UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[SirBalon]

On 5 September 2019 at 14:54, Kowabunga said:

I have no idea of the outcome of this game of thimbleriggers. 

But one thing. Your political system is going to come out embalmed in shit.

From Deutchland

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

37 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

To lots of people it can't, while the country as a whole may suffer more to these left behind people it doesn't matter, they've already lost it all and nobody cared about that then, why would they care now? When you have fuck all and the community is totally shattered then what's going to top that? Remain is packed full of wankers worried about their skiing holidays. These people are just as much the enemy as any full on Brexiteer.

 

 

Well anyone who thinks Britain can’t get any worse than it is currently is an absolute fucking moron. Britain’s leadership left them behind, but if they think it can’t get worse they really are just closed minded idiots. If the middle class takes a battering, the working class are going to have it much worse.

Saying “it can’t get any worse” is one of the stupidest things anyone can say regarding politics. It can always get worse - especially for people living in the Western world.

[SirBalon]

"The will" of what people?

 

[SirBalon]

Anyway... The House of Lords has bassed the bill and made it law that we CANNOT leave the EU without a deal.

Now BJ will look to activate and enable civil unrest with choice words (he's already been doing that between yesterday and today) select statements. It's his last hope to save himself because "ME" is what it's all about for the man that shuffled "Leave" and "Remain" for his Telegraph column on the eve of the 2016 Referendum.

[SirBalon]

 

[Stan]

35 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

 

I, for one, am completely shocked! 

Nothing will come of it, sadly. Nothing happened with the Vote Leave corruption stuff if I'm right in thinking. 

[SirBalon]

39 minutes ago, Stan said:

I, for one, am completely shocked! 

Nothing will come of it, sadly. Nothing happened with the Vote Leave corruption stuff if I'm right in thinking. 

Practically nothing and I don’t know with this one although the difference here is the electoral commission making the statement which wasn’t the case on the 2016 referendum if I remember correctly.

But ignoring all that, it gives justice to say that “the will of the people” cliché is a load of bullshit and means nothing. It seems everything “leave” is shrouded in corruption, lies and deception.

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Well anyone who thinks Britain can’t get any worse than it is currently is an absolute fucking moron. Britain’s leadership left them behind, but if they think it can’t get worse they really are just closed minded idiots. If the middle class takes a battering, the working class are going to have it much worse.

Saying “it can’t get any worse” is one of the stupidest things anyone can say regarding politics. It can always get worse - especially for people living in the Western world.

I didn't say Britain couldn't get any worse but the communities that have been left behind. Of course you can say there will be x, y and z shortages but these places are broken and nothing will effect the complete nihilism that's taken hold. You clearly haven't experienced what I'm talking about. 

Remainers unwillingness to actually address the real problems in this country are part of the problem. That's why they're widely loathed and rightfully so. Remain has been hijacked by house prices and rent yields, when it should be about reversing decades of malevolent attacks on the working class. But then most people don't care about that when it's not effecting them. 

[The Artful Dodger]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

What you've just aimed at "Remainers" is sick and below the belt without even knowing what it's all about it seems. For you to label "Remainers" as "not caring" is utterly callous and defamatory without a shadow of a doubt. That statement is worse than all the thick ones hardline "Brexiters" comment every day hundreds of times during the day...

If you took your fucking ultra left wing head out of the sand for a minute you'd see that the ones creating victims where they won't enact upon it are those using those poor souls for their own benefit. It's all Bout TAX for most of them! You'll find most remainers want to and are prepared to pay more tax so as to enable a status quo that's only just.

Just look at turn outs in the UK city protests. They're white, priveleged people generally. Nothing wrong with that but it's true. 

Remain doesn't speak about what happens after we remain because most of them were happy with how it was. Well sadly for you, things aren't ever going back to how they were. The bloodsucking middle class have had their day in this country. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

34 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I didn't say Britain couldn't get any worse but the communities that have been left behind. Of course you can say there will be x, y and z shortages but these places are broken and nothing will effect the complete nihilism that's taken hold. You clearly haven't experienced what I'm talking about. 

Remainers unwillingness to actually address the real problems in this country are part of the problem. That's why they're widely loathed and rightfully so. Remain has been hijacked by house prices and rent yields, when it should be about reversing decades of malevolent attacks on the working class. But then most people don't care about that when it's not effecting them. 

I mean I've experienced people saying similar stupid things. And I'll tell you the same thing I've told them - that's basically like saying you want to eat a pile of shite just so people you don't like can smell your breath. Sure, they'll all smell your shitty breath - but you'll also be the one who's eaten a pile of shite and gotten sick from it.

Remainers, much like people who voted for Brexit, aren't some homogenised group either. I don't think you can say that remainers stand for anything unifying other than remaining in the EU. But the idea that we leave the EU and suddenly things go back to how they were pre-Thatcher is fucking mental.

The idea that Brexit does anything positive for the working class is absurd. The idea that Westminster will spread more money around to neglected areas all across the UK, rather than divert it to the City of London like it currently has, once Brexit has taken place and there's less fucking money in the UK to spread around is pure fantasy.

The disaster capitalists are looking down on working class leave voters thanking their lucky stars they have people they can trick into voting against their own interests. The people who's goal is for our next recession to be as big as possible, so they can "clean up the mess" by buying everything they can get their fucking hands on (which tbh, if you've got the cash lined up a No Deal Brexit might mean the best time to buy a nice house - but the people who've been tricked into voting against their interests are most definitely NOT the people with the cash lined up). And that's not just from a housing market crash, that's from them hoping austerity will force privitisation. That's a big opportunity for the ultra wealthy. But what's that fucking do for the working class?

It means what austerity always means for the working class. And if the recession is very bad and the economy needs massive stimulation, that's going to lead to another conservative wet dream of massive deregulation. Does deregulation benefit the working class?

Were people left behind? Absolutely. Do they have a right to be furious that they've been neglected for decades? Absolutely. Does this mean we should remove ourselves from the ability to participate in multilateral trade deals as a EU member state? No - why would it? The ultimate end result there is that Britain makes trade deals (because trade deals will still happen, most countries will want to avoid the friction of WTO tariffs and trade is going to be necessary because hampering our ability to participate in the global economy does not mean the global economy will stop - no matter how many people with the Little Britain mindset will tell you), but they've gotten worse deals than they would have because simply put our economy leverage in trade deals is much worse alone than it would be negotiating as part of the EU block. So what does that likely do?

That likely makes a shitload of things (including things people need, like bog rolls and fucking food) more expensive. And that's also not accounting for how many businesses leave the UK after Brexit and the impact that'll make on our economy at large... not just Britain's leverage in trade negotiations.

And do you know who'll feel the shit end of the stick the hardest in that hypothetical period of economic uncertainty that'll last for... fuck knows how long? Is it the upper class? Fuck no, it's not the upper class. Is it the middle class? Well, they'll certainly feel a squeeze. And it'll be tough for a lot of people. But who will it hurt the most? It'll hurt the working class the most, because shit economic policies ALWAYS hurt the working class the most.

People willing to make themselves sick from eating from a pile of shit just so people they don't like will have to smell their breath shouldn't be so fucking stupid.

[SirBalon]

5 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Remainers unwillingness to actually address the real problems in this country are part of the problem.

Remainers are citizens of this country mate. Citizens like any other and because of an accident of birth by being born in London or moving there in search of something better aren’t to blame. Remainers are people and they’re not exclusive to London either mate.

Poverty is not an EU issue, it’s a domestic one all the way 100%.

as someone said to me the other day on those remaining Brexiter hardliners...

”They hate their lives and that’s a product of our politics in the UK. They hate their lives so much that they are willing to vote to hate their life even more if there’s a chance of people better off than them feeling some of the same sentiments.”

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Remainers are people and they’re not exclusive to London either mate.

He should know that if he lives in Merseyside - the original article from FT is behind a paywall (unfortunately) so I won't post that here but: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/ - Merseysiders are less Eurosceptic because we've been consuming less far right propaganda than the rest of the country since 1989. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Dr. Gonzo

[The Artful Dodger]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean I've experienced people saying similar stupid things. And I'll tell you the same thing I've told them - that's basically like saying you want to eat a pile of shite just so people you don't like can smell your breath. Sure, they'll all smell your shitty breath - but you'll also be the one who's eaten a pile of shite and gotten sick from it.

Remainers, much like people who voted for Brexit, aren't some homogenised group either. I don't think you can say that remainers stand for anything unifying other than remaining in the EU. But the idea that we leave the EU and suddenly things go back to how they were pre-Thatcher is fucking mental.

The idea that Brexit does anything positive for the working class is absurd. The idea that Westminster will spread more money around to neglected areas all across the UK, rather than divert it to the City of London like it currently has, once Brexit has taken place and there's less fucking money in the UK to spread around is pure fantasy.

The disaster capitalists are looking down on working class leave voters thanking their lucky stars they have people they can trick into voting against their own interests. The people who's goal is for our next recession to be as big as possible, so they can "clean up the mess" by buying everything they can get their fucking hands on (which tbh, if you've got the cash lined up a No Deal Brexit might mean the best time to buy a nice house - but the people who've been tricked into voting against their interests are most definitely NOT the people with the cash lined up). And that's not just from a housing market crash, that's from them hoping austerity will force privitisation. That's a big opportunity for the ultra wealthy. But what's that fucking do for the working class?

It means what austerity always means for the working class. And if the recession is very bad and the economy needs massive stimulation, that's going to lead to another conservative wet dream of massive deregulation. Does deregulation benefit the working class?

Were people left behind? Absolutely. Do they have a right to be furious that they've been neglected for decades? Absolutely. Does this mean we should remove ourselves from the ability to participate in multilateral trade deals as a EU member state? No - why would it? The ultimate end result there is that Britain makes trade deals (because trade deals will still happen, most countries will want to avoid the friction of WTO tariffs and trade is going to be necessary because hampering our ability to participate in the global economy does not mean the global economy will stop - no matter how many people with the Little Britain mindset will tell you), but they've gotten worse deals than they would have because simply put our economy leverage in trade deals is much worse alone than it would be negotiating as part of the EU block. So what does that likely do?

That likely makes a shitload of things (including things people need, like bog rolls and fucking food) more expensive. And that's also not accounting for how many businesses leave the UK after Brexit and the impact that'll make on our economy at large... not just Britain's leverage in trade negotiations.

And do you know who'll feel the shit end of the stick the hardest in that hypothetical period of economic uncertainty that'll last for... fuck knows how long? Is it the upper class? Fuck no, it's not the upper class. Is it the middle class? Well, they'll certainly feel a squeeze. And it'll be tough for a lot of people. But who will it hurt the most? It'll hurt the working class the most, because shit economic policies ALWAYS hurt the working class the most.

People willing to make themselves sick from eating from a pile of shit just so people they don't like will have to smell their breath shouldn't be so fucking stupid.

While I agree that the EU is not some malevolent force for bad, neither is it some super force for good. It is simply not that powerful. There are many things about the EU which are very concerning and its rules on state aid, for one, can be only be considered detrimental to national industries in need. 

You're still arguing from a point of view that things can get much worse for many people. From a material point of view perhaps (but not definitely) you're right but socially and emotionally you're not. Take a town like Pontefract (using it because I know it well), it's ceased to have a purpose this is a place with literally no hope of every being a functioning part of the British economy again. Saying to people there, 'ahh but things can get much worse', just is not going to work. That's why remain campaigners are so appalling at actually winning anyone over because all their arguments are negative. 

The only way to even begin to counteract the UK's problems is a proper left wing government, of which Corbyn would be a start. Yet you see most of remain actively hostile to him. This tells you what you need to know. They're not interested in actually helping anyone. Brexit is is not as important as people think it is, certainly not for the working classes. 

I voted remain, think it was stupid to have a vote but we must leave in some way. If we do not do this then we will sew the seeds for something so much more unpleasant than anyone can really contemplate.

[LFCMike]

4 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

 

The only way to even begin to counteract the UK's problems is a proper left wing government, of which Corbyn would be a start. Yet you see most of remain actively hostile to him. This tells you what you need to know. They're not interested in actually helping anyone. Brexit is is not as important as people think it is, certainly not for the working classes. 

 

And yet tell that to people who voted leave in these poor Northern towns and they'll trot out the terrorist sympathiser amongst other shite they've read in the Daily Mail. They've now been fed the no deal rubbish from Johnson and that's all they want. They won't entertain any other option. There's loads in traditional Labour areas, such as where I live, that voted leave that say they won't vote Labour under Corbyn. They're absolutely nuts, I can't get my head around it.

[RandoEFC+]

It's insane. How anyone can vote for this Conservative government with Johnson at the helm is beyond me. 21 MPs sacrificed their entire careers this week to stop Boris Johnson from achieving his selfish goal of delivering Brexit at all costs because of the damage it would do to the country. Why else would they have done it? It certainly wasnt for personal gain because they've fucking decimated their own careers in the process. Boris's own brother left the party in a very public manner because he has taken the Conservative party in such a dark direction.

People can say what they want about Corbyn as a leader, he splits opinion but you cant say that he's as flat out unfit for office as Boris Johnson.

[Harry]

21 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Well anyone who thinks Britain can’t get any worse than it is currently is an absolute fucking moron. Britain’s leadership left them behind, but if they think it can’t get worse they really are just closed minded idiots. If the middle class takes a battering, the working class are going to have it much worse.

Saying “it can’t get any worse” is one of the stupidest things anyone can say regarding politics. It can always get worse - especially for people living in the Western world.

That may be true but a mentality of voting to blow up a system that is perceived to have delivered massive inequality and that has massively failed some sectors is understandable imo.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I guess I just don’t understand emotional voters. But tbh, I think most people are painfully stupid and I don’t know how they survive on a day to day basis - and at least some of most people vote. So I shouldn’t really be surprised.

[The Artful Dodger]

Dr gonzo and SirBalon are tory enablers with their anti left wing shite. They'll be first against the wall... 

 

... It''s just a joke, like on top gear 

[SirBalon]

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Dr gonzo and SirBalon are tory enablers with their anti left wing shite. They'll be first against the wall... 

 

... It''s just a joke, like on top gear 

Tory enablers for being against a far right wet dream?

[The Artful Dodger]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tory enablers for being against a far right wet dream?

Just seen Steve smith bat England out the game. Amazing. Like messi. 

[RandoEFC+]

Amber Rudd the latest to resign.

Leaving the Conservative party is becoming the next #MeToo movement. Boris Johnson slowly turning them into the Brexit party in all but name. Can see more and more people following these recent high profile departures. Looks like if you want to be a Tory now you have to back a no deal Brexit or get out. I've never been a Conservative sympathiser but it's worrying to see them becoming essentially a one-issue party for the foreseeable future and makes it even more important that Johnson is turfed out one way or another following the upcoming election. Electing him as leader was a huge gamble from the Conservatives even though it was perceived as the "safe bet" at the time, and it looks to be backfiring pretty spectacularly at this stage.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Just seen Steve smith bat England out the game. Amazing. Like messi. 

Cool. But I think you’re probably more an enemy of the working class than me or @SirBalon

Edited September 7, 2019 by Dr. Gonzo

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Cool. But I think you’re probably more an enemy of the working class than me or @SirBalon

Oh, my conscience is completely clean in this respect and many others revolving Brexit. My words and thoughts are the only thing that can save the British working classes from total and utter disaster.

@The Artful Dodger mixes how shit successive BRITISH governments have been with anything Brexit related. Yes it's true many voted for Brexit that have suffered but they've been used by souncdrel politicians that have lied to them and over 30 years of media/journalistic tripe filled with total lies. They're conditioned and then there's more, there's nationalism (the bad kind) that's mixed in there too which contains a lot of dodgy stuff.

Keaving the EU in ANY form will be bad, some worse than others with total disaster on a No Deal Brexit. Those that aren't wealthy WILL SUFFER!

This isn't about left or right. This in all of its forms is about extremes... both LEFT AND RIGHT with the extreme right having the upper hand of government right now.

People to blame... Those with their eyes wide open will know many of them from politics, to corporative types at the highest ranks and of course, those (especially him) like the bloke with a picture I quoted in my previous post.

[RandoEFC+]

#WhatTheCountryVotedFor