UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

It’s a bit fucking insulting to a lot of English born people who’re descendants of commonwealth countries (and look at those demographic stats, those are a lot of ethnicities that were part of the British fucking empire), that live in England as English people, to tell them they’re not English because of how they look.

[Harry]

18 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It’s a bit fucking insulting to a lot of English born people who’re descendants of commonwealth countries (and look at those demographic stats, those are a lot of ethnicities that were part of the British fucking empire), that live in England as English people, to tell them they’re not English because of how they look.

If that's the argument. I think the actual argument many would make though would be more questioning the ultimate benefits delivered to its people by an growing economy that is driven primarily by immigration. Bringing in foreign wealth that drives up prices and demand and ultimately pushes the preexisting residents further down the pecking order.

I don't really have a side in this debate but I do sympathise with both sides. My old house, the first ever home I owned, where my son was born we sold to a young Chinese couple of first homebuyers, or so I thought... Was so excited to think our house would be with another young family however it's now sat empty for 18 months and appears to have been bought as a means of parking Chinese wealth in a safe space.... Australian property. Someone comes and stays there maybe one day per month doing just enough to avoid the investor tax on vacant homes.

It's a specific situational example but one where our newspapers are all patting ourselves on the back about decades since the last recession and property prices at record highs, yet every first homebuyer is priced out of the market and lovely houses in beautiful streets sit empty. 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Harry

[Dr. Gonzo]

44 minutes ago, Harry said:

If that's the argument. I think the actual argument many would make though would be more questioning the ultimate benefits delivered to its people by an growing economy that is driven primarily by immigration. Bringing in foreign wealth that drives up prices and demand and ultimately pushes the preexisting residents further down the pecking order.

I don't really have a side in this debate but I do sympathise with both sides. My old house, the first ever home I owned, where my son was born we sold to a young Chinese couple of first homebuyers, or so I thought... Was so excited to think our house would be with another young family however it's now sat empty for 18 months and appears to have been bought as a means of parking Chinese wealth in a safe space.... Australian property. Someone comes and stays there maybe one day per month doing just enough to avoid the investor tax on vacant homes.

It's a specific situational example but one where our newspapers are all patting ourselves on the back about decades since the last recession and property prices at record highs, yet every first homebuyer is priced out of the market and lovely houses in beautiful streets sit empty. 

 

I don’t think that’s what is being complained about when it’s said that “London is being overrun by outsiders” as he didn’t say “London’s housing market is being artificially inflated by Chinese investors” (which is basically happening all over the world tbh). 2 separate issues tbh and Brexit wouldn’t have an impact on Chinese investment in any case because China isn’t in the EU. But when people are saying shite like we’re being overrun by foreigners, it’s the people they’re seeing on the streets. Not the nameless, faceless (to most of us) real estate investments 

[Harry]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don’t think that’s what is being complained about when it’s said that “London is being overrun by outsiders” as he didn’t say “London’s housing market is being artificially inflated by Chinese investors” (which is basically happening all over the world tbh). 2 separate issues tbh and Brexit wouldn’t have an impact on Chinese investment in any case because China isn’t in the EU. But when people are saying shite like we’re being overrun by foreigners, it’s the people they’re seeing on the streets. Not the nameless, faceless (to most of us) real estate investments 

It's a subset of the same thing. Fill a city full of imports and gradually it drives prices higher and keeps growth ticking along, but on that bottom level are the people actually benefiting from that or are they slowly slipping further towards poverty? Are the people of japan which refuses to run at such generous immigration levels really that much worse off? Or are they appreciating that the key goal is preservation or improvement of the quality of life of the people which can hold up well enough despite low growth? Alternatively is their world deteriorating but they stay stubborn in prioritising the value in preserving their culture and what makes their cities different from those elsewhere?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Harry

[Inverted]

I'm absolutely supportive of immigration, but to me the troublesome aspect of much of the rationale rough which people justify immigration is that it is based on an economic logic in which continual growth is required. I think we've reached a point in economic history at which highly developed countries should cease to seek economic growth as a goal in itself. There is enough wealth overall. Our economic problems are no longer to do with the amount of wealth, but with allocation and distribution. 

Obviously, the problem is that capitalism is founded on a need for profits to grow which presupposes a growth-oriented model. 

But even if we even want to maintain our current level, immigration would still be economically valuable, with an overall ageing population, not to mention the tendency for immigrants to help lessen particularly acute labour shortages such as in healthcare. 

And finally of course immigration has social and moral justifications which go beyond economic quantification. 

[Stan]

What a joke/waste of space Change UK are/were 

 

[SirBalon]

48 minutes ago, Stan said:

What a joke/waste of space Change UK are/were 

 

A farce! Bet a couple of those end up with the Lib Dems. They could’ve done this before the Euro Elections though. Not good news for the other parties coz now focus will be more centered.

[6666]

6 MPs are confirmed to have left Change UK. 5 MPs remain. This party is basically dead already.

[Kowabunga]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

6 MPs are confirmed to have left Change UK. 5 MPs remain. This party is basically dead already.

After naming a new party after himself Chuka leaves CHUK like a rat. The paragon of commitment 

My dear brits: is there going to be a general election or not?

Edited June 4, 2019 by Kowabunga

[Fairy In Boots]

On 30/05/2019 at 23:16, Inverted said:

So the two biggest political groupings in the country right now are viciously pro-austerity Remainers, and No Deal supporters. 

At least we've found one unifying issue for the country: 80% of the country is in agreement that the disabled and mentally ill need to keep being driven to their deaths. 

Encouraging stuff. 

Poll was designed to downgrade the Brexit party, it’s since been proved shite as they’ve taken the lead. Farage is a very real possibility for PM now.

On 01/06/2019 at 18:31, SirBalon said:

 

Educated in Harvard USA, the U.K.’s answer to race baiting idiot Jesse Jackson is David Lammy

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yeah Harvard's a real tin pot uni 

[SirBalon]

Delusion. Then I’m the one taken to task on questioning words chosen but with the content intact and factual so as to try and discredit it in some unusual way. People should keep their eyes open and use the simple tools learned in elementary education. Nothing more is really required unless one has conditions.

[Kowabunga]

Rename CHUK to SOber Union of British Radical Yokels.

[Dr. Gonzo]

16 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Delusion. Then I’m the one taken to task on questioning words chosen but with the content intact and factual so as to try and discredit it in some unusual way. People should keep their eyes open and use the simple tools learned in elementary education. Nothing more is really required unless one has conditions.

I’m not sure critical thinking skills are taught well enough during elementary education for that to be true, I’m afraid

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Delusion. Then I’m the one taken to task on questioning words chosen but with the content intact and factual so as to try and discredit it in some unusual way. People should keep their eyes open and use the simple tools learned in elementary education. Nothing more is really required unless one has conditions.

If it’s in response to my post, I’m just pointing out Lammy is a bit of a cunt. You’re referencing a moron. 

Also on Cleese the idea that one of the brains behind “life of Brian” gives a fuck about “social outrage” is funny. He’s right too London is a shithole riddled with knife crime and ghetto estates, Birmingham has followed suit. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Post-Brexit trade talks with the US should be fun: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/06/trump-britain-nhs-table-trade-deal-talks-190604131718068.html

[Fairy In Boots]

On 01/06/2019 at 19:18, Stan said:

Or skin colour.

I don't fully understand what people say though when the say a certain city is 'not English any more'. What should it be, by their standards? 

 

English by cultural influence and behaviour. For example and you can probably relate, I was talking to a mate of mine who’s a Sikh and he’s going Barcelona next week and I he was telling me how he loved Spain. I said “don’t you go back to India much? “

His response “ not if I can help it, it’s a fucking shit hole, Spain is nice”  

he wants what he’s used to a western lifestyle, born & bred here. Indian by heritage but very much English and at odds with “the old country”. 

However Cleese is right;  What happens in impoverished ghettos because they are ghettos in our cities is England. Western culture retreats as the areas become less desirable to live in and the demographic shifts so the original culture from 1st or 2nd generation migrants takesover. A great example is the “anti LGBT protests in Brum” I tell you now and you will dismiss it most likely but hey ho. There are parts of our cities where integration has completely failed and you have areas that are closer in culture to countries thousands of miles away that 5 miles away. 

2nd & 3rd generation black & Asian flight to the suburbs is proof of this. 

On 02/06/2019 at 23:35, Inverted said:

I'm absolutely supportive of immigration, but to me the troublesome aspect of much of the rationale rough which people justify immigration is that it is based on an economic logic in which continual growth is required. I think we've reached a point in economic history at which highly developed countries should cease to seek economic growth as a goal in itself. There is enough wealth overall. Our economic problems are no longer to do with the amount of wealth, but with allocation and distribution. 

Obviously, the problem is that capitalism is founded on a need for profits to grow which presupposes a growth-oriented model. 

But even if we even want to maintain our current level, immigration would still be economically valuable, with an overall ageing population, not to mention the tendency for immigrants to help lessen particularly acute labour shortages such as in healthcare. 

And finally of course immigration has social and moral justifications which go beyond economic quantification. 

I work in automation and cheap labour provided by immigration has slowed us down and suppressed wages. Since the decision was made to leave the EU I’m spending 10-15% more of my time in universities supporting medical applications for collaborative robot projects. 

Litigation does take its time and clinical trials take the piss but in reality with the tech that’s being worked on now we could in all seriousness do away with a significant portion of the NHS staff and provide better care. 

I was at one the other day, dialysis in your own home fully portable. Has taken them 10 years to get where they are and still the NHS drag their fucking heels, it’s all been funded by venture capitalists though those fuckers why can’t they just divide up their money amongst the poor? We don’t need their financial speculation on life changing medical care 

[SirBalon]

55 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

If it’s in response to my post, I’m just pointing out Lammy is a bit of a cunt. You’re referencing a moron. 

Also on Cleese the idea that one of the brains behind “life of Brian” gives a fuck about “social outrage” is funny. He’s right too London is a shithole riddled with knife crime and ghetto estates, Birmingham has followed suit. 

 

And that's the fault of the EU?

The Europeans?

Muslims?

Jews?

Blacks?

Brown people?

Foreigners?

Who?

Who's to blame for knife crime rises in London and all over the UK?

[Stan]

15 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

English by cultural influence and behaviour. For example and you can probably relate, I was talking to a mate of mine who’s a Sikh and he’s going Barcelona next week and I he was telling me how he loved Spain. I said “don’t you go back to India much? “

His response “ not if I can help it, it’s a fucking shit hole, Spain is nice”  

he wants what he’s used to a western lifestyle, born & bred here. Indian by heritage but very much English and at odds with “the old country”. 

However Cleese is right;  What happens in impoverished ghettos because they are ghettos in our cities is England. Western culture retreats as the areas become less desirable to live in and the demographic shifts so the original culture from 1st or 2nd generation migrants takesover. A great example is the “anti LGBT protests in Brum” I tell you now and you will dismiss it most likely but hey ho. There are parts of our cities where integration has completely failed and you have areas that are closer in culture to countries thousands of miles away that 5 miles away. 

2nd & 3rd generation black & Asian flight to the suburbs is proof of this. 

Firstly, that's one person you know who doesn't like India . Maybe the places he goes to is a shithole but it's not like the whole country is a shithole or that they're all slumming it. When I went there, pretty much did a whole tour of the country - there's shit parts, there's some absolutely amazing parts. Guess what? It's like pretty much any other MEDC! Of course Spain is nice. I like Spain too. What does your friend liking Spain have to do with London being English by culture?

By the way, and it probably doesn't matter to you, but you seriously do sound like Katie Hopkins when you say there's ghettos .  Integration has failed in some parts; I don't disagree. But it's kind of hard for people to integrate when they're labelled or targeted in the first place, no, like the aforementioned Hopkins or people like Robinson? Or political figures like Farage or Boris Johnson who clearly spew their bile in their newspaper columns or in promotional campaigns to shit on the minorities? How can people be expected to integrate when they're racially abused or physically attacked just for being a different skin colour ffs? What do you expect them to do, act like it didn't happen and invite the racists in for tea and curry?

I don't agree with the anti-LGBT protests by the way. Think it's a load of old shit and the parents need to get with the times. I think the teacher who's idea it was needs commending for teaching children that other children will be different and that's how it should be. It's not teaching them anything graphic or x-rated. I think the parents are being over-sensitive about it and have taken it too far with these extended protest. When it comes to that kind of integration in to our society, I'll give you that. Taking kids out of school totally just because they have a teacher who decides to preach equality is a dumb move. 

I still don't believe Cleese is right in his comments. To say London isn't English any more, for me, is wide of the mark. It's had a diverse culture for several years. Decades, probably. I also don't agree that western culture has retreated or is retreating, either. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

If anything the far right wants us to cede our British culture so we can become more like the Americans.

[SirBalon]

AUSTERITY

A U S T E R I T Y

A  U  S  T  E  R  I  T  Y

 

I've answered the question becaise I don't trust everyone with important information. Successive governments are to blame, nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with Muslims, other brown people, Europeans, Caribbeans, Africans. Maybe a different religion like Jews, because Jews own the money and everything that comes with money involving influence (obviously bloody bullshit)... Oh! It covers both sides of the political ideological spectrum, trust me. There are idiots everywhere!

Fucking knife crime! What the fuck did that mean anyway.

So what bloody country does London feel like, ey?

I was brought up here, born here and I range from the beginning of the 1970s... Ive seen the change and THANK FUCKING GOD for that change because if any twat tells me they want to go back to pre-90s (just to put a random date on any start to a change) life in London. Then they need to be sectioned but if someone tells me that with a limited experience of London and real life in this marvellous city... Then they can shut it because they know not of what they speak.

[Fairy In Boots]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

And that's the fault of the EU?

The Europeans?

Muslims?

Jews?

Blacks?

Brown people?

Foreigners?

Who?

Who's to blame for knife crime rises in London and all over the UK?

 

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

AUSTERITY

A U S T E R I T Y

A  U  S  T  E  R  I  T  Y

 

I've answered the question becaise I don't trust everyone with important information. Successive governments are to blame, nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with Muslims, other brown people, Europeans, Caribbeans, Africans. Maybe a different religion like Jews, because Jews own the money and everything that comes with money involving influence (obviously bloody bullshit)... Oh! It covers both sides of the political ideological spectrum, trust me. There are idiots everywhere!

Fucking knife crime! What the fuck did that mean anyway.

So what bloody country does London feel like, ey?

I was brought up here, born here and I range from the beginning of the 1970s... Ive seen the change and THANK FUCKING GOD for that change because if any twat tells me they want to go back to pre-90s (just to put a random date on any start to a change) life in London. Then they need to be sectioned but if someone tells me that with a limited experience of London and real life in this marvellous city... Then they can shut it because they know not of what they speak.

We can all go home now Balon has   posed and answered his own question, there’s no need for a forum. 

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

We can all go home now Balon has   posed and answered his own question, there’s no need for a forum. 

Actually it's even more complicated than that but am not going to bother. What is a fact and is the part you would be interested in is that it hasn't got anything to do with foreigners or Muslims.

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Actually it's even more complicated than that but am not going to bother. What is a fact and is the part you would be interested in is that it hasn't got anything to do with foreigners or Muslims.

I’ve not mentioned Muslims once you have though several times. The fact you’re answering your own questions on a forum shows it’s utterly ridiculous to even attempt to debate with you. You’re the forum equivalent of a university protestor, you have been for some time. 

Stans response warrants a reply, I’ll do that later when I’ve got free time. 

[SirBalon]

22 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I’ve not mentioned Muslims once you have though several times. The fact you’re answering your own questions on a forum shows it’s utterly ridiculous to even attempt to debate with you. You’re the forum equivalent of a university protestor, you have been for some time. 

Stans response warrants a reply, I’ll do that later when I’ve got free time. 

No no. I have the answers. The answers are simple and don’t need a very evolved brain. The only thing required is clarity and as little conditioning as possible. No prejudices or unbalanced tribal afflictions.

I was simply searching for your mindset because you won’t answer the lie or misguided ideas you have as to London issues. You said London is fucked and I as a Londoner that lives in London am telling you it isn’t. You have a view from afar when you are from Birmingham and who could possibly be right here?

You used my questioning of John Cleese’s tweet and his comment angle was a Brexit one which means Europeans. Yet you’ve chosen a route of using brown people from Asia and maybe the Middle East as the fabricated reasons for issues one of the biggest cities in the world may have and I can guarantee you that the European Union doesn’t have a member state from Asia or the Middle East. Infact knife crime doesn’t have a European connection at all from an immigration point of view but it DOES have an angle (as several others) from what’s occurred due to austerity.

So I ask you again... Why is there a rise in crime especially with youth knife crime in London’s more poorer areas?

Talkfootball365 is a free portal to express your view and here you won’t have the excuse of having your freedom of speech capped to state your mind. But I want FACTS not bullshit. Stuff you can back-up your argument with and that doesn’t include opinions from anyone else or especially BELIEFS. Statistical or studied facts from independent sources that aren’t manipulated think tanks.

Thanks for your time.