Formula One - General Chat

[nudge+]

9 hours ago, MUFC said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Cannabis said:

Schumacher was fundamentally a cheat though, a despicable and horrible character. 

So you know him, I take it?... Nah don't think so. 

Really can't be arsed to have this "discussion" again, it's been going for years now. It's no secret Schumi was ruthless and always pushing the limits on track and was capable of dirty tricks in order to win at any price necessary; I don't think even his biggest fans ever denied that. 94 in Adelaide with Damon Hill and 97 in Jerez with Villeneuve as well as the qualifying incident in Monaco 06 are good examples of that. I won't dispute the 97 and 06 ones at all because they were indeed very blatant attempts to gain advantage unfairly, but both backfired completely and he didn't benefit from them one bit. Now let's take a look at the 1994 season. I love it how that video MUFC posted uses some certain facts to nicely confirm its claims yet conveniently leaves some other ones that do not fit into the narrative out. First of all, everyone who follows the sport for that long knows that all teams have always done their best to find a way around regulations and get an advantage, whether fairly or not; the general attitude was always along the lines of "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" and that's why we always had so many parts and systems deemed illegal and banned at some point. Now in that particular season such cheating was extremely rampant, and I don't doubt for one second that Benetton was one of the teams who did it but it's a bit weird that only they are being brought into the center of these allegations despite the fact that they were the only ones who actually got shafted with penalties and fines throughout the season while the others were not. What's even weirder is the fact that it's Schumacher who's being blamed for his team running allegedly illegal cars as if he was some sort of a mastermind behind that. Anyway, let's take a more detailed look at the specifics of these claims. Those fuel valves allegations - as it was found out later in that season, fuel filter tampering was done by all but 4 of the teams on the grid that year and Benetton's was only investigated because of Verstappen's car going into flames in the garage. Benetton was cleared off any cheating here. Launch/traction control - apparently was hidden somewhere in the software of the car but has never been proved to have actually been used (doesn't mean they didn't either). Meanwhile, Ferrari were caught running traction control at the Pacific GP and one of their drivers openly admitted it but they were let off the hook completely. McLaren were caught using an illegal fully automated gear shifting in Häkkinen's car but escaped without any punishment as well. Schumacher crashing into Hill in Adelaide was borderline for me but in fact Hill benefited heavily from Schumacher race bans earlier in the season - 3 of which were later deemed invalid as per the FIA's own rules - and that's the only reason he was anywhere near Schumi in Championship points in the first place. But nevermind, even if you take that one WDC from him because of the Hill incident and the allegations that Benetton had an illegal car, it's still 6 on his account that he won fair and square as the best driver all while helping build a proper team from a mess that was Ferrari and which then went on to dominate for almost a decade despite not winning a single one since the 70s. No controversies or British media narratives who always painted him as a ruthless German villain can take it away from him.

[Stan]

Oh, @nudge 

 

[Tommy]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Oh, @nudge 

 

Does she have soft feet though?

 

I felt disgusting writing that. 

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, nudge said:

 

So you know him, I take it?... Nah don't think so. 

Really can't be arsed to have this "discussion" again, it's been going for years now. It's no secret Schumi was ruthless and always pushing the limits on track and was capable of dirty tricks in order to win at any price necessary; I don't think even his biggest fans ever denied that. 94 in Adelaide with Damon Hill and 97 in Jerez with Villeneuve as well as the qualifying incident in Monaco 06 are good examples of that. I won't dispute the 97 and 06 ones at all because they were indeed very blatant attempts to gain advantage unfairly, but both backfired completely and he didn't benefit from them one bit. Now let's take a look at the 1994 season. I love it how that video MUFC posted uses some certain facts to nicely confirm its claims yet conveniently leaves some other ones that do not fit into the narrative out. First of all, everyone who follows the sport for that long knows that all teams have always done their best to find a way around regulations and get an advantage, whether fairly or not; the general attitude was always along the lines of "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" and that's why we always had so many parts and systems deemed illegal and banned at some point. Now in that particular season such cheating was extremely rampant, and I don't doubt for one second that Benetton was one of the teams who did it but it's a bit weird that only they are being brought into the center of these allegations despite the fact that they were the only ones who actually got shafted with penalties and fines throughout the season while the others were not. What's even weirder is the fact that it's Schumacher who's being blamed for his team running allegedly illegal cars as if he was some sort of a mastermind behind that. Anyway, let's take a more detailed look at the specifics of these claims. Those fuel valves allegations - as it was found out later in that season, fuel filter tampering was done by all but 4 of the teams on the grid that year and Benetton's was only investigated because of Verstappen's car going into flames in the garage. Benetton was cleared off any cheating here. Launch/traction control - apparently was hidden somewhere in the software of the car but has never been proved to have actually been used (doesn't mean they didn't either). Meanwhile, Ferrari were caught running traction control at the Pacific GP and one of their drivers openly admitted it but they were let off the hook completely. McLaren were caught using an illegal fully automated gear shifting in Häkkinen's car but escaped without any punishment as well. Schumacher crashing into Hill in Adelaide was borderline for me but in fact Hill benefited heavily from Schumacher race bans earlier in the season - 3 of which were later deemed invalid as per the FIA's own rules - and that's the only reason he was anywhere near Schumi in Championship points in the first place. But nevermind, even if you take that one WDC from him because of the Hill incident and the allegations that Benetton had an illegal car, it's still 6 on his account that he won fair and square as the best driver all while helping build a proper team from a mess that was Ferrari and which then went on to dominate for almost a decade despite not winning a single one since the 70s. No controversies or British media narratives who always painted him as a ruthless German villain can take it away from him.

Nice factual response... for someone who didn't want to get into the discussion again you sure came back all Balon style guns blazing with that one.. 

20 hours ago, nudge said:

They're a bunch of hilly billies.

This really made me laugh... 

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Does she have soft feet though?

 

I felt disgusting writing that. 

Don't act like you still don't want to know. 

[Tommy]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

Don't act like you still don't want to know. 

It's not a top priority. Let's put it that way 

[MUFC]

9 hours ago, nudge said:

 

So you know him, I take it?... Nah don't think so. 

Really can't be arsed to have this "discussion" again, it's been going for years now. It's no secret Schumi was ruthless and always pushing the limits on track and was capable of dirty tricks in order to win at any price necessary; I don't think even his biggest fans ever denied that. 94 in Adelaide with Damon Hill and 97 in Jerez with Villeneuve as well as the qualifying incident in Monaco 06 are good examples of that. I won't dispute the 97 and 06 ones at all because they were indeed very blatant attempts to gain advantage unfairly, but both backfired completely and he didn't benefit from them one bit. Now let's take a look at the 1994 season. I love it how that video MUFC posted uses some certain facts to nicely confirm its claims yet conveniently leaves some other ones that do not fit into the narrative out. First of all, everyone who follows the sport for that long knows that all teams have always done their best to find a way around regulations and get an advantage, whether fairly or not; the general attitude was always along the lines of "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" and that's why we always had so many parts and systems deemed illegal and banned at some point. Now in that particular season such cheating was extremely rampant, and I don't doubt for one second that Benetton was one of the teams who did it but it's a bit weird that only they are being brought into the center of these allegations despite the fact that they were the only ones who actually got shafted with penalties and fines throughout the season while the others were not. What's even weirder is the fact that it's Schumacher who's being blamed for his team running allegedly illegal cars as if he was some sort of a mastermind behind that. Anyway, let's take a more detailed look at the specifics of these claims. Those fuel valves allegations - as it was found out later in that season, fuel filter tampering was done by all but 4 of the teams on the grid that year and Benetton's was only investigated because of Verstappen's car going into flames in the garage. Benetton was cleared off any cheating here. Launch/traction control - apparently was hidden somewhere in the software of the car but has never been proved to have actually been used (doesn't mean they didn't either). Meanwhile, Ferrari were caught running traction control at the Pacific GP and one of their drivers openly admitted it but they were let off the hook completely. McLaren were caught using an illegal fully automated gear shifting in Häkkinen's car but escaped without any punishment as well. Schumacher crashing into Hill in Adelaide was borderline for me but in fact Hill benefited heavily from Schumacher race bans earlier in the season - 3 of which were later deemed invalid as per the FIA's own rules - and that's the only reason he was anywhere near Schumi in Championship points in the first place. But nevermind, even if you take that one WDC from him because of the Hill incident and the allegations that Benetton had an illegal car, it's still 6 on his account that he won fair and square as the best driver all while helping build a proper team from a mess that was Ferrari and which then went on to dominate for almost a decade despite not winning a single one since the 70s. No controversies or British media narratives who always painted him as a ruthless German villain can take it away from him.

I never doubted his ability as a driver, and as for knowing him, you really don't know to personally know him when  his antics are being shown live on worldwide TV. Yes other teams bent the rules slightly, but what Benetton did was taking the piss. His partner Jos even made claimed, and I don't like this tosser at all, as did Senna. Even Flavio himself said we had TC on the car but never used it, do you believe it was never used on Schueys car? even when Jos spoke to Flavio about it he never wanted to discuss it, why is this? The excuse was that it was dormant and would cost money to remove them. Anyway you said other cars in 1994 were doing, all but 4 teams, I was young at the time and have looked into this, I don't seem to be able to find anything in 1994 on other teams, if you can show me something I will hold my hands up to it. 

You can argue that Hill was only close in 1994 due to Schueys ban, but you could argue that Schuey was only so far ahead due to the dodgyness of Benetton. Do you really think the 1994 collision was borderline? He blatantly took him out, was as blatant as Keanes tackle on Haaland, or Diegos hand of God, not taking away his other 6 titles but this one should have been taken away, it was revolting what he did. The same in 1997, this should have resulted in a lengthy ban, he was a great driver no doubt but he well passed the line of being ruthless and was a blatant cheat at times. 

Going into another teams garage in 1998 after the collision, this isn't having an aura, this is arrogance. This is a case of whacking anyone who challenges you but when your on the receiving end you can't take it.   even so Coulthard moved aside and it was Schuey himself who hit into the back of Coulthard.

No doubt he was a great driver, and you're right he won the other 6 fair and square, hats off to him. He used his number status 1 status throughout his career effectively, I hope he recovers from his current ill health. 

 

[MUFC]

12 hours ago, Cannabis said:

Schumacher was fundamentally a cheat though, a despicable and horrible character. 

Come on buddy, the guy is in a horrible state right now, really no need for this.

[nudge+]

 

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

I never doubted his ability as a driver, and as for knowing him, you really don't know to personally know him when  his antics are being shown live on worldwide TV.

The "not knowing him" comment was directed at Cannabis, not you. It's one thing to point out his on-track antics and controversies which, as you said, were being shown live and thus accessible to anyone, and a completely different thing to make completely unsubstantiated claims about him being a "despicable and horrible character" which, in fact, couldn't be farther from truth.

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

Yes other teams bent the rules slightly, but what Benetton did was taking the piss. His partner Jos even made claimed, and I don't like this tosser at all, as did Senna. Even Flavio himself said we had TC on the car but never used it, do you believe it was never used on Schueys car? even when Jos spoke to Flavio about it he never wanted to discuss it, why is this? The excuse was that it was dormant and would cost money to remove them. Anyway you said other cars in 1994 were doing, all but 4 teams, I was young at the time and have looked into this, I don't seem to be able to find anything in 1994 on other teams, if you can show me something I will hold my hands up to it. 

Other teams bent the rules slightly? Where exactly do you draw the line? Which illegal aids/systems are only "slight bending of the rules" and which ones should be considered a grave offence then? Now as I said in my previous post, I don't have any doubts about Benetton using illegal systems if they could get an advantage and also get away with it. I know that there was a LC system on the car and as you said, their excuse was that it was problematic to remove and that it was disabled for the races. Now, the thing is, due to the mess of all the newly introduced changes and regulations, other teams have been doing exactly the same. It's obviously not easy to find proper reliable sources online considering the events are 25 years old and Internet wasn't that accessible, but here are some:

A scanned excerpt from the book 1994: The Untold Story of a Tragic and Controversial F1 Season where it explains how banning electronic aids simply led to the teams disarming them instead of purging them completely as that was thought to potentially create unforeseen errors elsewhere: https://imgur.com/a/qQtyrDT  It doesn't name all the teams but alleges it was a common practice and then mentions Williams specifically with some details.

Scanned article of the Motorport Magazine (September 1994 issue) which also explains why the teams left the TC/LC in their cars instead of deleting them and along with Benetton also names Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams as other teams who had those "redundant" electronic systems in their software: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/14.jpg ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/15.jpg

Ferrari driver Nicola Larini (stand-in for injured Alesi) admitted to the Italian press about having TC - here's an Italian source where they mention how Larini explained his poor start in Pacific GP by saying that he forgot to activate the traction control: https://www.automoto.it/formula1/formula-1-nicola-larini-il-mediano-cacciato-da-schumacher.html Hard to find an actual primary source in English given that's it Italian originally but here's a scan of Motorsport Magazine again which briefly mentions it: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/december-2004/full/45.jpg  and there's also this article which mentions Ferrari using an illegal "variable rev limiter" and being caught by FIA and being told to remove it: https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/15/schumacher-wins-traction-control-row-brews/

McLaren charged with using illegal fully automatic gearbox: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-mclaren-face-charges-over-automatic-gearbox-benetton-choose-temporary-replacement-for-1447142.html

The removal of the fuel filter was unveiled to be not done solely by Benetton after another team (Larrousse) presented the letter from Intertechnique (fuel rig provider) which confirmed the permission for filter removal procedures months prior to Benetton investigation thus leading to realisation that other teams were well aware of the practice and could have been doing the same given that most of them experienced issues with the fueling systems at some point(Ferrari, Lotus, Jordan, Arrows are being specifically mentioned here).   https://www.racefans.net/2014/08/14/1994-hungarian-grand-prix-flashback/ ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/22.jpg

3 hours ago, MUFC said:

You can argue that Hill was only close in 1994 due to Schueys ban, but you could argue that Schuey was only so far ahead due to the dodgyness of Benetton. Do you really think the 1994 collision was borderline? He blatantly took him out, was as blatant as Keanes tackle on Haaland, or Diegos hand of God, not taking away his other 6 titles but this one should have been taken away, it was revolting what he did. The same in 1997, this should have resulted in a lengthy ban, he was a great driver no doubt but he well passed the line of being ruthless and was a blatant cheat at times. 

That was my main point - the 1994 season was very messy and everyone was trying to find loopholes because essentially FIA decided to ban things they couldn't properly police, which led to a lot of grey areas that were being constantly exploited by most if not all teams. 
You can argue one thing just as well as you can argue the other; the problem with videos like the one you posted is that they only argue one thing while completely ignoring everything else and that's my biggest gripe with it. As I always said, I never denied that Schumacher was capable of bad unsportsmanlike decisions in the spur of the moment on the track whenever winning was concerned. But even if you disregard all the circumstances and the events leading to that final race of 1994 and say he was the only one who cheated to get the title, that's one occasion only where he could be considered to have won the title unfairly. 1997 (and 2006 to a certain degree) was complete madness; as I said I'm not disputing that; but in the end it didn't benefit him. Not much different from Senna's title in 1990 and Prost's one in 1989 then. Are both of them blatant cheats then? Especially Senna, considering his overall antics on and off track? Or did he get a free pass when he unfortunately died and became a cult legend instead?

3 hours ago, MUFC said:

 Going into another teams garage in 1998 after the collision, this isn't having an aura, this is arrogance. This is a case of whacking anyone who challenges you but when your on the receiving end you can't take it.   even so Coulthard moved aside and it was Schuey himself who hit into the back of Coulthard.

What does it have to do with cheating allegations though? Fair enough you don't like it but that's it. Tensions run high when you're racing so I don't know why people act surprised when drivers let their emotions spill over after an incident, regardless of who's fault it is. 

3 hours ago, MUFC said:

 No doubt he was a great driver, and you're right he won the other 6 fair and square, hats off to him. He used his number status 1 status throughout his career effectively, I hope he recovers from his current ill health. 

Yeah yet the video you posted and every debate I ever heard on this subject only focuses on one season which was highly chaotic and messy in the first place while completely disregarding the circumstances and 6 other titles and labeling him a "cheating champion". Anyhow, this cost me way too much time I should have rather spent working. Especially considering that it's essentially pointless anyway.

[MUFC]

9 hours ago, nudge said:

 

The "not knowing him" comment was directed at Cannabis, not you. It's one thing to point out his on-track antics and controversies which, as you said, were being shown live and thus accessible to anyone, and a completely different thing to make completely unsubstantiated claims about him being a "despicable and horrible character" which, in fact, couldn't be farther from truth.

Other teams bent the rules slightly? Where exactly do you draw the line? Which illegal aids/systems are only "slight bending of the rules" and which ones should be considered a grave offence then? Now as I said in my previous post, I don't have any doubts about Benetton using illegal systems if they could get an advantage and also get away with it. I know that there was a LC system on the car and as you said, their excuse was that it was problematic to remove and that it was disabled for the races. Now, the thing is, due to the mess of all the newly introduced changes and regulations, other teams have been doing exactly the same. It's obviously not easy to find proper reliable sources online considering the events are 25 years old and Internet wasn't that accessible, but here are some:

A scanned excerpt from the book 1994: The Untold Story of a Tragic and Controversial F1 Season where it explains how banning electronic aids simply led to the teams disarming them instead of purging them completely as that was thought to potentially create unforeseen errors elsewhere: https://imgur.com/a/qQtyrDT  It doesn't name all the teams but alleges it was a common practice and then mentions Williams specifically with some details.

Scanned article of the Motorport Magazine (September 1994 issue) which also explains why the teams left the TC/LC in their cars instead of deleting them and along with Benetton also names Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams as other teams who had those "redundant" electronic systems in their software: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/14.jpg ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/15.jpg

Ferrari driver Nicola Larini (stand-in for injured Alesi) admitted to the Italian press about having TC - here's an Italian source where they mention how Larini explained his poor start in Pacific GP by saying that he forgot to activate the traction control: https://www.automoto.it/formula1/formula-1-nicola-larini-il-mediano-cacciato-da-schumacher.html Hard to find an actual primary source in English given that's it Italian originally but here's a scan of Motorsport Magazine again which briefly mentions it: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/december-2004/full/45.jpg  and there's also this article which mentions Ferrari using an illegal "variable rev limiter" and being caught by FIA and being told to remove it: https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/15/schumacher-wins-traction-control-row-brews/

McLaren charged with using illegal fully automatic gearbox: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-mclaren-face-charges-over-automatic-gearbox-benetton-choose-temporary-replacement-for-1447142.html

The removal of the fuel filter was unveiled to be not done solely by Benetton after another team (Larrousse) presented the letter from Intertechnique (fuel rig provider) which confirmed the permission for filter removal procedures months prior to Benetton investigation thus leading to realisation that other teams were well aware of the practice and could have been doing the same given that most of them experienced issues with the fueling systems at some point(Ferrari, Lotus, Jordan, Arrows are being specifically mentioned here).   https://www.racefans.net/2014/08/14/1994-hungarian-grand-prix-flashback/ ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/22.jpg

That was my main point - the 1994 season was very messy and everyone was trying to find loopholes because essentially FIA decided to ban things they couldn't properly police, which led to a lot of grey areas that were being constantly exploited by most if not all teams. 
You can argue one thing just as well as you can argue the other; the problem with videos like the one you posted is that they only argue one thing while completely ignoring everything else and that's my biggest gripe with it. As I always said, I never denied that Schumacher was capable of bad unsportsmanlike decisions in the spur of the moment on the track whenever winning was concerned. But even if you disregard all the circumstances and the events leading to that final race of 1994 and say he was the only one who cheated to get the title, that's one occasion only where he could be considered to have won the title unfairly. 1997 (and 2006 to a certain degree) was complete madness; as I said I'm not disputing that; but in the end it didn't benefit him. Not much different from Senna's title in 1990 and Prost's one in 1989 then. Are both of them blatant cheats then? Especially Senna, considering his overall antics on and off track? Or did he get a free pass when he unfortunately died and became a cult legend instead?

What does it have to do with cheating allegations though? Fair enough you don't like it but that's it. Tensions run high when you're racing so I don't know why people act surprised when drivers let their emotions spill over after an incident, regardless of who's fault it is. 

Yeah yet the video you posted and every debate I ever heard on this subject only focuses on one season which was highly chaotic and messy in the first place while completely disregarding the circumstances and 6 other titles and labeling him a "cheating champion". Anyhow, this cost me way too much time I should have rather spent working. Especially considering that it's essentially pointless anyway.

No reliable Internet sources as the events were 25 years ago, but you can find Internet information on events which happened 100's of years ago if you wanted to. Before I posted I myself looked for your claims of all but 4 teams doing the same but found nothing. I even typed in every team for the 1994 season, and all that comes up is Benetton, even so it was 25 years ago. Anyway we'll leave that out if nothing can be found, and move on to other parts of our conversation. 

I vaguely remember the Mclaren and Ferrari incidents, if memory serves me right and correct me if I am wrong. McLaren were cleared of any wrong wrong doing, but with Benetton were fined for not handing over data. If they were doing anything illegal it didn't help as they finished 4th in the constructors. 

Larini leaked information to the press that he only used it during a single practice session, never in qualifying or an actual race. You also didn't mention that both Larini and Ferrari later denied the claim, this is actually an odd chain of events. 

 Going back to the launch control which supposedly gave quicker starts, Following San Marino, while the investigation was pending, but so when the heat was put on Benetton, Schuey did mysteriously have a decline in many areas, had they stopped doing what they were being accused off? Big reductions in fastest laps and race wins. It reminded me of Ferrari last season, there were rumors of Ferrari and the legitimacy of their battery season, not was said, but as the heat was cranked up they slowed down and seemed to have lost their straight line speed they had prior to allegations. 

No way am I taking away his abaility or his 6 other titles, there was just to much from Benetton in a single season, not to mention the skidblock in 1994 which got him disqualified from the Belgium GP.

I don't give Senna a free pass, do I see him as the greatest? I certainly do, he drove prior to driver aids, and the competition during his time was really tough. Senna in 1990, Prost went into him, in 1989 in my opinion Prost took the corner way to early, I watched the whole race and his line and timing on that corner for the crash was different to his previous laps. Prost for me in 1989 turned in a full car length way to early, out breaking is illegal unless you can get to the corner before the opponent, and as long as its before the opponent can reach the turn or accelerate point of the turn, that was the rule back then anyway. If you don't believe me on this, there use to be a video via an overhead shotm is worth watching, it has changed peoples opinions, it did for me. Oh Prost.

Senna had his cunty ways but he was concerned about safety and rallied for changes in the last few years of his life. The nutter got out of his car on track, to help another driver who had crashed, Oh Senna.

[MUFC]

Palmer having a dig.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/palmer-blasts-vettel-for-amateur-bahrain-error/

[nudge+]

54 minutes ago, MUFC said:

No reliable Internet sources as the events were 25 years ago, but you can find Internet information on events which happened 100's of years ago if you wanted to. Before I posted I myself looked for your claims of all but 4 teams doing the same but found nothing. I even typed in every team for the 1994 season, and all that comes up is Benetton, even so it was 25 years ago. Anyway we'll leave that out if nothing can be found, and move on to other parts of our conversation. 

Yeah that's why I took my time to actually find and post reliable links to sources from well-researched books and respectable racing magazines and articles instead of just some random posts on some discussion board. "All but 4 teams" was meant in regards to fuel filter tampering (see my original post); it was based on Benetton's defense where they admitted that they have removed the filter and never even tried to hide the fact that they did and have provided a list of incidents and teams that got permission from Charlie Whiting and Intertechnique to remove it hence why they were cleared and weren't punished for Verstappen's fire in the pits. Other sources I quoted document other teams having the same or similar prohibited systems in their software and also being accused of cheating so I'm not sure why you'd say that "nothing can be found".

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

 I vaguely remember the Mclaren and Ferrari incidents, if memory serves me right and correct me if I am wrong. McLaren were cleared of any wrong wrong doing, but with Benetton were fined for not handing over data. If they were doing anything illegal it didn't help as they finished 4th in the constructors. 

Yes you are wrong here. Benetton, McLaren, and Ferrari were the three teams that had to hand over the data in that particular case but only Ferrari actually did it. Both Benetton and McLaren were fined for delaying it. McLaren were not cleared of any wrong doing either; it was confirmed that the gearbox control device fitted to car No. 7 (Mika Hakkinen) Marlboro McLaren Peugeot at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix was in breach of the Formula One Technical Regulations.They escaped punishment because they convinced the FIA that they didn't "intend to infringe the regulations" and were told to remove the illegal aid but still got their 100000$ fine for failing to hand over their data on time (just like Benetton). The official FIA press release here: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-press-release-on-benetton-mclaren-hearing/919/ Same with Benetton who were found to have the LC system in their software but convinced the FIA that they never used or intended to use it. Actual official statement: "The FIA had enlisted software analysts Liverpool Data Research Associates to inspect Benetton’s source code, and ruled that “according to LDRA the best evidence is that Benetton was not using ‘launch control’ (an automatic start system) at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. Had the evidence proved they were, the World Motor Sport Council would have been invited to exclude them from the World Championship. Given the evidence available, such a course of action would obviously have been wrong.” (Motorsport Magazine; Page 14, September 1994). In other words both teams got away due to the presumption of innocence.

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

 Larini leaked information to the press that he only used it during a single practice session, never in qualifying or an actual race. You also didn't mention that both Larini and Ferrari later denied the claim, this is actually an odd chain of events. 

 I didn't mention it because it's clearly stated in that Motorsport Magazine timeline article that I posted. Of course Ferrari and Larini denied it afterwards. The same way that Benetton or McLaren or anyone else denied any wrong doing. Doesn't mean either of them were telling the truth though. The same line of defense (i.e. the systems are redundant and only used in training/practice) was also used by other teams who had the TC/LC systems in their code. Fact is, numerous teams were found to have it but not a single team - including Benetton - were found guilty of using it and none received any punishment. Besides one of the links I provided actually documents how FIA found that Ferrari used the engine rev limiter illegally and were told to remove it once it was discovered. They were also found to not have correctly adhered to the cut holes in the airbox rule after their win in Hockenheim yet that wasn't punished either (source: https://www.racefans.net/2014/07/31/1994-german-grand-prix-flashback/)

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

  Going back to the launch control which supposedly gave quicker starts, Following San Marino, while the investigation was pending, but so when the heat was put on Benetton, Schuey did mysteriously have a decline in many areas, had they stopped doing what they were being accused off? Big reductions in fastest laps and race wins. It reminded me of Ferrari last season, there were rumors of Ferrari and the legitimacy of their battery season, not was said, but as the heat was cranked up they slowed down and seemed to have lost their straight line speed they had prior to allegations. 

Results after 1994 San Marino and pending investigation:

Monaco: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
Spain: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill
Canada: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
France: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: P1 Schumacher
Silverstone: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: Hill (Schumacher disqualified)
Germany: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Berger (Schumacher DNF)
Hungary: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
Spa: Quali: P1 Barichello; Race: P1 Schumacher (disqualified afterwards for excessive plank wear)
Monza: Quali: P1 Alesi; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher didn't participate due to his ban)
Portugal: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher still banned)
Jerez: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher 
Japan: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill
Adelaide: Well we know how that went... Anyway Mansell was P1 both in quali and the race.

Overall, hardly a reduction in performance and race wins during/after the investigation and doesn't support the idea that they stopped doing whatever they've been doing prior to that. 

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

 No way am I taking away his abaility or his 6 other titles, there was just to much from Benetton in a single season, not to mention the skidblock in 1994 which got him disqualified from the Belgium GP.

It's interesting you mention the skid block; I never disputed that ban as it was proven by scrutineering and Benetton/Schumacher received their punishment. It's also interesting that Ferrari apparently had the skid block on Berger's car worn beyond the legal limit at Hockenheim already (the first race that the 10mm skid block was introduced and the one Ferrari went on to win); unfortunately I can't find any sources online on that now so nevermind.

2 hours ago, MUFC said:

 I don't give Senna a free pass, do I see him as the greatest? I certainly do, he drove prior to driver aids, and the competition during his time was really tough. Senna in 1990, Prost went into him, in 1989 in my opinion Prost took the corner way to early, I watched the whole race and his line and timing on that corner for the crash was different to his previous laps. Prost for me in 1989 turned in a full car length way to early, out breaking is illegal unless you can get to the corner before the opponent, and as long as its before the opponent can reach the turn or accelerate point of the turn, that was the rule back then anyway. If you don't believe me on this, there use to be a video via an overhead shotm is worth watching, it has changed peoples opinions, it did for me. Oh Prost.

I have all recordings of full F1 races since 1981 on my external HD... I'll give the 1989 another watch but whichever way you look at it, both Senna and Prost took each other out on two occasions in order to win the title. I respect Senna a lot as a driver; love the aggressive pushing-the-limits style but he was just as capable of dirty tricks and unsportsmanlike behaviour and put winning above everything else just like Schumacher. Anyway that's also a bit irrelevant.

 

[MUFC]

51 minutes ago, nudge said:

Yeah that's why I took my time to actually find and post reliable links to sources from well-researched books and respectable racing magazines and articles instead of just some random posts on some discussion board. "All but 4 teams" was meant in regards to fuel filter tampering (see my original post); it was based on Benetton's defense where they admitted that they have removed the filter and never even tried to hide the fact that they did and have provided a list of incidents and teams that got permission from Charlie Whiting and Intertechnique to remove it hence why they were cleared and weren't punished for Verstappen's fire in the pits. Other sources I quoted document other teams having the same or similar prohibited systems in their software and also being accused of cheating so I'm not sure why you'd say that "nothing can be found".

Yes you are wrong here. Benetton, McLaren, and Ferrari were the three teams that had to hand over the data in that particular case but only Ferrari actually did it. Both Benetton and McLaren were fined for delaying it. McLaren were not cleared of any wrong doing either; it was confirmed that the gearbox control device fitted to car No. 7 (Mika Hakkinen) Marlboro McLaren Peugeot at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix was in breach of the Formula One Technical Regulations.They escaped punishment because they convinced the FIA that they didn't "intend to infringe the regulations" and were told to remove the illegal aid but still got their 100000$ fine for failing to hand over their data on time (just like Benetton). The official FIA press release here: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-press-release-on-benetton-mclaren-hearing/919/ Same with Benetton who were found to have the LC system in their software but convinced the FIA that they never used or intended to use it. Actual official statement: "The FIA had enlisted software analysts Liverpool Data Research Associates to inspect Benetton’s source code, and ruled that “according to LDRA the best evidence is that Benetton was not using ‘launch control’ (an automatic start system) at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. Had the evidence proved they were, the World Motor Sport Council would have been invited to exclude them from the World Championship. Given the evidence available, such a course of action would obviously have been wrong.” (Motorsport Magazine; Page 14, September 1994). In other words both teams got away due to the presumption of innocence.

 I didn't mention it because it's clearly stated in that Motorsport Magazine timeline article that I posted. Of course Ferrari and Larini denied it afterwards. The same way that Benetton or McLaren or anyone else denied any wrong doing. Doesn't mean either of them were telling the truth though. The same line of defense (i.e. the systems are redundant and only used in training/practice) was also used by other teams who had the TC/LC systems in their code. Fact is, numerous teams were found to have it but not a single team - including Benetton - were found guilty of using it and none received any punishment. Besides one of the links I provided actually documents how FIA found that Ferrari used the engine rev limiter illegally and were told to remove it once it was discovered. They were also found to not have correctly adhered to the cut holes in the airbox rule after their win in Hockenheim yet that wasn't punished either (source: https://www.racefans.net/2014/07/31/1994-german-grand-prix-flashback/)

Results after 1994 San Marino and pending investigation:

Monaco: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
Spain: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill
Canada: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
France: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: P1 Schumacher
Silverstone: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: Hill (Schumacher disqualified)
Germany: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Berger (Schumacher DNF)
Hungary: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher
Spa: Quali: P1 Barichello; Race: P1 Schumacher (disqualified afterwards for excessive plank wear)
Monza: Quali: P1 Alesi; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher didn't participate due to his ban)
Portugal: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher still banned)
Jerez: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher 
Japan: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill
Adelaide: Well we know how that went... Anyway Mansell was P1 both in quali and the race.

Overall, hardly a reduction in performance and race wins during/after the investigation and doesn't support the idea that they stopped doing whatever they've been doing prior to that. 

It's interesting you mention the skid block; I never disputed that ban as it was proven by scrutineering and Benetton/Schumacher received their punishment. It's also interesting that Ferrari apparently had the skid block on Berger's car worn beyond the legal limit at Hockenheim already (the first race that the 10mm skid block was introduced and the one Ferrari went on to win); unfortunately I can't find any sources online on that now so nevermind.

I have all recordings of full F1 races since 1981 on my external HD... I'll give the 1989 another watch but whichever way you look at it, both Senna and Prost took each other out on two occasions in order to win the title. I respect Senna a lot as a driver; love the aggressive pushing-the-limits style but he was just as capable of dirty tricks and unsportsmanlike behaviour and put winning above everything else just like Schumacher. Anyway that's also a bit irrelevant.

 

I was actually going from your previous post when you said yourself that it was hard to find anything from 25 years ago. I did read the first link, and in the initial stages he did say in my opinion, referring to what he thinks. I agree they removed the filter, but did they have choice after it was found?

Not sure how I'm wrong on the Mclaren issue? Yes I agree they were fined, but this was for handing in the data after the deadline. The FIA themselves were satisfied that McLaren deemed it legal, should they have been punished? The answer is yes, but the main point is with Benetton. What is the reason that allegations galore were flying their way? Did the FIA have it in for them? Was it a witch-hunt? It wasn't just the FIA, it was a driver of their own team, and other drivers on the grid. these drivers as far as I am aware have never made allegations during their careers about teams cheating before. The reason I gear towards Benetton, isn't because of Shuey himself, only he knows if he knew of any wrong-doing, it isn't for us to say if he did or didn't. But it isn't just one accusation, its a few in one season, and it Benetton's case, the reason people point the finger is because of all these allegations, the fact that they won the title, and the other reasons in this paragraph. You literally said yourself that they were probably up to something, Mclaren and Ferrari would have had the same heat if they won the title or mounted a serious challenge.

I take your word on the Ferrari skidblock, they should have been banned, but we all know about Ferrari and their privileges. 

The Senna/Prost my view did change but your's may remain the same, not everybody is convinced, its each to their own on it at the end of the day.

 

[nudge+]

7 minutes ago, MUFC said:

I was actually going from your previous post when you said yourself that it was hard to find anything from 25 years ago. I did read the first link, and in the initial stages he did say in my opinion, referring to what he thinks. I agree they removed the filter, but did they have choice after it was found?

That first link is not some dude saying what "he thinks"; it's a well researched book with references and documentation. A great read regardless of what your opinion on this whole thing is. A lot of well-documented details that are hard or even impossible to find otherwise.

I'm confused with the meaning of the bolded sentence though. So just for clarification: the whole point of the fuel filter tampering allegations was the fact that Benetton removed the original filter from the fuel valve, it was alleged to speed up their fueling process and was thought to have caused that Verstappen fire in the pits. They never actually tried to hide the fact that they had the filter removed and as it turned out, other teams had written permission from the fuel system supplier to do it; this was mostly because there have been numerous previous incidents with the original valve with nozzles and leaks and whatnot and teams looked for solutions to it (removing the filter was one of them). Therefore, Benetton was found not guilty over Verstappen's pit fire and weren't given punishment for removing the filter.

23 minutes ago, MUFC said:

 Not sure how I'm wrong on the Mclaren issue? Yes I agree they were fined, but this was for handing in the data after the deadline. The FIA themselves were satisfied that McLaren deemed it legal, should they have been punished? The answer is yes, but the main point is with Benetton. What is the reason that allegations galore were flying their way? Did the FIA have it in for them? Was it a witch-hunt? It wasn't just the FIA, it was a driver of their own team, and other drivers on the grid. these drivers as far as I am aware have never made allegations during their careers about teams cheating before. The reason I gear towards Benetton, isn't because of Shuey himself, only he knows if he knew of any wrong-doing, it isn't for us to say if he did or didn't. But it isn't just one accusation, its a few in one season, and it Benetton's case, the reason people point the finger is because of all these allegations, the fact that they won the title, and the other reasons in this paragraph. You literally said yourself that they were probably up to something, Mclaren and Ferrari would have had the same heat if they won the title or mounted a serious challenge.

Yes sorry I misread the part of your post about McLaren; thought you said they were cleared off any wrongdoing completely and only Benetton were charged. So yeah, basically both teams got the same fine for delaying the data; both had illegal systems in their cars, both were deemed innocent and avoided punishment because of circumstantial evidence. Other questions you're asking are very interesting for sure, you can also add a few others such as why the FIA didn't actually punish ANY team for having illegal aids despite promising "draconian" punishments for it before the season? Why didn't Williams or any other team on the grid launch official complaint and ask for investigation if they were suspected Benetton were cheating? Why didn't Williams appeal Schumacher's title after Adelaide crash? Would Senna have beaten Schumi had he not been killed early in the season? We don't know the answers to any of those and we can speculate all we want; it doesn't make it a fact though. 
Senna did make allegations about other drivers/teams "cheating" prior to 1994. He was accusing David Leslie for running an illegal car in Silverstone 1983 because Leslie took pole position ahead of him haha. He used to get into fights with officials in F3 before that when he was getting being beaten by Brundle as he saw it as a big conspiracy against him whenever he wasn't winning. Martin Brundle even said himself that Senna "convinced himself that Benetton was cheating" and that turned into his weakness. Jos came out with his accusations only some 15 years later and admitted that he had no evidence for his claims; he just felt there was no way Schumacher would have been that fast while he struggled with his car. In fact he said in an earlier interview shortly after leaving Benetton that he couldn't handle the car as it was not suited to his driving style. So it just sounds like sour grapes to me; but once again as I said before I wouldn't be surprised if Benetton were up to something after all. 

 

 

[MUFC]

33 minutes ago, nudge said:

That first link is not some dude saying what "he thinks"; it's a well researched book with references and documentation. A great read regardless of what your opinion on this whole thing is. A lot of well-documented details that are hard or even impossible to find otherwise.

I'm confused with the meaning of the bolded sentence though. So just for clarification: the whole point of the fuel filter tampering allegations was the fact that Benetton removed the original filter from the fuel valve, it was alleged to speed up their fueling process and was thought to have caused that Verstappen fire in the pits. They never actually tried to hide the fact that they had the filter removed and as it turned out, other teams had written permission from the fuel system supplier to do it; this was mostly because there have been numerous previous incidents with the original valve with nozzles and leaks and whatnot and teams looked for solutions to it (removing the filter was one of them). Therefore, Benetton was found not guilty over Verstappen's pit fire and weren't given punishment for removing the filter.

Yes sorry I misread the part of your post about McLaren; thought you said they were cleared off any wrongdoing completely and only Benetton were charged. So yeah, basically both teams got the same fine for delaying the data; both had illegal systems in their cars, both were deemed innocent and avoided punishment because of circumstantial evidence. Other questions you're asking are very interesting for sure, you can also add a few others such as why the FIA didn't actually punish ANY team for having illegal aids despite promising "draconian" punishments for it before the season? Why didn't Williams or any other team on the grid launch official complaint and ask for investigation if they were suspected Benetton were cheating? Why didn't Williams appeal Schumacher's title after Adelaide crash? Would Senna have beaten Schumi had he not been killed early in the season? We don't know the answers to any of those and we can speculate all we want; it doesn't make it a fact though. 
Senna did make allegations about other drivers/teams "cheating" prior to 1994. He was accusing David Leslie for running an illegal car in Silverstone 1983 because Leslie took pole position ahead of him haha. He used to get into fights with officials in F3 before that when he was getting being beaten by Brundle as he saw it as a big conspiracy against him whenever he wasn't winning. Martin Brundle even said himself that Senna "convinced himself that Benetton was cheating" and that turned into his weakness. Jos came out with his accusations only some 15 years later and admitted that he had no evidence for his claims; he just felt there was no way Schumacher would have been that fast while he struggled with his car. In fact he said in an earlier interview shortly after leaving Benetton that he couldn't handle the car as it was not suited to his driving style. So it just sounds like sour grapes to me; but once again as I said before I wouldn't be surprised if Benetton were up to something after all. 

 

 

The first link was a decent read, my bad not sure where I got my opinion from, you made me do more reading these last 2 days then I did 3 years at uni.

Regarding the bold section you asked about, regarding the fuel filter tampering. I was saying they never really had a choice in removing the device as the explosion had brought it to light, to the eyes of the world. they were gaining advantages in the pits, with quicker stops, but proving it was another thing. If his car never exploded, they may have gone the whole season in this manner.

Regarding the Jos allegations, I remember him speaking about the allegations around 2011, some 7 years later. Not 15, but it is still time after the incident, but he maintains he did speak to his boss about Shueys car at the time, only he knows if he did.

I don't think Senna, would have beaten Schuey in 1994, Schuey won the first 3 races, and Senna claimed his car was nervous and hard to control.

If I don't respond to your reply, am at a birthday party, will reply tonight or in the morning.

[nudge+]

2 minutes ago, MUFC said:

The first link was a decent read, my bad not sure where I got my opinion from, you made me do more reading these last 2 days then I did 3 years at uni.

Regarding the bold section you asked about, regarding the fuel filter tampering. I was saying they never really had a choice in removing the device as the explosion had brought it to light, to the eyes of the world. they were gaining advantages in the pits, with quicker stops, but proving it was another thing. If his car never exploded, they may have gone the whole season in this manner.

Regarding the Jos allegations, I remember him speaking about the allegations around 2011, some 7 years later. Not 15, but it is still time after the incident, but he maintains he did speak to his boss about Shueys car at the time, only he knows if he did.

I don't think Senna, would have beaten Schuey in 1994, Schuey won the first 3 races, and Senna claimed his car was nervous and hard to control.

If I don't respond to your reply, am at a birthday party, will reply tonight or in the morning.

I think you misunderstood me in terms of the fuel filter... They removed the original filter from the fuel valve prior to the fire and that's why they were under investigation! They didn't change anything after the explosion and weren't required to; the fuel system supplier actually brought in completely new valves for all teams as that fire showed the faults and defects of the previous valves and could have potentially led to more similar incidents if not changed.

Have fun at the birthday party haha, not much to discuss here anymore... Besides I have a work deadline for tomorrow anyway.

 

[MUFC]

4 hours ago, nudge said:

I think you misunderstood me in terms of the fuel filter... They removed the original filter from the fuel valve prior to the fire and that's why they were under investigation! They didn't change anything after the explosion and weren't required to; the fuel system supplier actually brought in completely new valves for all teams as that fire showed the faults and defects of the previous valves and could have potentially led to more similar incidents if not changed.

Have fun at the birthday party haha, not much to discuss here anymore... Besides I have a work deadline for tomorrow anyway.

 

No worries we going in circles, was good debating. the art of debate is still alive I suppose. Debating without insults and dummies being spat out is refreshing as some people can get heated when people don't agree with them. I started properly watching F1 in 1995 and have only missed around 4 races on TV, have spoken to a few people about F1 but conversations were tough as they didn't know much about the technical side, but more about who was good behind the wheel. So its refreshing to speak to somebody who watched it prior to my time and has the races recorded to prove it.

Now get some work done you lazy sod lol.

Edited April 7, 2019 by MUFC

[nudge+]

3 minutes ago, MUFC said:

No worries we going in circles, was good debating. the art of debate is still alive I suppose. Debating without insults and dummies being spat out is refreshing as some people can get heated when people don't agree with them. I started properly watching F1 in 1995 and have only missed around 4 races on TV, have spoken to a few people about F1 but conversations were tough as they didn't know much about the technical side, but more about who was good behind the wheel. So its refreshing to speak to somebody who watched it prior to my time and has the races recorded to prove it.

Now get some work done you lazy sod lol.

Hehe work is almost done... Just a few more datasets and it's finally over. Haha.

Yeah I enjoyed the debate as well; always open to it as long as everyone remains civil and it's indeed refreshing to be able to talk different opinions without personal insults and the likes. To be fair I started watching F1 properly only in 1991-92 myself so we're pretty much on the same page here... Due to my father working with cars for most of his life and being involved at Nürburgring for a few years I had a lot of chances to meet and talk to many people who were part of the German racing scene at the time and were active in various levels of organising racing events as well as drivers and engineers etc. Nowadays I just have to stick to talking to people online haha.

[MUFC]

Cool in 1995 I was 15 and 16 in December, still young. Was another 5 years before I started picking up on the technical side of things, more I took in, the more I was shocked at how in depth and the level of impact a single component can have on the overall functionality of the car.  

[God is Haaland]

On 06/04/2019 at 19:49, MUFC said:

I never doubted his ability as a driver, and as for knowing him, you really don't know to personally know him when  his antics are being shown live on worldwide TV. Yes other teams bent the rules slightly, but what Benetton did was taking the piss. His partner Jos even made claimed, and I don't like this tosser at all, as did Senna. Even Flavio himself said we had TC on the car but never used it, do you believe it was never used on Schueys car? even when Jos spoke to Flavio about it he never wanted to discuss it, why is this?

Schumacher didn't get punished for allegedly using TC, Benetton got punished for removing a fuel filter, which - by the way - was done by many other teams.

When the stewards investigated the race starts in question, they discovered that MSC's start was way too slow for TC and that everyone around him had messed up, which is why he was able to pull away.

[nudge+]

Dutch GP at Zandvoort is apparently set to return to calendar next year already!

[Eco]

Watched the episode last night where they talk about Leclarc and Jules. 

I had zero idea of Jules, and what happened, and that tragic event. They should the beginning of the accident, but I had to look at it on Youtube just our of curiosity. Holy F***** 

[Tommy]

2 minutes ago, Eco said:

Watched the episode last night where they talk about Leclarc and Jules. 

I had zero idea of Jules, and what happened, and that tragic event. They should the beginning of the accident, but I had to look at it on Youtube just our of curiosity. Holy F***** 

I was on vacation on Malta when that accident happened. I didn't see it live, but my dad called me and told me that something horrible has happened, but he wasn't sure what exactly because the information leaked through slowly. 

 

I remember next race they prepared his car for the race as if nothing happened and as if he'd climb in any second. And then they just had it sitting in the garage as a tribute. 

[Eco]

The story definitely has me rooting well for Leclerc, but of course the documentary makes Riccardo look like a saint so those are my two favorite drivers. 

[Tommy]

3 minutes ago, Eco said:

The story definitely has me rooting well for Leclerc, but of course the documentary makes Riccardo look like a saint so those are my two favorite drivers. 

Leclerc also lost his father a few months later, and then with just 2-3 days to grieve, he flow to his F2 (GP2 back then) race in Azerbaijan and won it. But yes, the story is tragic etc. but Leclerc is a very likable and humble character anyway. Danny Ric is awesome, and of course he was perfect for Netflix. He's just entertaining. 

Anyway, one last word to Jules. This tribute is nice and touching: