Catalonia and Independence

[SirBalon]

19 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

 

all this hassle is all for naught ........

 

even if 100% voted for independence the Spanish Government will not accept it.     I wonder why would the catalonias go to such lengths even if they know that it will not go favourably for them.

Demonstrating in mass always has an impact and it's been happening for over 100 years in Spain because this is nothing new.

What I find curious is the incredibly large amount of first generation Catalans that seem to be the most vociferous in all of this.  I'm talking about those who's parents emigrated from other parts of Spain to Catalunya.  But then again this occurs in other walks of life where those that feel something a lot more than those affected tend to be third parties with nothing better to do than to look for the next battle to fight.

We also have to understand that Spanish society in general tends to be like this.  There's always a reason to moan and in Catalunya the main favourite is how the great oppressor from 'La Peninsula' is taking away their freedom.

[bozziovai]

39 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Demonstrating in mass always has an impact and it's been happening for over 100 years in Spain because this is nothing new.

What I find curious is the incredibly large amount of first generation Catalans that seem to be the most vociferous in all of this.  I'm talking about those who's parents emigrated from other parts of Spain to Catalunya.  But then again this occurs in other walks of life where those that feel something a lot more than those affected tend to be third parties with nothing better to do than to look for the next battle to fight.

We also have to understand that Spanish society in general tends to be like this.  There's always a reason to moan and in Catalunya the main favourite is how the great oppressor from 'La Peninsula' is taking away their freedom.

you being in spain.    can you shed some light to what truly is happening between this so called OPPRESSION Spain has made to Catalunya ??    Of course, Martial Law has ended years ago, but why all this dissatisfaction from the Catalans ??     Is the GDP of Catalunya bigger than that of Spain that the Catalans have recognized that they are better off without them having to give their GDP to the main government ??

[SirBalon]

52 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

you being in spain.    can you shed some light to what truly is happening between this so called OPPRESSION Spain has made to Catalunya ??    Of course, Martial Law has ended years ago, but why all this dissatisfaction from the Catalans ??     Is the GDP of Catalunya bigger than that of Spain that the Catalans have recognized that they are better off without them having to give their GDP to the main government ??

I’m not living in Spain, I live and was born in London but my parents emigrated to the UK and I lived in Spain for 10 years (Valencia) aside from all ky summers as a child being spent in Spain etc... etc...

There is a strong national identity sentiment in Catalunya since almost forever but then again a similar thing can be said of other selective autonomous regions of Spain.

There are so many reasons that can be cited as to why they feel this way from culture, language and economics. Panflute used a quote further up which gives a brief understanding of some of this.

[Honey Honey]

Just got a breaking news notification to my phone saying the militia in Spain, er, I mean the Police, are firing rubber bullets at people. Already seen pictures of old women being dragged all over the place. Strange police force. The worst this side of the continent for sure, obsessed with violence.

Should have just let the the vote happen because it wasn't going to achieve anything. 

How can you vote to break away from a central authority in €1.1trn of debt and a central bank in Frankfurt when neither recognise the vote as legitimate and legal. Oh. You can't.

[SirBalon]

It's the Guardia Civil...  They are the military end of the police and funnily enough they're hardly visible in Catalunya but have been moved in recently due to the referendum issue.  This is the government's fault and not so much the police.  It's the government who enable these things.

[Stan]

36 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Just got a breaking news notification to my phone saying the militia in Spain, er, I mean the Police, are firing rubber bullets at people. Already seen pictures of old women being dragged all over the place. Strange police force. The worst this side of the continent for sure, obsessed with violence.

Should have just let the the vote happen because it wasn't going to achieve anything. 

How can you vote to break away from a central authority in €1.1trn of debt and a central bank in Frankfurt when neither recognise the vote as legitimate and legal. Oh. You can't.

 

34 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

The Spanish Police have always been cunts, they're glorified thugs at the end of the day. Obsessed with violence.

 

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It's the Guardia Civil...  They are the military end of the police and funnily enough they're hardly visible in Catalunya but have been moved in recently due to the referendum issue.  This is the government's fault and not so much the police.  It's the government who enable these things.

absolutely disgusting and quite distressing seeing all these clips of police brutality. The government enable it and the police execute it. Whether it's in theory or in practice, both are just as bad as each other. 

As Cannabis says, the police there are overly aggressive and thuggish to say the least. it's as if all morality goes out the window when they stick their uniform on and just have one aim which is to physically hurt anyone in their way. 

[Honey Honey]

A big chunk of any independence question is which authority to be obedient to. Good luck getting people to be obedient to a government that uses its authority to batter grannies and young girls. Plenty of waverers and fence sitters will fall off onto the side of independence from that.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, bozziovai said:

 

all this hassle is all for naught ........

 

even if 100% voted for independence the Spanish Government will not accept it.     I wonder why would the catalonias go to such lengths even if they know that it will not go favourably for them.

 

Pretty soon it becomes bad PR to just keep on oppressing folk, just ask this guy. The Spanish Government have well and truly made themselves look stupid 

[SirBalon]

22 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

A big chunk of any independence question is which authority to be obedient to. Good luck getting people to be obedient to a government that uses its authority to batter grannies and young girls. Plenty of waverers and fence sitters will fall off onto the side of independence from that.

 

This is something I’ve been preaching to those hardline Spanish flag wavers in Spain for years. Being hardline only achieves one thing!

I’ve been seeing the images which are embarrassing and disgusting. In times like these I’m embarrassed to have Spanish blood and I’ve been going on about how bad Spanish politics are for years. Spanish society in itself has a lot of issues and they have a part to play in general attitudes but all of this goes back to how tge reime used to get things done.  

[Honey Honey]

Those who usually throw rocks at tourists have found a new target 

 

[Machado]

3 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Should have just let the the vote happen because it wasn't going to achieve anything. 

This is the part I'm struggling to understand. If it's an inconsequential referendum why not leave people alone? Seems like an unnecessary display of force.

[bozziovai]

4 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Just got a breaking news notification to my phone saying the militia in Spain, er, I mean the Police, are firing rubber bullets at people. Already seen pictures of old women being dragged all over the place. Strange police force. The worst this side of the continent for sure, obsessed with violence.

Should have just let the the vote happen because it wasn't going to achieve anything. 

How can you vote to break away from a central authority in €1.1trn of debt and a central bank in Frankfurt when neither recognise the vote as legitimate and legal. Oh. You can't.

tsk tsk tsk.    why resort to violence.    the spanish government already declared that the voting is illegal so let the catalans just do what they want ( voting ) ..........

[Machado]

It's both inconsequential and meaningless. If it turns out like last time, nearly only those for independence will go to the voting booth. This is why it won't fail to pass  with a large majority (80%+), again.

What really matters is the regional elections and those showed that the majority did NOT vote for parties advocating for independence.

[Machado]

 

[El Profesor]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

This is something I’ve been preaching to those hardline Spanish flag wavers in Spain for years. Being hardline only achieves one thing!

I’ve been seeing the images which are embarrassing and disgusting. In times like these I’m embarrassed to have Spanish blood and I’ve been going on about how bad Spanish politics are for years. Spanish society in itself has a lot of issues and they have a part to play in general attitudes but all of this goes back to how tge reime used to get things done.  

Baloncito, do you think Rajoy really screwed up or was the violent repression planned all along as a diversion to the Gürtel case? 

In any way, this is a big PR loss for the central government and a big win for the separatist movement.

[SirBalon]

58 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

Baloncito, do you think Rajoy really screwed up or was the violent repression planned all along as a diversion to the Gürtel case? 

In any way, this is a big PR loss for the central government and a big win for the separatist movement.

Remember that Rajoy had to go through two general elections to be given the right to govern.  Even then it wasn't clear cut because as in most countries these days, the nation is split.  I think there are many reasons as to why he's gone down this route but the "camino" he's taken is the incorrect one and both he and his government have only made things a lot worse than what they were.  God only knows what will happen now because in Spain we also have a very big republican movement waiting to pounce.

Everything they've (the government) done has been the wrong way to do it and feeds the dissent into a false righteousness.

[The Artful Dodger]

It's weird how you've got all the right wing loonies crying for Catalonia.

People have a right to be heard but this ain't no romantic story, it's wealthy people upset about the tax they pay:

[El Profesor]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Remember that Rajoy had to go through two general elections to be given the right to govern.  Even then it wasn't clear cut because as in most countries these days, the nation is split.  I think there are many reasons as to why he's gone down this route but the "camino" he's taken is the incorrect one and both he and his government have only made things a lot worse than what they were.  God only knows what will happen now because in Spain we also have a very big republican movement waiting to pounce.

Everything they've (the government) done has been the wrong way to do it and feeds the dissent into a false righteousness.

Yes, it didn´t need to be that way. Catalonia is not Bosnia nor Tibet. Catalonians are not existencially threatened nor opressed, there isn´t ethnic cleansing, in fact many catalonians descend from people who came from other parts of Spain, right?

By the way, a thing that really bothers me is the fact that many anglophone journalists, having little knowledge of the situation but still wanting to show erudiction, are already starting to draw Franco comparisons, which only spreads more disinfomation and lies. This is not 1936. 

On the advance of the republican movement, what´s the argument for the return of the republic? And how is Baltasar Garzón doing as a politician?

 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

lol the Spanish Government have made a complete fuck up of this, if you’re a Catalan you’re massively upset tonight at this performance from Spain. 

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

Yes, it didn´t need to be that way. Catalonia is not Bosnia nor Tibet. Catalonians are not existencially threatened nor opressed, there isn´t ethnic cleansing, in fact many catalonians descend from people who came from other parts of Spain, right?

By the way, a thing that really bothers me is the fact that many anglophone journalists, having little knowledge of the situation but still wanting to show erudiction, are already starting to draw Franco comparisons, which only spreads more disinfomation and lies. This is not 1936. 

On the advance of the republican movement, what´s the argument for the return of the republic? And how is Baltasar Garzón doing as a politician?

 

 

The Spanish Primer Minister (Mariano Rajoy) is a representation of what Spanish society is as a whole.  You know, few people know what this is all about and fewer understand the complications that surround it.  What I do know though is how to dissect sociological disparities in my own walk of life.  I've made a career out of it and because I happen to be a child of immigrants, I have seen the differences between the British culture and the Spanish culture to a tee...  Infact (God rest his soul), my father used to go on about it a lot.  But it took him a long old while to own upto the fact that Spanish society is fucked.  Spaniards don't notice this and even when they go abroad to find their way in life because in Spain it's not so easy these days, it takes them at least 5 to 6 years to see where their judgement errors lie.

You can read all the news you like, you can associate via social media all you like with diverse cultures...  But until you're living in a different society that thinks in a different manner through nature, then and only then can you appreciate where your faults lie.  Spaniards (to put it simply) are natural moaners!  They're born to moan from your working class all the way through your middle class to your upper class.  All of them find a new battle to fight and to moan about.  Nobody talks about contemporary things or daily life...  That's left to the older generations who really DID live hard times.  This lot all feel they're intellectuals and what you have are real ones and then those that think they are...  It's a nightmare!  Spanish culture works via a label system in its sociological make-up.  You can't be neutral and neutral means suspicion!

I could go on and on about this but it will become very boring indeed if it hasn't already.  But just to say that what we have here is a dysfunctional culture that's living in a capitalist first world lifestyle.  It doesn't mix, it doesn't work and all it does is breed spoilt brats into this sort of thing.  If it wasn't this, it'd be something else and it will be which is why earlier on I bought up the republican movement (which is pretty big) too @Kowabunga.  

You're right...  This isn't the old USSR with all of it's oppressed cultures and neither is it the old Yugoslavia!  This is a bunch of idiots from my point of view.  Morons!  But they count!  They're a part of society in a mass and they should be understood and comprehended by the central government.  What we've seen this recent past is embarrassing.  But they won't see it that way at all because they'll be watching and repeating Mel Gibson's Braveheart time and time again.

[Kowabunga]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

If it wasn't this, it'd be something else and it will be which is why earlier on I bought up the republican movement (which is pretty big) too @Kowabunga.  

 

 

I've been summoned . My slumber has ended. What do you want to know? 

My input may be limited.

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

 But they won't see it that way at all because they'll be watching and repeating Mel Gibson's Braveheart time and time again.

 

Eh! TV3 didn't program Braveheart for the previous night. It was The Patriot.  Conversely I've been told TVE has programmed docummentaries of Spaniards in Borneo or something like that for the whole Sunday morning

[Inverted]

It seems the results came out as unrealistically pro-Indy. It probably always was going to, with it being legally meaningless, poorly supervised, and also subject to wide boycotts.

If the Spanish government had been reasonable, they could have sat back and ignored the result, and calmly pointed to all of those faults. Nobody would really have cared.

Instead, they've drawn massive global attention to the situation, and given a perfect excuse for any deficiencies with the vote - you can't criticise a vote for being disfunctional when you've used massive force to sabotage it. 

[SirBalon]

Just now, Inverted said:

It seems the results came out as unrealistically pro-Indy. It probably always was going to, with it being legally meaningless, poorly supervised, and also subject to wide boycotts.

If the Spanish government had been reasonable, they could have sat back and ignored the result, and calmly pointed to all of those faults. Nobody would really have cared.

Instead, they've drawn massive global attention to the situation, and given a perfect excuse for any deficiencies with the vote - you can't criticise a vote for being disfunctional when you've used massive force to sabotage it. 

Very few anti-independence voters would've come out today to vote considering everything surrounding the referendum from it being void and iliegal to all the troubles surrounding it.  If thee's any suppression going on it's anyone in Catalunya voicing any opinion against independence.  Then you have the central government making things 1000 times worse by resorting to old style Spanish right-wing regime tactics that were never necessary.

[The Artful Dodger]

If Gerard Pique gets battered by a cop then it's all been worth it, horrible cunt.

[Honey Honey]

Paul Mason is absolutely loving this. He's a 17 year old boy in a 50 year old man's body.