Liverpool Discussion

[LFCMike]

19 minutes ago, Rick said:

I can’t make heads or tail of that information, at least not on my dinner break. Surely though, most clubs in this league are in a even/ worse position and they manage to strengthen. 
 

I was disappointed that we never made a move on Havertz because I think he’s a potential world class talent. I don’t want or expect us to be spending what Chelsea have spent, I know we aren’t the club who can do that all the time. BUT you cannot tell me that selling Lovren and not bringing in a replacement makes good business sense. Same if we let Gini go and don’t bring in Thiago. I want to wait until the window is open to see what happens with the squad. 

Other clubs are taking out loans. Liverpool aren't prepared to do that

[LFCMike]

31 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Your owners aren't benefactors, they're businessmen like any other and they bought Liverpool to make money. It just so happens to success on the pitch leads to money off the pitch but they are not going to be funding when they see it as unnecessary. Let's not forget their attempts to raise ticket prices, furlough staff etc, it's only because of Liverpool's relatively belligerent fanbase that they've changed course on these things. Football clubs will never properly a part of the community until we have part fan ownership.

They got the club on the cheap and they will make a huge profit whenever they come to sell. The investments in the stadium and Kirkby have been done in the form of interest free loans and that's absolutely fine. When we were going through all that shit with Hicks and Gillett everyone kept saying they just wanted the club to spend what it earned rather than it being taken up by £30m+ interest payments each year. 

My issue with them was always the transfer strategy and no one can say that it was working pre-Klopp. Appointing a proper manager like Klopp has been a huge reason why it has worked over the last few years

[The Artful Dodger]

I'm not denying their strategy has been right so far, and financial prudence should never be sniffed at. Just some of the disappointment from Liverpool fans is odd given we know full well who these people are and how they operate. With Klopp you have every chance of being winners again next year,  but with such a crammed fixture list I think it's an incredibly tough ask given the squads Man City and now Chelsea have.

[Dr. Gonzo]

38 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not denying their strategy has been right so far, and financial prudence should never be sniffed at. Just some of the disappointment from Liverpool fans is odd given we know full well who these people are and how they operate. With Klopp you have every chance of being winners again next year,  but with such a crammed fixture list I think it's an incredibly tough ask given the squads Man City and now Chelsea have.

The disappointment comes from being league champions but then not really looking to strengthen now that they’re on top.

Apparently they did the same thing with their rounders team after ending the Red Sox’s drought... before deciding they need to reinvest and then eventually won stuff again. So I’d have hoped they’d learn something from that.

[Rick]

Talk about us being open to sellIng Brewster. That’ll push me over the edge. 
 

Make no mistake, I’m forever grateful to Klopp, the coaching and the players for winning us the league for the first time in my life. My aggravations are not aimed at any of those. 

People can post stats and in depth financial figures to try and explain this lack of spending but it all comes down to one thing; stinginess. I’m not having this “we don’t wanna take loans and put the club in jeopardy” stuff, we hadn’t spent on the squad for 18 months before COVID 19, so I’m not having that being used at the excuse and reason to be this tight. 
 

Record prize money for a Champions League winner, record prize money for a Premier League winner. Club World Cup winners. New massive contract with Nike. Numerous lucrative partner and sponsorship deals. Where is all the money going? Other clubs are improving their stadiums/ building new ones and improving their training grounds. Clubs in a lesser financial position than us are doing this while also improving their squads. 
 

FSG have been great for us, but let’s not forget their missteps along the way. Trying to increase season tickets, wanting to furlough non playing staff. They are money oriented, every owner is and I understand that. But these lot take the biscuit, our net spend over the last few years is clear evidence of this. Klopp has worked wonders with this team, and our success if down to him and amazing recruitment. 
 

We aren’t fucking Burnley. If we aren’t prepared to invest in the team while it’s on top, to keep us on top, then what is the point? There’s no reward without risk, and hearing stories of the owners making the same sort of mistakes with the Red Sox is very worrying. I’m disappointed beyond belief that it looks like we are standing still while our closest rivals are all strengthening. I mean for fuck sake you have ‘mr unambitious’ Mike Ashley giving funds for 20m on Callum Wilson and we can’t pluck up the cash to bring in centre half cover. 
 

Happy with the team, not happy with the club right now. Think they are on course to waste this golden opportunity with these decisions. 

And I know that this will be an unpopular opinion with a couple of fans on here. Most likely be told to believe in Klopp. I believe in that mans abilities to no end, but when his hands are getting tied tighter and tighter it makes his job harder than it should be. He deserves to be given funds to improve, and anybody saying he will be happy having to put Fabinho in at the back, and lose him in midfield is naive to say the least. 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Rick

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Rick said:

People can post stats and in depth financial figures to try and explain this lack of spending but it all comes down to one thing; stinginess. I’m not having this “we don’t wanna take loans and put the club in jeopardy” stuff, we hadn’t spent on the squad for 18 months before COVID 19, so I’m not having that being used at the excuse and reason to be this tight. 

I can understand being frustrated with the situation, believe me I am too. But the club doesn't want to take out loans to place debt onto the club... and given with what Gillett and Hicks did with us, you'd think a lot more LFC fans would be appreciative of us not taking these sort of financial risks. It's more annoying that they aren't looking to spend invest a bit of FSG's money - which they surely have as the Red Sox and Liverpool are two of the more profitable sports sides in the world.

I think it's fair to say they've learned a bit from the Red Sox "World" Series win... and then the subsequent drop from that. One of the big issues there was the Red Sox didn't retain star players after winning. One thing we did after we made the CL final against Real Madrid was invest heavily in making sure our core group of very good players is tied down, for the most part, to pretty long deals. It seems out of all our key players, Wijnaldum's the only one that didn't get a bumper deal - and that might be because he was on pretty low wages and a long contract in the first place.

If they hadn't done that, likely what would have happened after we won the CL and got 97 points was Barca, Real Madrid, PSG, City, etc... would start circling and throw cash at us to take our best players away. Look at Ajax and how big clubs circle like vultures every time they've looked like they've built a decent side since the 90s. The vultures circle and pick away at that good side. We don't have unlimited resources and managed to improve the side and get good players on big long contracts... all while we've expanded Anfield a bit and are looking to develop a new training centre.

Yes, we've made a lot of money. But without taking out loans (which I'm not opposed to being adverse to getting massive loans while the financial circumstances in football are sort of up in the air), it's hard to see us progressing while spending so much on the club's long term infrastructure. Especially while the club isn't making anywhere near as much money as it would otherwise be making because they haven't been able to have fans in the stadium and clubs have been asked to reimburse broadcasters for broadcasting delays over covid (although apparently that's being spaced out over lots of seasons, to reduce this would cause for some clubs).

I wholeheartedly agree that it's very frustrating, especially when we've got the best Liverpool squad in our lifetimes (well... unless you're older than me, then you can maybe argue it's not that good... but I'd argue it is because they got 99 points last season) and arguably the best manager in Europe. And as fans, we want to see him get a big warchest and improve on this already really impressive Liverpool.

But we've seen before, that Klopp and Edwards aren't the kind of people who just spend for the sake of depth. Seems like if it's over a certain price... we only an effort to secure the player if there is a consensus that the player will improve us. Our most pressing signings right now are bringing in depth at CB and for the attack (Thiago's looking our most likely signing, but tbh if Gini isn't going anywhere... it's a bit of a luxury signing. I know Thiago's world class and better than Wijnaldum... but central midfield is certainly an area where we've got a lot of depth and quality).

Normally, we've seen Klopp and Edwards act early in the transfer window when they've identified the players they want. But I'm not sure this is a normal transfer window. Selling clubs are setting prices like covid never happened, buying clubs (other than the English oil clubs, really) are the only buyers that are acting like the transfer market is normal.

I suspect we'll make signings still during this window... I just think it'll be abnormal compared to how Klopp/Edwards like to operate because I think most of our business in transfer windows - in that they'll be working late into the window. Which we've only really ever seen once in Klopp's time with us - to secure Keita's signature (a year early before he joined us) and Virgil... which took us two transfer windows to get over the line.

[LFCMike]

I think some fans would be happier if we were 4th/5th and needing to sign four or five each summer just so they can get 'excited' over transfers.

[Rick]

6 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

I think some fans would be happier if we were 4th/5th and needing to sign four or five each summer just so they can get 'excited' over transfers.

I don’t get excited over transfers, I’m not 12 years old. We do need some holes filled in this squad, which is all I’m asking for. Havertz would have been a luxury and one I would have loved, mind. 
 

@Dr. Gonzo Some good points there mate. Signing our best players to long term contracts after that CL win was massive. 
 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Rick

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Rick said:

 

@Dr. Gonzo Some good points there mate. Signing our best players to long term contracts after that CL win was massive. 

Some people think FSG are really just in this for the short term, to raise our profile back up to where we "ought to be" and then sell the club on for a massive profit compared to the pretty cheap price the world's greatest Chelsea fan, Christian Purslow (he should be knighted for getting rid of Gillett and Hicks, tbh, the absolute genius) authorising the sale at a very low price.

I don't agree with that assessment of FSG though. They bought FSG because John Henry's from Boston and he wanted to own the side and "break their curse" - and it was a FSG employee & friend of his that convinced Henry that Liverpool were the "Red Sox of England" and they'd also need a cursebreaker owner. The way they operate with Red Sox and with us has been trying to be as "self-sustainable" as possible - I think with the impact of covid, our caution with the finances is a reflection of that self-sustainability.

[LFCMadLad]

Look, there is what, 4/5 weeks of the transfer window left yet?!

We have 3/4 fringe players that the club probably want to sell to raise funds and im sure if we manage that then we will see 1 or 2 new faces coming in.

I'd much rather that than loans being taken out against the club. 

[LFCMike]

9 minutes ago, Rick said:

I don’t get excited over transfers, I’m not 12 years old. We do need some holes filled in this squad, which is all I’m asking for. 

Why would selling Brewster push you over the edge? He's fourth, probably fifth choice for that central attacking position. I also get the feeling Klopp doesn't really fancy him.The talk is that there will be a buy back clause so I don't really see an issue with it if it was helping fund another signing.

Love how you're just willing to ignore the financials which do a very good job of explaining why Liverpool won't take unnecessary risks at the moment. 

[Rick]

2 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Why would selling Brewster push you over the edge? He's fourth, probably fifth choice for that central attacking position. I also get the feeling Klopp doesn't really fancy him.The talk is that there will be a buy back clause so I don't really see an issue with it if it was helping fund another signing.

Love how you're just willing to ignore the financials which do a very good job of explaining why Liverpool won't take unnecessary risks at the moment. 

 We play with a front three, so he's really second or third choice. Why weaken our attacking areas by letting him go? He scored 1 in 2 at Swansea, he clearly has talent as a goalscorer and can be a great option off the bench.

The financials are a good excuse for the last 6 months but the previous 12-18 months still shows real reluctance to strengthen the squad. Would you be happy to see continued lack of investment in the first team? How long do you think we can realistically keep this up and still stay roundabout 1st/2nd. Chelsea, Utd, Spurs, Arsenal...they arent going to stop investing, they can only improve on what they are. You expect these players to be able to put the same sort of shift in for another 2 seasons. These levels are insane, they need help.

[Happy Blue]

Can see Liverpool struggling for a top 4 place this season, maybe Klopp will get sacked 

[LFCMike]

3 minutes ago, Rick said:

 We play with a front three, so he's really second or third choice. Why weaken our attacking areas by letting him go? He scored 1 in 2 at Swansea, he clearly has talent as a goalscorer and can be a great option off the bench.

The financials are a good excuse for the last 6 months but the previous 12-18 months still shows real reluctance to strengthen the squad. Would you be happy to see continued lack of investment in the first team? How long do you think we can realistically keep this up and still stay roundabout 1st/2nd. Chelsea, Utd, Spurs, Arsenal...they arent going to stop investing, they can only improve on what they are. You expect these players to be able to put the same sort of shift in for another 2 seasons. These levels are insane, they need help.

As far as I'm aware he can only play centrally?

Mad that you're moaning about lack of investment over 12-18 months when the two biggest trophies we all wanted have been delivered in that time, the mind boggles. 

There's also a couple of kids who will play a more prominent role this season (Curtis Jones potentially has a big season ahead of him) but it's like they don't count because they didn't cost a fortune.

With the improvements of some players here already we're already potentially stronger.

Of course there's going to need to be investment at some point and ideally I'd like to see at least one more addition but if it doesn't happen I'm ok with that.

Start moaning if we stop winning. Or if we lose Wijnaldum without replacing him

 

[Rick]

Youre right, I should probably reserve judgment until the end of the window. My concerns over the squad stand.

[LFCMadLad]

Klopp has been prepared to be patient in the market, noting “there’s a long time to go until October 6. We will deal with our situation like we always did. I think the philosophy of this club is pretty clear. We will see how much we can, or how much we want, to spend and all these kinds of things.”

[LFCMadLad]

A great post i came across.. for some perspective....

 

Winning the league seems to have killed off hope. Do you remember when we’d sign a few players and then, regardless of whether our first XI still wasn’t the best on paper, we’d naively and optimistically go into the following season thinking, could this be the year? Could we finally do it? Gosh, I think we might you know.

Year after year we’d do it to the extent it became a cliché, “this year it’s our year”. Winning the league seems to have killed that giddy, naive optimism and I’m sad about that.

Why has that happened? Do you remember when we used to have a LB crisis? That went on for DECADES. Do you remember when we went years without signing a DM and we kept berating the club? Do you remember when we lamented the lack of local youngsters coming through? Do you remember when we grew frustrated that the club wasn’t improving on Anfield? Do you remember when we were in debt but still found £20m for Robbie fucking Keane?

I remember. And I remember going into almost every season still with that childish optimism of, “perhaps this could be our year?”.

Well it wasn’t, was it.

Now we’ve got a first XI which is better than everyone else’s. It doesn’t have a single weakness. We’ve solved our LB problem so well we’ve got the best one in the world and his deputy is better than every single left back that starts for our rivals.

That DM we wanted? We’ve got Fabinho. One of the best in the world.

Those local youngsters we hankered after? One’s been the best RB in the world for the last two years and he’s still only 21. His deputy is also a local lad who looks brilliant as well. Jones comes in and casually sticks it in the top corner to win a Merseyside derby.

Anfield? It’s grown bigger and more imposing whilst, importantly, still remaining Anfield. Our training facilities are now world class. Remember the shit pitch we used to have? Now it’s a fucking velvet carpet where we haven’t lost a league game for over three years.

Now we spend world record fees on defenders and goalkeepers and STILL make a fucking profit.

Why then this propensity of fans towards pessimism? That giddy euphoria we’ve been craving for 30 years, it’s here! Enjoy it. This year really was our year.

Hey, what about next year, eh? I really think it could be our year, eh? Look at what we’ve got…I really think we’ve got a chance, you know.

Fuck negative vibes about transfers. I can’t wait to get stuck into the new season and hopefully we’ll turn over a few sides along the way.

It could be our year.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I just want us to keep upsetting the rest of the country by being good.

[LFCMike]

On 29/07/2019 at 19:48, LFCMike said:

And bringing two or three in doesn't necessarily mean we'll finish as close to them again. I'd like one in but if it doesn't happen I think I've learnt to trust Klopp and whoever else is involved in transfers. Judge them in May

Last July the same conversations were had. 

As it turned out we didn't have to wait until May to judge because the league was won by January

Edited September 10, 2020 by LFCMike

[DeadLinesman]

2 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Last July the same conversations were had. 

As it turned out we didn't have to wait until May to judge because the league was won by January

 

[RandoEFC+]

Liverpool are going to be a really interesting case this season. You started to see elements of burnout just before and certainly after the lockdown kicked in last season. If you look at their last three seasons in context it's been an absolute Herculean effort winning the Champions League and the Premier League, made into an even greater emotional and psychological victory given that in both cases, they'd come so close the year before. Having banished the Godzilla of a monkey on their back by finally winning the first title in decades, it would be totally understandable for this group of players to subconsciously breathe that sigh of relief. It's not going to be easy for them to maintain the unprecedented level of intensity in every single game that's brought them this far because they've climbed the highest mountain now. At the same time, you'd be an idiot to bet against them coming back right at that top level. I do think they could do with some fresh faces though, as good as this team has been.

[Rick]

9 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Liverpool are going to be a really interesting case this season. You started to see elements of burnout just before and certainly after the lockdown kicked in last season. If you look at their last three seasons in context it's been an absolute Herculean effort winning the Champions League and the Premier League, made into an even greater emotional and psychological victory given that in both cases, they'd come so close the year before. Having banished the Godzilla of a monkey on their back by finally winning the first title in decades, it would be totally understandable for this group of players to subconsciously breathe that sigh of relief. It's not going to be easy for them to maintain the unprecedented level of intensity in every single game that's brought them this far because they've climbed the highest mountain now. At the same time, you'd be an idiot to bet against them coming back right at that top level. I do think they could do with some fresh faces though, as good as this team has been.

This is what I’ve been trying to put across. Albeit, not nearly as well articulated. 
 

You get called a non-believer or a whinging  bastard by voicing any concerns on here. Think there’s a few that are stuck in a red tinted bubble and refuse to see the long term picture. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Rick

[RandoEFC+]

I mean, I can see both points of view. You've established yourselves as the team to beat, now is the time to make it into a real dynasty again like Man Utd did under Ferguson, rather than one exceptional Liverpool side that slowly fades with age and players moving on to new challenges. However, there are practicalities and if the money isn't there, it isn't there. You could also argue that players like Curtis Jones and Neco Williams save you from spending money on new players in those positions.

I still think it's easy top two for Liverpool this season. I can't see Chelsea, Man Utd or Arsenal catching you. You could easily win the league again if you get the momentum up. I think a back to their best Man City could pip you to the post but there's no guarantee that's what they'll be. They haven't made wholesale improvements to their own options and I really don't think Ake is the man to fill that Kompany-shaped void in the defence and the dressing room. Transfer window remains open though.

[LFCMike]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Liverpool are going to be a really interesting case this season. You started to see elements of burnout just before and certainly after the lockdown kicked in last season. If you look at their last three seasons in context it's been an absolute Herculean effort winning the Champions League and the Premier League, made into an even greater emotional and psychological victory given that in both cases, they'd come so close the year before. Having banished the Godzilla of a monkey on their back by finally winning the first title in decades, it would be totally understandable for this group of players to subconsciously breathe that sigh of relief. It's not going to be easy for them to maintain the unprecedented level of intensity in every single game that's brought them this far because they've climbed the highest mountain now. At the same time, you'd be an idiot to bet against them coming back right at that top level. I do think they could do with some fresh faces though, as good as this team has been.

It's fair to raise the point about form pre and post lockdown but equally, that can be attributed to the job basically being done at that point. People will point to the Atletico tie too but the truth is Liverpool were actually very good in that second leg and they go through if Alisson was fit.

3 hours ago, Rick said:

This is what I’ve been trying to put across. Albeit, not nearly as well articulated. 
 

You get called a non-believer or a whinging  bastard by voicing any concerns on here. Think there’s a few that are stuck in a red tinted bubble and refuse to see the long term picture. 

You know that I don't wear red tinted specs when it comes to those running the club. I was more critical than anyone of the way they were doing things before Klopp, even up until 2-3 years ago if you like. I will call them out when they make stupid calls such as the furlough or copyright situations. What I don't think you can keep banging on about is way they've operated on football matters in recent years. Klopp has backed up pretty much every thing he's said or any decision he has made.

Now is not the time to judge really is it. It's just tiresome seeing the same thing in every thread and on anything Liverpool related on social media

Edited September 10, 2020 by LFCMike

[Rick]

12 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

It's fair to raise the point about form pre and post lockdown but equally, that can be attributed to the job basically being done at that point. People will point to the Atletico tie too but the truth is Liverpool were actually very good in that second leg and they go through if Alisson was fit.

You know that I don't wear red tinted specs when it comes to those running the club. I was more critical than anyone of the way they were doing things before Klopp, even up until 2-3 years ago if you like. I will call them out when they make stupid calls such as the furlough or copyright situations. What I don't think you can keep banging on about is way they've operated on football matters in recent years. Klopp has backed up pretty much every thing he's said or any decision he has made.

Now is not the time to judge really is it. It's just tiresome seeing the same thing in every thread and on anything Liverpool related on social media

I’m not going to criticise the past decisions on football matters. They worked and have worked up to this point. But concern over burnout and expecting another gargantuan effort from the same small core of players is a fair one.
 

I just don’t want us to squander this sort of opportunity to really build a long term at the very top. Winning the league and CL has us in a rare incredible position. BUT I agree with you that it’s the same conversations being had (mostly by myself on here) and I’m tired of it myself. 

I’m just gonna embrace whatever happens in the next few weeks and comment after the window closes.