UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

7 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

In fairness, this fella is a civil servant so has no political affiliation Did anyone here never break any rules, genuinely? 

The party is an egregious flouting of the rules but it's more the hypocrisy which is the killer, for me anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure I didn't break any rules at all. Might be in the minority but I have more faith in the public than that. To be fair I live in the Isle of Man now and we had a long phase of normal life from summer 2020 until the Kent variant made it over here and we ended up back more in line with the UK, so I didn't have it quite as bad.

If a majority did break the rules, then alright I'll hold my hands up and admit I'm naive but I'm still sure the rule breaking involved meeting family members or a partner or a very close friend in most cases, not holding office parties which were clearly organised in advance and in one case even came with a "leave by the back door" health warning. I still don't think a majority of the public at large were having parties and quizzes of 10-30 people on the regular.

It's also true about many of these incidents being civil servants and not ministers or Tories themselves. You can make an argument about it being a part of a culture that stems from the elected government officials but then I fear we're getting a bit complex for an electorate that largely deals in newspaper headlines and a gut feeling about who they'd quite like to go for a pint with when making decisions that affect their and their children's lives. There's the "I have faith in the public" hypocrisy creeping in on my end anyway . 

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

In fairness, this fella is a civil servant so has no political affiliation Did anyone here never break any rules, genuinely? 

The party is an egregious flouting of the rules but it's more the hypocrisy which is the killer, for me anyway.

I did my best to follow as many of the rules as possible and I know a lot of people who did the same.

[Guest]

I live alone and went and saw someone else who also lived alone. So I did break the rules. However a lot of people live with someone else. It's very hard to be on your own for 3 months. If I lived with someone I wouldn't have done it. I dont feel like that is the same as going to mass gatherings though no where near. In fact I'm pretty certain in the second and third lockdowns people who lived alone were allowed to bubble with one person. So yeah I did break the rules but I think it was understandable. And I've always taken covid seriously. Haven't stopped weiring my mask in public even when we were allowed to 

[The Artful Dodger]

Of course it is, but technically you’re a criminal. The absurdity of it all is Kafkaesque. You can’t control human behaviour to such a degree, the vast majority of people will have broken the rules in some way. 
 

And that’s why an element of society are loving all this. The chance to look down on others is sadly very common to humanity. 
 

Edited December 17, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

They should have provided loopholes such as bubbles and other routes of supporting people who live alone or away from families a lot earlier, for sure. I'm sorry though, this debate is miles apart from the incidents in Downing Street and Whitehall that are currently the hot topic. People who were considered essential workers and were getting human contact every day because they got to go to work in person had less reason, if anything, to need to hold these social gatherings. It's perfectly fair for those of us who had to work from the kitchen table and had minimal human contact for months on end to hold a grievance here. It isn't hypocritical at all to be pissed off at these reports even if you did steal a few sleepovers at your girlfriend's flat or a coffee in your parents' back garden.

[Waylander]

8 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

Such a good bit of shithousery here. 

It's been a while since they had anything to laugh about lets hope they enjoy the moment. 

[The Artful Dodger]

What about the 18-19 year olds having parties? Selfish? Evil, even?

Human behaviour is not the cause of this and human beings are not to blame for a virus. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

What about the 18-19 year olds having parties? Selfish? Evil, even?

Human behaviour is not the cause of this and human beings are not to blame for a virus. 

Are we holding central government and 18 year olds to the same standards now? I know the prime minister is a man baby but come on... most of these top civil servants and government ministers are earning more than enough to be home owners with gardens and loved ones under the same roof. You can't forgive their behaviour because a few teenagers locked up with their parents for months on end snuck off to a park to share a crate with some mates or some young professionals who live alone and work from home and haven't spoken to another human in weeks popped across town to stay with their significant other.

We're talking about the people making and enforcing these laws, gathering in groups of 10-30 people for social events, indoors, during one of the worst phases of the pandemic against all guidance, sometimes premeditated with alibis and lies prepared in advance.

This argument is like going "yeah it's bad that guy robbed a bank but quite a few of my mates shoplifted some coke and Mars bars when we were kids so it's a bit hypocritical to criticise".

[The Artful Dodger]

4 minutes ago, RondónEFC said:

Are we holding central government and 18 year olds to the same standards now? I know the prime minister is a man baby but come on... most of these top civil servants and government ministers are earning more than enough to be home owners with gardens and loved ones under the same roof. You can't forgive their behaviour because a few teenagers locked up with their parents for months on end snuck off to a park to share a crate with some mates or some young professionals who live alone and work from home and haven't spoken to another human in weeks popped across town to stay with their significant other.

We're talking about the people making and enforcing these laws, gathering in groups of 10-30 people for social events, indoors, during one of the worst phases of the pandemic against all guidance, sometimes premeditated with alibis and lies prepared in advance.

This argument is like going "yeah it's bad that guy robbed a bank but quite a few of my mates shoplifted some coke and Mars bars when we were kids so it's a bit hypocritical to criticise".

You're proving my point. It's the 'hypocrisy' which makes this so intolerable, do as I say not as I do etc. You are going to get this when you try to criminalise people for seeing other humans.

The rules were never there to be fully abided by. It's like why they put the speed limit at 30, because they know people will drive at 40 instead of 50. 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Bluewolf]

I think we could spend a lot of time talking about who did what and where they did it but for me it's about setting a positive example for others to follow.. Johnson and his team have set the worst possible example of doing the right thing and when that happens people are not going to abide by the rules at all... During such a long and serious period of disruption for people the world over it would not have been too much to ask that the leader of this country was doing the right thing... 

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, The Artful Dodger said:

You're proving my point. It's the 'hypocrisy' which makes this so intolerable, do as I say not as I do etc. You are going to get this when you try to criminalise people for seeing other humans.

The rules were never there to be fully abided by. It's like why they put the speed limit at 30, because they know people will drive at 40 instead of 50. 

 

I'm really not proving your point. There is absolutely no way that anything like a majority of people committed the egregious rule-breaking that is being reported coming from the heart of government. There is a fucking huge difference between what quite a lot of people might have done in stealing a bit of rare human contact when living alone or living with people they don't really know, or the one which applies to me, being lucky enough to live with friends in a small apartment or house whilst being asked to all work from home living on top of each other 24/7 and resorting to turning your bedroom into an office, and what they've done, which is having premeditated parties with anything between 10 and 30 people, potentially more, when you're already lucky enough to have a job where you can go to your office and get at least a bit of human contact and retain some difference between your home and your workspace, AND have the gall to arrange outside catering, exit strategies and preparing to tell outright lies on camera in the event that you get busted, etc., etc.

I'm not having it mate. I and almost everyone I know lived their lives on the basis of "if everyone did this, would it be okay?" and if the answer was no, it didn't happen. I've admitted it hasn't been quite as hard for me living on the Isle of Man, but I don't think that makes a ground-breaking difference. You're making out as if "criminalising people seeing other humans" is a black and white thing. My parents went round to my blind Nana's house on a number of occasions during lockdowns to change lightbulbs for her or bring her a meal or clearing out a half-dead mouse that her cat brought in. This was technically against the rules. So yeah, my parents "broke the rules". They didn't host a Christmas quiz in their living room with 30 of their best mates though. It's not remotely the same.

If you want to use your speed limit analogy, then alright, probably quite a lot of people drove at 35-40 miles per hour in a 30 zone. These pricks having these "not parties" were coming the other way down the road at 85mph and it's alright to complain about it.

I agree that the hypocrisy is an absolute outrage but I don't agree that if you look past the hypocrisy, what they did was ultimately forgivable. Gathering for catered parties and quizzes that could have easily been done on Zoom doesn't fall into the category of essential human contact that nobody could do without and everyone should be entitled to. These are egregious and selfish breaches of the rules that we were all trying to follow as part of a functioning society that made sacrifices for the greater good of those around us. If a clutch of my friends had organised a sneaky gathering at someone's house that was against the rules I wouldn't have gone so I won't be called a hypocrite for taking a dim view of anyone doing the same, let alone those in government itself.

Other countries honestly look at us these days dumbfounded at reports of what comes out of the UK and how we as the public tolerate this administration and the contempt with which they hold the electorate that for some reason keep voting for them. I would love to know if any of our overseas counterparts who still pain themselves to keep up with this thread have any insight as to what they think of this ongoing story. In some countries you'd get riots and civil unrest outside of Downing Street every day until every single person associated with these parties had packed their bags. Instead here we are having a philosophical debate about whether it would be okay or not if it wasn't so hypocritical. Yet we carry on as if it's totally normal for an unaccountable government appointee to carry out an internal investigation and aren't even surprised that he only recused himself from it when it became public knowledge that he was party to one of these gatherings himself. The fact that he was willing to keep it hidden that he attended one such gathering, and yet was happy to proceed leading the investigation until he got outed by another leak to the press, just goes to show how corrupt the heart of our government is, and how much they think they can continue to get away with even now, and finally, the fact that there isn't even talk of this Simon Case resigning over the fact that he also broke the rules, when he holds a post which requires him to investigate ministers and civil servants to account for these breaches, highlights that us, the public, by and large have just accepted these pitifully low standards of representation and respect from our elected government and civil servants.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Of course it is, but technically you’re a criminal. The absurdity of it all is Kafkaesque. You can’t control human behaviour to such a degree, the vast majority of people will have broken the rules in some way. 
 

And that’s why an element of society are loving all this. The chance to look down on others is sadly very common to humanity. 
 

I broke the law but I didn't have a party mate. I think I have. I think I have more than a right to be mad at them for it. That would be like saying a robber cant be mad at a murderer. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RondónEFC said:

They should have provided loopholes such as bubbles and other routes of supporting people who live alone or away from families a lot earlier, for sure. I'm sorry though, this debate is miles apart from the incidents in Downing Street and Whitehall that are currently the hot topic. People who were considered essential workers and were getting human contact every day because they got to go to work in person had less reason, if anything, to need to hold these social gatherings. It's perfectly fair for those of us who had to work from the kitchen table and had minimal human contact for months on end to hold a grievance here. It isn't hypocritical at all to be pissed off at these reports even if you did steal a few sleepovers at your girlfriend's flat or a coffee in your parents' back garden.

Exactly mate. I cant even believe anyone would suggest that someone who  lives alone and went and saw one other person only because they couldnt handle being on there own for 3 to 4 months is even comparable to what they did.

[The Artful Dodger]

Comparing is not the same as likening. Of course someone throwing a bash is worse but the rules are patently absurd. Depriving people on their death beds of seeing closed loved ones for example. Are the rules proportionate to the threat faced by humanity? I’m not sure they are and given how high the UK’s death toll is, and several other European states who’ve imposed harsh measures, compared to some of those who haven’t, i’m not sure we can even be sure they work.

Like it or not, there is an important question to be asked about balance and offsetting negatives. We’ve reached a point now where it’s make or break. I’m not sure why talking about the ‘economy’ has become some sort of heinous sin for the left, because the economy should the absolute starting point for anyone on the left. Lockdowns are a blunt instrument that largely effect the very poorest. I’ve no time for people in comfy work from home jobs and big  houses clamouring for lockdowns. They don’t feel the cost of them. 

Anyway, it’s too late now.We’ll be back in lockdown for January and this cycle will be repeated ad infinitum. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by The Artful Dodger

[Waylander]

2 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Comparing is not the same as likening. Of course someone throwing a bash is worse but the rules are patently absurd. Depriving people on their death beds of seeing closed loved ones for example. Are the rules proportionate to the threat faced by humanity? I’m not sure they are and given how high the UK’s death toll is, and several other European states who’ve imposed harsh measures, compared to some of those who haven’t, i’m not sure we can even be sure they work.

Like it or not, there is an important question to be asked about balance and offsetting negatives. We’ve reached a point now where it’s make or break. I’m not sure why talking about the ‘economy’ has become some sort of heinous sin for the left, because the economy should the absolute starting point for anyone on the left. Lockdowns are a blunt instrument that largely effect the very poorest. I’ve no time for people in comfy work from home jobs and big  houses clamouring for lockdowns. They don’t feel the cost of them. 

Anyway, it’s too late now.We’ll be back in lockdown for January and this cycle will be repeated ad infinitum. 

I agree with that and think the part in bold is very sad overkill, protective measures could be put in place.

 

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Comparing is not the same as likening. Of course someone throwing a bash is worse but the rules are patently absurd. Depriving people on their death beds of seeing closed loved ones for example. Are the rules proportionate to the threat faced by humanity? I’m not sure they are and given how high the UK’s death toll is, and several other European states who’ve imposed harsh measures, compared to some of those who haven’t, i’m not sure we can even be sure they work.

Like it or not, there is an important question to be asked about balance and offsetting negatives. We’ve reached a point now where it’s make or break. I’m not sure why talking about the ‘economy’ has become some sort of heinous sin for the left, because the economy should the absolute starting point for anyone on the left. Lockdowns are a blunt instrument that largely effect the very poorest. I’ve no time for people in comfy work from home jobs and big  houses clamouring for lockdowns. They don’t feel the cost of them. 

Anyway, it’s too late now.We’ll be back in lockdown for January and this cycle will be repeated ad infinitum. 

I don't disagree with any of this. But I do still have faith that science will eventually win out over this virus and allow us to return to normal again. Our problem at this point in time is we allowed ourselves to believe that vaccination was going to be the end of it. We knew there was a risk of further mutation and that the vaccine wasn't 100% effective in all cases in preventing serious illness or death, but we were too exhausted to psychologically prepare for setbacks like this so it feels like all of the good stuff that's happened over the past year in beating back the pandemic have vanished into thin air.

It's two steps forward, one step back. The cycle will be broken eventually.

[Guest]

A leading government adviser has recommended a lockdown before Christmas

[RandoEFC+]

 

No matter your views on vaccines, lockdowns, masks, etc... these people are demented and terrifying. These sinister catch phrases they come out with, they act as if they're acting to overthrow some sort of post-apocalyptic tyrannical dictatorship. "Power to the people" is the rallying call of an extremist minority who don't represent anything resembling a majority. Note the absolutely overwhelming majority of these crowds being made up of men as well. 

I have my share of issues with the Met Police at large but these people have families and lives to go home to. The majority of policemen and women are good well-intentioned people who have chosen a career in serving and protecting the public. It's inevitable some of the time but they still shouldn't face abuse, threat and physical injury like they do on nights like this. Unacceptable.

[Waylander]

Here's another one, I guess London football fans have nowhere to go,

 

[Azeem]

[Azeem]

Sir Tony Blair

[MUFC]

6 hours ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Sir Tony Blair

Is this a joke?

[Waylander]

Unfortunately not.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Sir Tony Blair

That's it I'm going to Denmark 

[The Artful Dodger]

Blair one of the worst Prime Ministers this country has ever had. It's no surprise he's being knighted, we are living in Blair's world.

Edited January 4, 2022 by The Artful Dodger