Gareth Southgate Leaving England

[Gunnersaurus]

3 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Moving on from one of the best strikers in the world would be insane. He clearly wasn't fully fit at these EURO and shouldn't be judged by that. 

I mean to be fair does go around sniffing womens feet probably shouldn't take to much of what he says seriously 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think Southgate deserves credit for taking England on runs that we couldn't have imagined when he took over as manager. Expectations for England were so low when he came in - the national team were an embarrassment. He took us to 2 finals and a World Cup semi-final after things like the Iceland debacle.

I hated his brand of football, especially with this current squad at Euro 2024 - but let's be real, only Spain and Germany were truly looking to play football and I don't think Southgate was wrong in his belief that you don't need great tactics to go far in international football and that it really is about the moments of magic from big players. I just think Spain have proven if you've got that along with a style of play and an identity, rather than reacting after you've been scored on, you may just have enough to go on and win something in a way that'll have you remembered.

But I think he deserves a lot of credit for removing the toxicity from the England squad that was clearly there when the "golden generation" (who I think were a much better starting XI than anything Southgate's been able to put together, but nowadays we have a lot more quality all around) kept failing. And for where he ended up finishing in big tournaments.

We used to be a country where at best you'd think we'd get to the quarter finals and that's probably about it. He took us to wanting more and to actually truly dreaming of winning. We even got to a final in a country that isn't England.

but I hated his brand of football and now that we've got the aspiration and belief to go win something, I think it's absolutely the right time to go with a manager that's going to have England playing more on the front foot with the very strong squad we have. I honestly think the time to replace him was probably after the sad loss to Italy, but that probably would have been very harsh considering he'd taken us to our first final since 1966 and we'd only lost on penalties.

I think despite the dogshit football, he can leave with his head held high. He restored pride back into the national team and got England fans seriously dreaming for the first time since Southgate missed that penalty in the Euros. It's a shame he could never get over the line - but I think he's done a good job in laying the groundwork for a better manager to come in and try to do better.

And honestly, given his record in club football... I think it's fair to say he surpassed everyone's expectations of him by a long distance.

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Moving on from one of the best strikers in the world would be insane. He clearly wasn't fully fit at these EURO and shouldn't be judged by that. 

I'd also really like to know why exactly he was hardly ever in the box and why he basically was playing as a midfielder. Was he told to do that by Southgate? Was he just having a hard time moving from midfield to the box like normal because of his back issue & subsequently got that knock in the tournament? Or was he just... dropping deep because he felt like dropping deep?

I don't think Kane should be dropped, especially with a new manager coming in. He's still obviously a very good striker. Joint top scorer in the tournament too despite playing very, very, very poorly. But his position as a nailed on starter I think should be something any new manager evaluates.

What I'm hoping for is a new manager that builds the team around Bellingham but also finds a way to get Foden firing on all cylinders rather than being generally useless for England. The question is... how does it get done when it appears Kane, Foden, and Bellingham seem to naturally all want to occupy the same area on the pitch? Someone like Watkins might be the way to get more out of players like Foden and Bellingham. Someone like Toney, who's not as good as Kane, but took his very limited opportunities to be a menace in the box with just a short amount of time on the pitch also seemed to make us look more threatening in moments where being threatening was important.

Can Kane fit into an England team that's more focused on Bellingham and Foden? Was it a matter of tactics or a lack of tactical instruction that caused the way they all played in the tournament? I think these are big questions for the new manager to come out and why things like that shit tournament that replaced international friendlies for UEFA teams will be a big part of figuring out how England will look ahead of any actual tournaments in the future.

Having said all of that, I'm sure the next England manager is going to be thinking "how do I build a team that gets the most out of Bellingham, Foden, and Kane?" and Kane's likely going to be a big part of this England side for a while. But imo, I don't think he shouldn't be under scrutiny just because of how he performs at his club.

I think the new manager who comes in really needs to dissect why exactly our typical starting attack was largely ineffective and why big players like Bellingham, Foden, and Kane put in such disappointing performances - even if big moments of individual class from Bellingham and Kane turned to be decisive in one of the most shit England performances of the tournament. I don't think any player is too big to be dropped in the name of putting out a side that can compete while actually playing football that isn't painful to watch.

[Stan]

40 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Who should the new manager ditch from the current Euro squad? I'd say it's time to move om from Walker, Trippier and Kane.

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

[Stan]

40 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Who should the new manager ditch from the current Euro squad? I'd say it's time to move om from Walker, Trippier and Kane.

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Stan said:

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

You can say that again

[Gunnersaurus]

I just talking to my neighbour who stormed of saying we can't be happy with second. No we want to win but we have to look at our history. 

Since we won the world cup we'd reached 2 euro semi finals and one world cup semi final. We're not Germany or Brazil. Our tournament history has been no where near the elite teams. And suddenly its a huge failure to finish second. He also said that venebles was a great England manager even though we won two games at euro 96 in full time 

[Tommy]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'd also really like to know why exactly he was hardly ever in the box and why he basically was playing as a midfielder. Was he told to do that by Southgate? Was he just having a hard time moving from midfield to the box like normal because of his back issue & subsequently got that knock in the tournament? Or was he just... dropping deep because he felt like dropping deep?

He's used to advanced German tactics now, so he couldn't comprehend these simple English tactics anymore. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

I hope they at least speak to Klopp and Poch before they go English or promote Carsley. Given how many years they're worked in England, I don't think there would be the same disconnect we had with Capello and (to a lesser extent) Sven.

Best chance we've got of convincing Klopp to join is by telling him this: "English refs can't officiate your matches if you manage England."

But given he's said he wants to take a break because the pressure has been intense... I'm not sure there's a job in English football that comes with quite as much media scrutiny as the England manager.

It's worth a shot seeing if he'll take the job though.

6 hours ago, Coma said:

Sorry mate, Klopp is taking the USA job.

He rejected the US job a few days ago according to ESPN I think.

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

You can say that again

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Tommy said:

He's used to advanced German tactics now, so he couldn't comprehend these simple English tactics anymore. 

If advanced German tactics involve telling one of Europe's best strikers to sit around in the centre of the pitch and hardly fuckin' move, then I single handedly blame the Bundesliga for how bad England was in this tournament and we must send the SAS to rescue him from this farmers league 

[Michael]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

I agree with Trippier and Dunk needing to be dropped, but Walker still performs superbly for England. I know he is now 34, but if he keeps up the great performances, we should still play him. Walker was one of our best players at these Euros and he was the only England player to be named in the Euro 2024 team of the tournament. So in my opinion, we should only drop him if his performances drop. As of now, he is still playing excellently for England.

[Smiley Culture]

Kane has always dropped deep, it was one of the (many) things he did well at when at Tottenham and previously for England, getting the ball and holding it up allowing others to advance. Between the fact that he could barely move and that Foden and Bellingham didn’t quite have the understanding with Kane and how he was playing in this tournament as he had with, say, Raheem Sterling in previous tournaments, it was quite the achievement to score as many as he did. 

I can only see Kane retiring from international duty, not being moved on by a manager. 

[Michael]

24 minutes ago, Gunnersaurus said:

I just talking to my neighbour who stormed of saying we can't be happy with second. No we want to win but we have to look at our history. 

Since we won the world cup we'd reached 2 euro semi finals and one world cup semi final. We're not Germany or Brazil. Our tournament history has been no where near the elite teams. And suddenly its a huge failure to finish second. He also said that venebles was a great England manager even though we won two games at euro 96 in full time 

Your neighbour needs to take his meds. Southgate's record as England manager of 2 European Championship finals appearances, a World Cup semi-final finish and another World Cup quarter final finish is by all accounts an impressive record. Those were the 4 tournaments in which he was given the opportunity to manage England. Lets also not forget that all 4 matches in which England got knocked out at these 4 tournaments, were very close games and England lost by small margins. 

Fans expect too much sometimes and forget that there are many other teams in contention to win these major competitions. I think we played better than France at these Euros for example and the French were stacked with talented players. The French were also the favourites to win these Euros before a ball was kicked in Germany.

Which other England manager has done as well as Southgate as England manager since the great Sir Alf Ramsey? The likes of Bobby Robson and Venables are held in high esteem as great England manager, but lets be honest, even they didn't do as well for England, compared to what Southgate has done as England manager. Equally the managers of our so called "Golden Generation", didn't get as far in major competitions as what Southgate has done. So while Southgate wasn't perfect, lets give the manager his dues for what he has achieved for England as their manager. 

Edited July 16 by Michael

[Viva la FCB+]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Moving on from one of the best strikers in the world would be insane. He clearly wasn't fully fit at these EURO and shouldn't be judged by that. 

Im having a good time watching this unfold in the background. The guy came off a tremendous season in which Bayern was very mediocre really otherwise, is still easily in the top couple strikers in the world, was injured at the end of the season, didnt look right in this tourne at basically any point, tactics also didnt play to his strengths and now he should be dropped and moved on from 

Im not even saying this in regards to reading about it here, just in general Ive been seeing that sentiment allot. 

[Dave]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Best chance we've got of convincing Klopp to join is by telling him this: "English refs can't officiate your matches if you manage England."

But given he's said he wants to take a break because the pressure has been intense... I'm not sure there's a job in English football that comes with quite as much media scrutiny as the England manager.

It's worth a shot seeing if he'll take the job though.

He rejected the US job a few days ago according to ESPN I think.

To be fair, it's a piece of cake for two years, even Roy sleepwalked us to tournaments with less teams qualifying, then it's 100mph when the tournament starts.

[Dave]

But if Klopp or Poch are not interested, and we're not going to offer Glasner a contract the size of Lineker's BBC one, there's one man we shouldn't overlook.

[Gunnersaurus]

@Michael To be honest my neighbour is the kind of person that would always moan.

The thing is with football is very few managers actually win anything. Even less win anything at international level. Since the turn of the century no team has won the world cup twice and only Spain have won more than won European championship. Winning things at international level doesn't happen very often. I'm about as pro southgate as you will get and even I think it is time to go. Doesn't mean I think he did a bad job because he didn't win anything 

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

I agree with Trippier and Dunk needing to be dropped, but Walker still performs superbly for England. I know he is now 34, but if he keeps up the great performances, we should still play him. Walker was one of our best players at these Euros and he was the only England player to be named in the Euro 2024 team of the tournament. So in my opinion, we should only drop him if his performances drop. As of now, he is still playing excellently for England.

You can't take being in the team of the tournament as some kind of beacon or sign that he has to carry on. Let's be real here it's a joke he's there. And he was not one of our best players. 

He'll be 36 by the time the World Cup comes around - maybe he'll still be able to perform but also perhaps time that someone else is given a go. Perhaps under a new manager someone can build a formation to allow someone like Alexander-Arnold to flourish there.

 

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

You can't take being in the team of the tournament as some kind of beacon or sign that he has to carry on. Let's be real here it's a joke he's there. And he was not one of our best players. 

He'll be 36 by the time the World Cup comes around - maybe he'll still be able to perform but also perhaps time that someone else is given a go. Perhaps under a new manager someone can build a formation to allow someone like Alexander-Arnold to flourish there.

 

What are you on about? Of course he was one of our better players, he has been one of the best players in his position for years both at club level and international level. While yeah, I do take the team of the tournament seriously as well, it's not selected by some armchair football fans giving their random opinions. The team is selected by a panel of technical experts from UEFA.

I already mentioned his age and I said that so long as he continues to play excellently as he is now, then he should remain in our team. So I don't know why you are bringing up that point either, as I already gave an answer to it. Everyone, including yourself was praising bloody Pepe for Portugal and saying he was great and he is flippin 41! If you're good enough, then it doesn't matter how old or young you are, you should start in the team.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Michael said:

What are you on about? Of course he was one of our better players, he has been one of the best players in his position for years both at club level and international level. While yeah, I do take the team of the tournament seriously as well, it's not selected by some armchair football fans giving their random opinions. The team is selected by a panel of technical experts from UEFA.

I already mentioned his age and I said that so long as he continues to play excellently as he is now, then he should remain in our team. So I don't know why you are bringing up that point either, as I already gave an answer to it. Everyone, including yourself was praising bloody Pepe for Portugal and saying he was great and he is flippin 41! If you're good enough, then it doesn't matter how old or young you are, you should start in the team.

Mate, I know you watched a lot of games and I don't think you actually believe he was that good to be in the team of the tournament. A) there were better right-backs. B) I don't disagree he's been one of the best players in his position at club/international level. But we're talking about this tournament.

You seem to have ignored the 'maybe he'll still be able to perform' part of my post, as well.

You're the one that brought up his age, by the way...

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Mate, I know you watched a lot of games and I don't think you actually believe he was that good to be in the team of the tournament. A) there were better right-backs. B) I don't disagree he's been one of the best players in his position at club/international level. But we're talking about this tournament.

You seem to have ignored the 'maybe he'll still be able to perform' part of my post, as well.

You're the one that brought up his age, by the way...

Are you a mind-reader now, a psychic? Are you going to tell me what I think?

I do think he deserves to be in the team of the tournament, he was very solid and made some excellent tackles for us. Do I think that there were other excellent right-backs who have a claim? Sure, the competition is tough for all positions in the team of the tournament. But yes, I do believe he deserves his place in the team of the tournament. So there's your honest answer from me.

I already explained myself as regards to his age. I believe if you are good enough then you should play. The best performing players should start for the team in my opinion, regardless of their age. You brought up his age as a main reason as to why he should be dropped. So even if I didn't bring up his age, you were clearly going to mention it as the reason why he shouldn't be selected. Because you believe that maybe younger players should be given more of a chance.

 

[Stan]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Walker
Trippier
Dunk
 

Kane shouldn't be dropped. Just need a manager that plays him in the right way - prolific in the box so use him there. 

 

2 hours ago, Michael said:

I agree with Trippier and Dunk needing to be dropped, but Walker still performs superbly for England. I know he is now 34, but if he keeps up the great performances, we should still play him. Walker was one of our best players at these Euros and he was the only England player to be named in the Euro 2024 team of the tournament. So in my opinion, we should only drop him if his performances drop. As of now, he is still playing excellently for England.

Read these two posts @Michael.

Tell me who mentions age first. 

[MUFC]

I never said Kane was a bad player but style wise England would be better without him. With Spain now back on the rise and others like Germany looking to improve. One thing you need at International level is to press high up the field, defend from the front. This can't be done with Kane, it makes it easy for other teams to play out from the back. Him dropping into midfield contributes to the team dropping deep. When he is deep most of the game there is no way out or no outlet. 

By the next WC he'll be 2 years older and more leggy then he is now.

@Mel81x - Was correct in what he said. You could see the different with Watkins just having somebody who can apply pressure higher up the pitch. 

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Moving on from one of the best strikers in the world would be insane. He clearly wasn't fully fit at these EURO and shouldn't be judged by that. 

I agree, but we've also got a bloody good back-up forward in Ollie Watkins. Watkins was excellent whenever he came on for England and there will be plenty of top clubs wanting to buy him this summer. He will not be staying at Aston Villa, with all due respect to them.

Kane is a world class forward and yes, he wasn't fully fit at these Euros. To give up on him now would be very daft. He has been performing at a high level both at international and club level for years now. I do hope that he wins a trophy soon though, because a player of his class deserves his hands on at least one major cup.