Catalonia and Independence

[Fairy In Boots]

It’s funny watching the same politicians that argue ignoring the brexit result react with such a fuss to this. 😂 Anyone would think it’s apartheid the way they’ve clambered to denounce the whole sorry mess

[Batard]

Videos are emerging on social media of Police kicking children and pulling the hair of women in attempts to remove them from a protest in Barcelona. I’ve seen two of them and whilst the Police must be intimidated by the sheer volume of people chanting at them; their behavior is despicable. 

[Stan]

12 minutes ago, Batard said:

Videos are emerging on social media of Police kicking children and pulling the hair of women in attempts to remove them from a protest in Barcelona. I’ve seen two of them and whilst the Police must be intimidated by the sheer volume of people chanting at them; their behavior is despicable. 

i've seen one where a girl is held by 4 riot police officers and then pushed down some stairs while her fingers are broken. And officers battering firefighters and members of the public while just standing there. 

[SirBalon]

The Spanish Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy in a speech failed to acknowledge the victims of the police brutality and only stated that the movement and vote was ilegal. I only hope something comes of this in terms of the authorities and government (including the Catalan autonomous government) being brought to justice. 

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

The Spanish Prime Morning Minister, Mariano Rajoy in a speech failed to acknowledge the victims of the police brutality and only stated that the movement and vote was ilegal. I only hope something comes of this in terms of the authorities and government (including the Catalan autonomous government) being brought to justice. 

appeals have been made to the EU about the way Spanish government and police have acted.

[Batard]

It’s the behavior of a dictatorship. The police are public servants, not their superiors or keepers. It’s ludicrous to see people raising there arms to show they’re unarmed and just want to vote being attacked. They’re only fueling the desire for separation within the country. 

[bozziovai]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

appeals have been made to the EU about the way Spanish government and police have acted.

i hope the EU will intervene and acknowledge the Vote Results in which most of them wants independence.

[Spike]

Catalonia should be free... but there must be repurcussions for breaking the Spanish constitution. Reparations for 10 years? 

What will happen to French Catalonia? Will thry be able to seceed from France and join?

[SirBalon]

26 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

i hope the EU will intervene and acknowledge the Vote Results in which most of them wants independence.

How can they acknowledge an ilegal referendum? The EU doesn’t have any jurisdiction over the Spanish constitution and never will. Plus the vote only had 42% participation which is under half of the just over 5 million inhabitants eligible to vote in Catalunya.

There are also many people reporting that they voyed upto 5 times in different electoral schools.

I repeat... There should be a referendum because Spain is a democracy (or at least it was before yesterday), but for that to occur, the constitution must be amended and talks must be held so as to set the rules for the referendum. You can’t just decide these things because the whole of Spain is involved in this, not just Catalunya. 

[Stan]

11 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

How can they acknowledge an ilegal referendum? The EU doesn’t have any jurisdiction over the Spanish constitution and never will. Plus the vote only had 42% participation which is under half of the just over 5 million inhabitants eligible to vote in Catalunya.

There are also many people reporting that they voyed upto 5 times in different electoral schools.

I repeat... There should be a referendum because Spain is a democracy (or at least it was before yesterday), but for that to occur, the constitution must be amended and talks must be held so as to set the rules for the referendum. You can’t just decide these things because the whole of Spain is involved in this, not just Catalunya. 

is that figure skewed because of the barbaric police actions - seen videos of them going in to polling stations and picking up the boxes and destroying them before they get to being counted. Not to mention those who were denied voting anyway.

as for the 5-time thing, apparently this isn't true because there's a universal system whereby polling staff would know if someone has already cast their vote or not. 

[bozziovai]

20 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

How can they acknowledge an ilegal referendum? The EU doesn’t have any jurisdiction over the Spanish constitution and never will. Plus the vote only had 42% participation which is under half of the just over 5 million inhabitants eligible to vote in Catalunya.

There are also many people reporting that they voyed upto 5 times in different electoral schools.

I repeat... There should be a referendum because Spain is a democracy (or at least it was before yesterday), but for that to occur, the constitution must be amended and talks must be held so as to set the rules for the referendum. You can’t just decide these things because the whole of Spain is involved in this, not just Catalunya. 

 

again - pity those people who were at the receiving end of the police brutality    

but, can the EU make sanctions against Spain ??   they shouldn't go unpunished.

[Honey Honey]

The referendum was illegal by the EU's own treaties. It can, as Julian Assange and other anti-establishment obsessives want, kick Spain out of the EU for the police brutality, or suspend their membership. A stupid idea that appeals to no one but radical nutcases chomping at the bit for independence by an up yours means.

If anything the brutality will probably guarantee that symbolic and cultural independence is now a real possibility. Spain, like all Eurozone nations, is becoming little more than a glorified local council, there will now be enough sympathy to allow an independent Catalonia to mirror that status, giving some people within it a sense of nationalistic pride. A €urope of smaller culturally based, ethnically based, maybe racialist based regions is increasingly likely as the purpose of currently drawn borders becomes so redundant as to be incapable of creating obedience to it.

[SirBalon]

22 minutes ago, Stan said:

is that figure skewed because of the barbaric police actions - seen videos of them going in to polling stations and picking up the boxes and destroying them before they get to being counted. Not to mention those who were denied voting anyway.

as for the 5-time thing, apparently this isn't true because there's a universal system whereby polling staff would know if someone has already cast their vote or not. 

It is true because four people proved they did with their mobile phones. Plus the numbers given were from La Generalitat d’Catalunya. Not from any centralist authority. 

[El Profesor]

1 hour ago, bozziovai said:

i hope the EU will intervene and acknowledge the Vote Results in which most of them wants independence.

 

The referendum was unconstitutional. It can´t be recognized.  Like @SirBalon said without an ammendment, catalonian independence is not possible. Not at least through legal ways. The spanish constitution has an explicit provision regarding the indivisibility of its territory. According to Section 2:

 

Quote

 

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to selfgovernment of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

 

[bozziovai]

28 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

 

The referendum was unconstitutional. It can´t be recognized.  Like @SirBalon said without an ammendment, catalonian independence is not possible. Not at least through legal ways. The spanish constitution has an explicit provision regarding the indivisibility of its territory. According to Section 2:

 

 

yes, it's very unfortunate. 

 

but the question that keeps ringing in my head is -- if Spain already knows that that Poll will be Vetoed by it's Constitution, why the fack did they have to resort to such violence.  It won't harm Spain anyway, i'm really sad about these events   

[SirBalon]

35 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

yes, it's very unfortunate. 

 

but the question that keeps ringing in my head is -- if Spain already knows that that Poll will be Vetoed by it's Constitution, why the fack did they have to resort to such violence.  It won't harm Spain anyway, i'm really sad about these events   

Because Spain’s government is shit and is also very radical in many aspects. But then again the state of Spanish politics in general is at its lowest possibly in its entire history. There is absolutely nothing to choose from unless you’re an extremist or off your head on magic mushrooms. 

Why would it be unfortunate that Catalonia can’t separate from Spain? Do you have family there?

[bozziovai]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Because Spain’s government is shit and is also very radical in many aspects. But then again the state of Spanish politics in general is at its lowest possibly in its entire history. There is absolutely nothing to choose from unless you’re an extremist or off your head on magic mushrooms. 

Why would it be unfortunate that Catalonia can’t separate from Spain? Do you have family there?

 

nope.  i don't have a family in spain nor in Catalonia.   and the reason i'm sad isn't about the failed attempt of Catalonia to break away from Spain, but it's about the harsh treatment of the police to the people.

it seems everywhere now there's violence happening.   i guess the word peace is overrated and should be changed in the dictionary with synonym as fallacy.

[El Profesor]

12 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Because Spain’s government is shit and is also very radical in many aspects. But then again the state of Spanish politics in general is at its lowest possibly in its entire history. There is absolutely nothing to choose from unless you’re an extremist or off your head on magic mushrooms. 

Why would it be unfortunate that Catalonia can’t separate from Spain? Do you have family there?

Damn, Balon. I was ready to use that image if you had said that the state of spanish politics was the ugliest in its entire history. 😂

[Spike]

1 hour ago, El_Loco said:

Damn, Balon. I was ready to use that image if you had said that the state of spanish politics was the ugliest in its entire history. 😂

That is the face I make when reading Brian v Teso threads.

[Kowabunga]

Some points.

Catalan Regional Police (mossos d'esquadra) is severely questioned by its peers (National Police and Civil Guard). The later say they failed on his duty as judicial police at intervening ballot boxes early in the morning. They  are blamed for throwing National Police and Civil Guards to the wolves. There are videos of mossos collaborating with the hidding of ballot boxes. It's not like it was unexpected, though... If Rajoy actually tries to enforce article 155 of the Constitution (and is successful), I get intervening the Catalan "conselleria" of Home Affairs, would be the first thing they would try to take away from the Catalan Government (generalitat).

Interesting read (in Spanish) about operational ineptitude of the Law Enforcement plan and "other issues" (Spanish officer in command wanting mossos to be exposed as traitors without having a proper plan B???)

Tomorrow  (well, today) a "political" (crazy, isn't it?) general strike is expected in Catalonia. Apparently it's going to be a paid holiday for people working for the Generalitat, as there is not going to be a salary discount for them.

Aside from the overall situation of mob rule in  Catalonia Populist Disneyland, two civil associations ANC (Assemblea Nacional Catalana) and Ómnium Cultural, as well as the Far Left identitarian party CUP coordinate the whole thing. A thing to remember, because probably this kind of "civil" organizations bypassing parlamentarian representative system could make a surge in another places fertile for insurrectionary politics.

 

[SirBalon]

25 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Some points.

Catalan Regional Police (mossos d'esquadra) is severely questioned by its peers (National Police and Civil Guard). The later say they failed on his duty as judicial police at intervening ballot boxes early in the morning. They  are blamed for throwing National Police and Civil Guards to the wolves. There are videos of mossos collaborating with the hidding of ballot boxes. It's not like it was unexpected, though... If Rajoy actually tries to enforce article 155 of the Constitution (and is successful), I get intervening the Catalan "conselleria" of Home Affairs, would be the first thing they would try to take away from the Catalan Government (generalitat).

Interesting read (in Spanish) about operational ineptitude of the Law Enforcing plan and "other issues" (Spanish officer in command wanting mossos to be exposed as traitors without having a proper plan B???)

Tomorrow  (well, today) a "political" (crazy, isn't it?) general strike is expected in Catalonia. Apparently it's going to be a paid holiday for people working for the Generalitat, as there is not going to be a salary discount for them.

Aside from the overall situation of mob rule in  Catalonia Populist Disneyland, two civil associations ANC (Assemblea Nacional Catalana) and Ómnium Cultural, as well as the Far Left identitarian party CUP coordinate the whole thing. A thing to remember, because probably this kind of "civil" organizations bypassing parlamentarian representative system could make a surge in another places fertile for insurrectionary politics.

 

I'm upto date on all of these things but they won't mean a single thing here in the UK and I doubt anywhere outside the Peninsula mate.  People these days are reactionaries and yesterday's obsessive brutality is the only thing that will be on people's minds which I also understand.  It sent Spain into another realm that I haven't witnessed ever.  Infact the only thing I can associate with this is back in the day in Northern Ireland.

[Kowabunga]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm upto date on all of these things but they won't mean a single thing here in the UK and I doubt anywhere outside the Peninsula mate.  People these days are reactionaries and yesterday's obsessive brutality is the only thing that will be on people's minds which I also understand.  It sent Spain into another realm that I haven't witnessed ever.  Infact the only thing I can associate with this is back in the day in Northern Ireland.

I am not necessarily refering to the UK with the later. The situation is that crazy, that this could actually be the plan:

https://twitter.com/J_W84_1962/status/914914091633971203

 

[SirBalon]

23 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

I am not necessarily refering to the UK with the later. The situation is that crazy, that this could actually be the plan:

https://twitter.com/J_W84_1962/status/914914091633971203

 

I've posted it so that it's visible to others although I doubt many will go all the way into translating it anyhow and I couldn't be asked because it's futile.

I can agree with how the strategy has developed but by no means do I think it was premeditated because I don't rate the intelligence high enough with all of this on both sides of the fence.  What I feel is that things have developed and that from the occurrences we have witnessed these past months (even years), people have interpreted it all as it has gone along.  There is no way in hell anyone could've planned this from the start because I won't believe it.

What I will say, I repeat and maintain, is that the central government could've dealt with this properly from the start over 5 years ago.  THEY are to blame from the root and the Catalan government have shown that they don't give a shit about their own people like they say they do because THEY are the ones who knew how this could all turn out especially these past few days as the forces began to mobilise...  THERE is where some have benefitted from their objectives!

Beating up civilians is third world!  It should NEVER come to that, old people, children and families should never be subjected to that and the government is there to defend its citizens.  Catalans are also Spanish citizens and are there to be protected and not be treated like they have been...  Infact the Spanish authorities have done NOTHING whatsoever over these past few years to protect the Catalans, to show that Catalunya really is a part of Spain and that they count.  That their issues count!  That their differences are of upmost importance because they feel that way.  Consensus and understanding is the way forward and from what I've witnessed, they, the governments of Spain and every authority on the Peninsula have fed the "wolves".  The "wolves" are the authorities and the minions are the internal fabrication made by the authorities and populated by its inhabitants.

Everything I read, even that which you have posted contains propaganda.  Spain is like that...  Spain and its culture doesn't know how to be a mediating balanced people because it doesn't run through our veins.

The problems we now have, the wounds created that are so deep have the 'mea culpa' etched over the whole of Spanish society.  Anyone that has an opinion (a Spanish trait) should look at their motives first and foremost.

Catalan separatism is a creation of the Spanish mind that's become terribly real.  But wait...  There's more to come!  Far greater than this in various different facets as walls are broken down by people that are sick and tired of being dictated to.

[Kowabunga]

16 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I've posted it so that it's visible to others although I doubt many will go all the way into translating it anyhow and I couldn't be asked because it's futile.

I can agree with how the strategy has developed but by no means do I think it was premeditated because I don't rate the intelligence high enough with all of this on both sides of the fence.  What I feel is that things have developed and that from the occurrences we have witnessed these past months (even years), people have interpreted it all as it has gone along.  There is no way in hell anyone could've planned this from the start because I won't believe it.

What I will say, I repeat and maintain, is that the central government could've dealt with this properly from the start over 5 years ago.  THEY are to blame from the root and the Catalan government have shown that they don't give a shit about their own people like they say they do because THEY are the ones who knew how this could all turn out especially these past few days as the forces began to mobilise...  THERE is where some have benefitted from their objectives!

I think the CUP have a very very clear idea of what they have done, how they did it, and what they are going to do in the future. I argue that the only two people with a grip on political power having a long term plan in Spain (outside the 4-year electoral cycle)  in the last 40 years have been Jordi Pujol and the collective mind of the CUP. 

Of course Puigdemont is a useful idiot!

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Kowabunga said:

I think the CUP have a very very clear idea of what they have done, how they did it, and what they are going to do in the future. I argue that the only two people with a grip on political power having a long term plan in Spain (outside the 4-year electoral cycle)  in the last 40 years have been Jordi Puyol and the collective mind of the CUP. 

Mate, I can't even start to argue this point with you because I don't know enough on it to be honest.  I have a basic to medium understanding on it with also a connection to family in Catalunya with diverse views on it all.  I used to follow it avidly but in latter times it has been very sparse and loose to say the least.  Infact I myself have become a basic shock reactionist to most occurrences in the world these days because my responsibilities have changed.  Having children does this to some people and I envy those it doesn't do this to.

I can believe learned individuals had a broad outlook on the future on what is the State of the Kingdom of Spain, but I find it very difficult to believe that anything was that of a great and detailed plan.  People may broadscope the future in certain terms, but people (especially Spaniards) are very one route and very tribal.  To change a mindset of a people isn't easy!  But it can be done in the sense of instant shock value and feeding propaganda...  More so today with internet and social media.

Consensus can always be reached if it's nipped at the bud!  It's like everything in life, even biological issues, isn't it.

This government has always been inept.  They're just a bunch of corrupt accountants...  Personal self obsessive accountants.  But I won't for a minute believe that anything else that's been available for over 20 years has been any different.  There ARE NO options and haven't been for a long while...  It's depressing and I can't see any positive outlook from any political party out there.  The two 'main' parties are incompetent and then there's this rise to fame from a bunch of intellectuals!!!!  WOW!  Imagine being governed by intellectuals...  Now that would be a laugh and a half and would really reduce the nation to absolute nothingness because they don't really have a plan other than to invent ghosts and once "defeated" move to the next one because there will always be ghosts.  When they can't find them so easily elsewhere they attack and bite each other.

Without a doubt Catalan politics has been a big player in all of this for over 30 years.  Their placidness lasted very little and they've always been very rancid on their outlook on anything other than their own.  A very xenophobic society to be honest and they've even managed to convert immigrant sons and daughters into rabid dogs.  But again...  This isn't only a creation of Catalan sociological mechanics.  The Catalan authorities and everything that revolves all of this have laid a base and believe it or not...  Those that fed the virus infested, rabid meat was the rest of the Peninsula.  The job has been made all that much easier by "Spain".

The cogs in the Spanish movement from the government to all the "patriots" will now offer their version of things but NOTHING to everyone else in the rest of the world will legitimise what was seen yesterday in a first world country by the policing authorities.  Those that are there to protect and not antagonise and physically beat people up for wanting to put a futile 'X' on a piece of paper.