Premier League 2023/24 Gameweek 7 - 30th Sept-3rd Oct, 2023

[Stan]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

That Brentford non-penalty I've just seen is a joke too. Not even a remotely debatable decision. 

They should replay the game. 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

6 hours ago, Dan said:

I really do think it's rigged at this point. It's impossible that they're this incompetent.

It's just gotten too big for its own good. It baffles me how people are so sure this league is squeaky clean.

Don't say that. You'll have a knock on the door from Gary Neville, Jamie Carragher, Sky etc saying how the Premier League is the best league in the world and is squeaky clean. 

[Inverted]

It has almost gotten to a point where its more tinfoil hat territory to suggest that nothing is wrong.

The PL is not only awash with billions of pounds and huge financial incentives for everyone involved, but is increasingly a geopolitical football subject to interference both from the UK and foreign governments. The stakes involved and the forces exerted on the competition are enormous. 

The idea that a very chummy and insular group of barely competent refs, who spend half their time flying around the globe hawking their services to the highest bidder, who are accountable to noone, and who vigorously resist any kind of transparency which is common in other sports, can be trusted to safeguard it seems increasingly naive.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Inverted

[Stan]

I can't see anyone anywhere saying that nothing is wrong with the current system. 

Also not sure what refs going over to UAE is actually that much of a big issue to make out (it is an issue, just that VAR itself is a bigger one). Not actually that different to officials going over to far ends of Europe and then officiating at the weekend. 

[RandoEFC+]

There's not a conspiracy. I'm sorry, but there just isn't. You can't fix or rig a football match and the fact that Liverpool were within one minute of a draw away to one of the strongest opponents in the league despite having two red cards and a legitimate goal disallowed should be all the evidence you need that even if someone wanted to affect the outcome of a football match or season then it would be basically impossible for a team of officials to do so effectively without it being explicitly witnessed by millions of people across the world.

Yes, there should be more transparency, there should be more accountability for referees but can we at least screw our heads back on here and stop making out like they're discriminating against anyone? They're just shite. Who would even want to rig a match in favour of Spurs against Liverpool? Why would they? These shocking decisions happen every weekend. This is one of the worst examples but it's not the only one of its magnitude.

Just because The Anfield Wrap might have tweeted that there's a conspiracy and RAWK have said the match should be replayed or the Premier League has no integrity and 25,000 other angry Liverpool fans have liked or retweeted it doesn't make it true. It's forgivable to cry conspiracy in the heat of the moment but you've had two nights to sleep it off so continuing to read these claims on a Monday morning is just starting to get a bit silly. It's time for everyone to put their big-boy pants back on now.

[Gunnersaurus]

43 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

There's not a conspiracy. I'm sorry, but there just isn't. You can't fix or rig a football match and the fact that Liverpool were within one minute of a draw away to one of the strongest opponents in the league despite having two red cards and a legitimate goal disallowed should be all the evidence you need that even if someone wanted to affect the outcome of a football match or season then it would be basically impossible for a team of officials to do so effectively without it being explicitly witnessed by millions of people across the world.

Yes, there should be more transparency, there should be more accountability for referees but can we at least screw our heads back on here and stop making out like they're discriminating against anyone? They're just shite. Who would even want to rig a match in favour of Spurs against Liverpool? Why would they? These shocking decisions happen every weekend. This is one of the worst examples but it's not the only one of its magnitude.

Just because The Anfield Wrap might have tweeted that there's a conspiracy and RAWK have said the match should be replayed or the Premier League has no integrity and 25,000 other angry Liverpool fans have liked or retweeted it doesn't make it true. It's forgivable to cry conspiracy in the heat of the moment but you've had two nights to sleep it off so continuing to read these claims on a Monday morning is just starting to get a bit silly. It's time for everyone to put their big-boy pants back on now.

I don't think there's a conspiracy. But there may well be bribes. The problem is the mistake on the weekend was so bad it would be such a risk. The referee could get sacked or demoted for it. If you were gonna take a bribe you would do it for something you could get away with. Also I'm not gonna get into referee standards again because I can't be bothered. But humans are remarkable good at not seeing things that are right in front of their face. A lot of people think(which is partly promoted by the media)  that because of var there won't be any mistakes but the human brain doesn't work that way.  And actually pretty easy to miss something right infront of you. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Gunnersaurus

[RandoEFC+]

55 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

I don't think there's a conspiracy. But there may well be bribes. The problem is the mistake on the weekend was so bad it would be such a risk. The referee could get sacked or demoted for it. If you were gonna take a bribe you would do it for something you could get away with. Also I'm not gonna get into referee standards again because I can't be bothered. But humans are remarkable good at not seeing things that are right in front of their face. A lot of people think(which is partly promoted by the media)  that because of var there won't be any mistakes but the human brain doesn't work that way.  And actually pretty easy to miss something right infront of you. 

The mistake made at the weekend was poor communication between the referee and the VAR official. I don't see how that could be allowed to happen, it's an absolutely horrendous error. But I think it's why people are (correctly in my opinion) kicking up a fuss about Darren England jetting off to the Middle East to make extra money refereeing in the UAE. If the human error made was as simple as him not having seen what had happened with the on-pitch decision, then it calls into question why? Jet lag and general tiredness are up there with the most plausible of possible explanations. They're supposed to be professionals, and like it or not, a part of your job is to turn up fit for work.

My profession is teaching and I'm based on the Isle of Man. If I was coming into work half-awake every Monday morning because I was flying off to Dubai every weekend and getting back at 2am on Sunday night because someone was paying me £1000 an hour to privately tutor their kids then I'd be getting called out by my employer. People don't have a right to make money from a "side-hustle" if it impacts upon their ability to do the primary job they're paid to do properly and if it can be suggested that this little trip to the UAE left him less than 100% fit to do his job in the VAR room on Sunday then that needs looking into I'm afraid.

Bribes though - sorry, not buying it. Football is unpredictable. Say Spurs or a Spurs fan wanted to bribe the referee to help them beat Liverpool and paid them £5 million. A) Spurs might be able to win anyway so it's a waste of money. B) Spurs might lose or draw even if the referee manages to make a couple of key decisions in their favour so it's a waste of money. C) There might not even be a marginal call in the match to enable the referee to influence the match in any significant fashion so it's a waste of money.

[Danny]

Matches being replayed is a laughable shout tbh, should matches have been replayed before VAR? What about every other match where a clear error has been made by the ref? You’re replaying the whole season at that rate. Liverpool were fucked over by that goal, and the level of mistake that was made shows how negligent the system can be, but the actual end product, a goal disallowed that should have stood, is no different to the many other VAR talking points that happen each week.

[Inverted]

I'm not saying there is bribery in the PL but I do not remotely understand the argument that football is too unpredictable to be corrupted.

I mean it might be in a sense true that football is too random to be manipulated with absolute reliability but that has certainly not stopped there from being countless cases of refereeing corruption worldwide since basically forever. 

And even if the end results are extremely hard to manipulate, you can certainly tip the scales, or at least secure certain outcomes - number of bookings, who gets booked, who scored first, etc.

 

[Gunnersaurus]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

The mistake made at the weekend was poor communication between the referee and the VAR official. I don't see how that could be allowed to happen, it's an absolutely horrendous error. But I think it's why people are (correctly in my opinion) kicking up a fuss about Darren England jetting off to the Middle East to make extra money refereeing in the UAE. If the human error made was as simple as him not having seen what had happened with the on-pitch decision, then it calls into question why? Jet lag and general tiredness are up there with the most plausible of possible explanations. They're supposed to be professionals, and like it or not, a part of your job is to turn up fit for work.

My profession is teaching and I'm based on the Isle of Man. If I was coming into work half-awake every Monday morning because I was flying off to Dubai every weekend and getting back at 2am on Sunday night because someone was paying me £1000 an hour to privately tutor their kids then I'd be getting called out by my employer. People don't have a right to make money from a "side-hustle" if it impacts upon their ability to do the primary job they're paid to do properly and if it can be suggested that this little trip to the UAE left him less than 100% fit to do his job in the VAR room on Sunday then that needs looking into I'm afraid.

Bribes though - sorry, not buying it. Football is unpredictable. Say Spurs or a Spurs fan wanted to bribe the referee to help them beat Liverpool and paid them £5 million. A) Spurs might be able to win anyway so it's a waste of money. B) Spurs might lose or draw even if the referee manages to make a couple of key decisions in their favour so it's a waste of money. C) There might not even be a marginal call in the match to enable the referee to influence the match in any significant fashion so it's a waste of money.

I don't really disagree with what you have said. But stupid errors happen all the time. You can miss hear what someone said you can quite easily  misread things.  Although it was very bad a do agree. I don't agree that it's an error that no reasonable competent person would make. I see these things happen all the time.

However there does have to be repercussions I do agree. However he has been suspended I think. I know there is a point based systems and the better referees get bigger games with more money. Whether referees should be demoted more often depends on whether you have better referees to replace them with.

As for the bribes. I'm not saying I think there are bribes. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was. Someone  could be bribed to try to influence a game best they can.

Someone I worked with from Bulgaria told me there is mass corruption iver there so its not totally un heard of. Also didn't a referee never referee another game in la liga after sending Ronaldo of?

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

We’ve seen instances of corruption in Italy and Spain… but it could never happen in the UK? Why?

If FSG owned the MLS and was flying out refs for a side gig in the US days before a match against Man City… would that be ok?

Ethical rules exist not just to avoid corruption, but also to avoid the appearance of corruption.

The club asked to hear they VAR audio and were denied by Webb, so without any real transparency and with the appearance of corruption, they’re really just inviting these conspiracy theories.

Turns out for PMGOL to have accountability it takes more than Webb just saying “we have accountability.”

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We’ve seen instances of corruption in Italy and Spain… but it could never happen in the UK? Why?

If FSG owned the MLS and was flying out refs for a side gig in the US days before a match against Man City… would that be ok?

Ethical rules exist not just to avoid corruption, but also to avoid the appearance of corruption.

The club asked to hear they VAR audio and were denied by Webb, so without any real transparency and with the appearance of corruption, they’re really just inviting these conspiracy theories.

Turns out for PMGOL to have accountability it takes more than Webb just saying “we have accountability.”

Are all clubs who ask to hear VAR within the immediate aftermath allowed to? Has that happened before and it's been released when a club asks? Is it just Liverpool in this respect who have been denied? Maybe they're saving it for that monthly programme they do. 

I'd say that programme they do is more transparent than they've ever been (baby steps!). Ultimately the ideal would be to hear it every time there's a check/contentious decision as it happens like when a decision is made in NFL, Cricket or Rugby. 

Agree that they need to display accountability in different ways, but pandering to each club's reasoning saying they need to hear the VAR isn't necessarily the way to go for now. Clubs will just ask for every single decision to be released. 

[Gunnersaurus]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We’ve seen instances of corruption in Italy and Spain… but it could never happen in the UK? Why?

If FSG owned the MLS and was flying out refs for a side gig in the US days before a match against Man City… would that be ok?

Ethical rules exist not just to avoid corruption, but also to avoid the appearance of corruption.

The club asked to hear they VAR audio and were denied by Webb, so without any real transparency and with the appearance of corruption, they’re really just inviting these conspiracy theories.

Turns out for PMGOL to have accountability it takes more than Webb just saying “we have accountability.”

Like I said didn't the ref who red carded Ronaldo not referee a game again that season in la liga? I don't think it's unreasonable to think there may be corruption. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

Are all clubs who ask to hear VAR within the immediate aftermath allowed to? Has that happened before and it's been released when a club asks? Is it just Liverpool in this respect who have been denied? Maybe they're saving it for that monthly programme they do. 

I'd say that programme they do is more transparent than they've ever been (baby steps!). Ultimately the ideal would be to hear it every time there's a check/contentious decision as it happens like when a decision is made in NFL, Cricket or Rugby. 

Agree that they need to display accountability in different ways, but pandering to each club's reasoning saying they need to hear the VAR isn't necessarily the way to go for now. Clubs will just ask for every single decision to be released. 

Every VAR decision should have the audio released during the broadcast. Letting them pick and choose isn’t really transparent, they’ll just do what they did before and pay themselves on the back for it.

Why the fuck do they need baby steps to work towards transparency? Is it because they need to work on their competence because it’s embarrassingly low at the moment? And they don’t want to embarrass the officials? Or is it because they don’t want to give actual transparency?

I suspect it’s because they lack integrity and accountability.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

Like I said didn't the ref who red carded Ronaldo not referee a game again that season in la liga? I don't think it's unreasonable to think there may be corruption. 

And Barca paying refs. And Calciopoli in Italy.

I’m sure 115 Charges FC in England though are just completely squeaky clean though.

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Every VAR decision should have the audio released during the broadcast. Letting them pick and choose isn’t really transparent, they’ll just do what they did before and pay themselves on the back for it.

Why the fuck do they need baby steps to work towards transparency? Is it because they need to work on their competence because it’s embarrassingly low at the moment? And they don’t want to embarrass the officials? Or is it because they don’t want to give actual transparency?

I suspect it’s because they lack integrity and accountability.

I agree with the audio being released. What I meant by baby steps is that it's taken this long since VAR was first implemented to just be able to hear the audio from some games. I doubt PGMOL will just suddenly choose to release all audio as it happens or just because a club asked for it. 

Competence is low, no doubt about that. They're just making a rod for their own back not being transparent, so I doubt it's anything vindictive or sinister. 

Why was there not this much furore about any previous decisions that have affected so many other clubs? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

18 minutes ago, Stan said:

I agree with the audio being released. What I meant by baby steps is that it's taken this long since VAR was first implemented to just be able to hear the audio from some games. I doubt PGMOL will just suddenly choose to release all audio as it happens or just because a club asked for it. 

Competence is low, no doubt about that. They're just making a rod for their own back not being transparent, so I doubt it's anything vindictive or sinister. 

Why was there not this much furore about any previous decisions that have affected so many other clubs? 

I’ve been giving these refs shit for years mate. Probably more than anyone on here. I think the biggest difference here is the evidence of corruption by taking a side gif for the league owned by City’s owners.

But the UAE shite with the refs in the VAR room has incensed me more than anything these refs have ever done before. There’s probably nothing that’s going to convince me those refs who took that side gig aren’t on the take.

Even if they just wanted some extra cash & it’s totally innocent - the appearance of a conflict of interest is overwhelming. They’ve basically put themselves in a position where no matter what, there’s no way for them to refute it in a way that seems believable imo.

Short of sacking those officials (Michael Oliver too, since he was there as the main ref) and banning any mid-season officiating of foreign leagues, regardless of team ownership, I don’t think I can ever take the refs, or the league for that matter, seriously.

[Stan]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’ve been giving these refs shit for years mate. Probably more than anyone on here. I think the biggest difference here is the evidence of corruption by taking a side gif for the league owned by City’s owners.

But the UAE shite with the refs in the VAR room has incensed me more than anything these refs have ever done before. There’s probably nothing that’s going to convince me those refs who took that side gig aren’t on the take.

Even if they just wanted some extra cash & it’s totally innocent - the appearance of a conflict of interest is overwhelming. They’ve basically put themselves in a position where no matter what, there’s no way for them to refute it in a way that seems believable imo.

Short of sacking those officials (Michael Oliver too, since he was there as the main ref) and banning any mid-season officiating of foreign leagues, regardless of team ownership, I don’t think I can ever take the refs, or the league for that matter, seriously.

So they could be totally clean, but because they went there you won't give them any benefit of the doubt?

They can't win then? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Stan said:

So they could be totally clean, but because they went there you won't give them any benefit of the doubt?

They can't win then? 

That’s what “the appearance of corruption” is - it’s why ethical rules exist for other professions. Part of maintaining integrity is avoiding putting yourselves in a position where you look corrupt even if you aren’t.

The fact the ethical standards of PMGOL are so low is absurd.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Dunno why we’re appealing Jones’ red though. I think it’s a soft red, but those have been given even if not every ref would give it.

Jota’s first yellow is worse for me, but it’s not really appealable. But I can’t see Jones’ getting overturned.

If I were Klopp I’d be tempted to just play them regardless and give a statement acknowledging there was human error in picking the players to start.

[Inverted]

I think theres probably some wording in the guidance that VAR for challenges needs to show them in normal speed if the point is to determine force/dangerousness. 

Which I don't think was the case on the Jones' footage which was played back. It's debatable if it would have made a difference but again its a question of whether the refs are even sticking to their own procedures or making it up as they go along.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Inverted

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think theres probably some wording in the guidance that VAR for challenges needs to show them in normal speed if the point is to determine intensity/dangerousness. 

Which I don't think was the case on the Jones' footage which was played back. It's debatable if it would have made a difference but again its a question of whether the refs are even sticking to their own procedures or making it up as they go along.

I think I remember that they show a still at the point they want the ref to see to make a decision on. It's what they've always done but I'm not a fan of it and don't agree with it. It doesn't give full context from the off and almost plants a seed in the mind of the ref that it's worse than it actually is (but not in this case as it isn't even a soft red). It's dangerous albeit not malicious. Just not something a player can do going over the ball studs into the standing leg. 

I think the footage should start from before any contact us made, at real time. Then if they want to slow it down from a particular angle that's up to them. 

[Danny]

Lib Dems vs UKIP derby tonight

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, Danny said:

Lib Dems vs UKIP derby tonight

I'd have assumed it's Tories v. Tories + some of UKIP tbh

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'd have assumed it's Tories v. Tories + some of UKIP tbh

Hammersmith and Fulham borough voted Labour last year  

Chelsea is full on Tory though so fuck them.