision on?" I responded with; "Well information really. Where we all get our info from, newspapers and the news." He laughed and answered; "You're not going to tell me you read the Mail or papers of the ilk are you?", I retorted, "Well yes, well they're the ones that have had the most news on all of what the EU is while the campaigning was going on." and he laughed again while saying; "What about Farage, what about Boris Johnson?" I retorted straight away in a defensive manner... "Oh no!, no way, not them!, it's nothing to do with immigration, nothing at all, infact I'm hoping we can Brexit while keeping Freedom of Movement in something like a Norway+ model". He topped me, told me where to sit and then he turned his talk about the book he was authoring into how people are duped, worst of all, how good people have been made victims of something absolutely terrible that is based on lies and misinformation with a deceptive plan behind it.

At the end of the evening he asked my name and he said he was going to send me something to my work. Two days later I duly recieved a fantastically well written 100 page folio on the facts of what the EU is, where it overlays our lives in terms of regulations we (the UK) have been involved in creating and implementing which are there to protect us in all sorts of ways from work to what we eat and how it's produced to how we have ALWAYS had sovereignty and is now being witnessed by all in Parliament, too much sovereignty if you ask many extremist hardline Brexiters. It had all the questions one could ask answered with quotes and citings of EU written facts that are legislation. In other words we had NEVER been manipulated by the EU and there is nothing in it on what I had been led to believe. Also all the lies told by the leave campaign and funnily enough, lies by the remain campaign which was executed in a dismal fashion.

Anyway mate... I could go in writing here till the cows come home on this. But just to say that I took two weeks leave from work the day after I'd finished reading it all to he on my own in Galicia, northern Spain. My wife and family knew why and I just wanted to reflect on how my person had been conditioned and groomed to believing nonsense. I had participated in making life worse for those I love and am friends with and being how I am, it destroyed me for some time.

Hopefully this goes some way into explaining my now contra character change that some may have witnessed over the last two years or so from the last forum to this. I WILL NOT REST UNTIL I HAVE DONE MY UTMOST TO RIGHT MY PART OF MY WRONG!

[SirBalon]

10 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

Just saw this mate. True, I even said that then. This was an issue for Parliament and if put to a referendum, then there should've bee a margin placed for this to pass as what we have here is a split nation as it's practically half. Anyway... How it came to pass on my leave vote is in my previous post.

[Dr. Gonzo]

You’ve uh just quoted yourself there mate 

[Stan]

14 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

 

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Just saw this mate. True, I even said that then. This was an issue for Parliament and if put to a referendum, then there should've bee a margin placed for this to pass as what we have here is a split nation as it's practically half. Anyway... How it came to pass on my leave vote is in my previous post.

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’ve uh just quoted yourself there mate 

I've missed @SirBalon short posts

[RandoEFC+]

@SirBalon quoting and agreeing with his own post is the greatest evidence yet that this thread is becoming the echo-chamber that @Fairy In Boots calls it .

[SirBalon]

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’ve uh just quoted yourself there mate 

My browser was adjusting to the page and I didn't take notice hahahaha. I was looking to quote you.

[Guest]

@SirBalon for me personally I found it much easier to cut through the leave bullshit than the remain. Don't get me wrong the remain said some bullshit as well but I generally found the leave said alot more. For example I was very aware that we did not put £350 million a week into the EU. Farage admitted that wasn't true after the vote. I was aware Norway were in the single market or customs union (I can't remember which one) so either we would still have freedom or movement or we would not be able to trade on on own) something a lot of people wanted to avoid.

Another big thing for me was I worked as a labourer during the recession. I worked with some agencies. I registered with loads rang them every day. I was able to get work. A lot of the other people who did this were Eastern European. A lot of English people didn't do this. So they blaimed foreigners for taking their jobs but really it was their fault for not trying hard enough to get work. People who did try very hard to get work and worked hard never seemed to blaim foreigners it was always lazy people in my experience. So I think there is also this thing in the UK where we blaim others. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Guest

[SirBalon]

How far back do the Daily Mail's lies, deception and grooming of UK citizens go back?

25 October 1924. The faked  Zinoviev letter was published in Daily Mail. It tried to link the Labour party with a Communist revolution plot.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 23/10/2019 at 09:48, The Artful Dodger said:

What are you a slave master? Who are you to judge anyone's work ethic. 

Lol almost guaranteed you’re a lazy work to rule prickly type

On 24/10/2019 at 17:09, SirBalon said:

Yep I did. I didn’t understand what the EU was and everything that surrounded it. The media had a large part to play on that front and I didn’t take it upon myself to research the intricate ins and outs that membership of the EU means.

Let me add that I was one of those very very very (stress on VERY) rare rare Brexiters that had no issue whatsoever with EU immigration as the laws revolving EU citizens coming to live and work I was fully aware of seeing as my wife is of Italian birth.

Best thing I’ve seen all week

On 24/10/2019 at 17:25, Gunnersauraus said:

Well that does explain why you are so passionate about getting another vote. So at the time why did you feel it was better to leave? I find it quite interesting to find out what has changed former leavers minds.

Lol see below

15 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You’ve uh just quoted yourself there mate 

That explains his actions in this thread, a pure car crash from start to finish

[The Artful Dodger]

Guarantee you're the kind of lad who dresses up in peaky blinder clobber and whose bird fancies any other fella she comes in contact with.

Shall we do the nobhead Nostradamus stuff anymore? You sound like a bad scab, nothing worse than working people slagging off other working people.

Edited October 25, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Guest]

@SirBalon 

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@SirBalon 

I know why you're laughing at that so I would never say you're a bad person for doing so as I have laughed at other things of a similar ilk to this over the past three years. Not just on the radio but also in my everyday life... I've got a number of anecdotes on the streets, especially on public transport that would either make you laugh in hysterics or cringe at what this country has become. But I'm not going to tell them because they're useless to what I and many others want to achieve, infact it works the other way and makes those that continue to lie to themselves hold firmer and in some cases become even more radicalised. Because there is absolutely NOT ONE SINGLE POSITIVE for leaving the EU. This is FACT! Not one! It's all negative and worse, ranging from bad to disastrous depending which field. This with ANY form of Brexit with obviously No Deal being utter chaos but thankfully most of our Parliament by a decent margin aren't that cuntish.

Back to that lady... Don't you feel sorry for her?

Don't you feel like wishing the wankers that over the years have made her feel this way should rot in prison for filling her with lies and deception?

Even when James O'Brien was calmly trying to make her see where she was making a fool of herself with her main point (because the other ones like the Fish and Chips are just plain idiotic) on Wetherspoons, she wasn't actually disagreeing with James even though she did actually say she was. It was worse than that... She couldn't UNDERSTAND what he was saying. Honestly, SHE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND what James O'Brien was infact saying. There was a block in her mind which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with age that would not let her process the simplicity of what he was telling her and that my friend is called CONDITIONING which comes from methods akin to grooming. Indeed nobody shut her in a room and drilled this rhetorical doctrine into her... She was made to feel it has come from freely available information (freely as far as the price of a newspaper) from whatever medium. James O'Brien could've gone on forever and even made it a private conversation so as to not subject her to public ridicule (remember she was the one that called in) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. It's over for her in that sense, she cannot change and I would go so far as to say that if eventually we do leave and things become a lot worse, she will continue to think it's a price worth paying, a price worth paying for what? That's the question! WHAT!

 

[CaaC (John)+]

Brexit: Will the Falkland Islands wildlife suffer?

Squids, penguins and elephant seals.

No, not a scene from a David Attenborough series, but just some of the wildlife that live in the Falkland Islands.

But local conservationists are worried that the Falklands will not have enough resources to protect its environment after the UK leaves the EU.

"We might stop being able to protect the amazing wildlife," Michelle Winnard, a local conservationist, tells Radio 1 Newsbeat.

The Falkland Islands sit in the south-west Atlantic Ocean - and remains the subject of a dispute between Britain and Argentina who fought a war over it in 1982.

It held a referendum in 2013 and opted to remain an overseas UK territory - which means the Falklands are self-governing - but the UK is still responsible for foreign and defence matters.

FULL REPORT

[...Dan]

 

[SirBalon]

56 minutes ago, ...Dan said:

 

Incredible... Read this yesterday afternoon and it beggars belief Labour MPs like Caroline Flint who have been sitting with the ERG at Tufton Street (the far right) want to vote for this amongst other destructive things within that deal.

[SirBalon]

So now that the Lisbon Treaty has been put to bed due to the lies revolving it and the fact it came into effect 2 years ago and what's remaining doesn't effect us... Now they're banging on aboht the milk quotas for all EU farmers that were anolished two years ago.

[Dr. Gonzo]

There’s a new deadline. I wonder when the next deadline will be.

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There’s a new deadline. I wonder when the next deadline will be.

end of January I'd imagine.