Christchurch Massacre

[Harry]

10 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

You've brought this up a few times, where exactly are you going for these intelligent discussions? Are you attending lectures are your local University? Going down to the local coffee shop to speak with members of the public? The amount you reference this point suggests that you've mentally been doing some sort of social survey in your head, hoping to have what you believe is an intelligent discussion without getting it back. 

I think the standard of debate has eroded so greatly in the social media era. It has bred laziness. So many people now are choosing not to listen to the opposing point of view.  Rather judge it early, dismiss it, and stick to the Facebook feed pseudo news pages you follow which better aligns with your world view. 

We need to challenge ourselves more intellectually and postpone judgement on the alternative side of an argument. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Fundamental to all of this is the collapse of education in the Western world. People are just stupid now, even people with degrees and supposed standing barely know anything about anything and are incapable of intelligent discussion. 

Human beings will end within 200 years and we deserve it. Greedy, selfish and stupid. 

I really don't agree with you on that. I think if anything people are more educated now. I mean go an talk to some over 50s. Some of their ideas are very simple minded. 

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I've never seen any of his content

 

32 minutes ago, Stan said:

Me neither and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything either, so no loss there.

Pewdiepie is alright. He's a lot better than some of the other big YouTubers out there.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think the standard of debate has eroded so greatly in the social media era. It has bred laziness. So many people now are choosing not to listen to the opposing point of view.  Rather judge it early, dismiss it, and stick to the Facebook feed pseudo news pages you follow which better aligns with your world view. 

We need to challenge ourselves more intellectually and postpone judgement on the alternative side of an argument. 

Again I disagree. I think people are more open now. People not excepting other ideas isn't a new thing. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

55 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Fundamental to all of this is the collapse of education in the Western world. People are just stupid now, even people with degrees and supposed standing barely know anything about anything and are incapable of intelligent discussion. 

Human beings will end within 200 years and we deserve it. Greedy, selfish and stupid. 

I think people have always been fucking stupid.

The problem is now, we've led people to believe a few things that are not true and are dangerous to society:

1. "My opinion has equal weight to your facts!" - honestly, I don't know how new this is... look at Galileo and his heresy trial all because he dared to question the Church with evidence; but we see it all over the place nowadays. These are the types of people who don't need to hear expert opinions on things they know nothing about, because they obviously know better than the people who've devoted their professional careers to something that most people know nothing about.
2. "Everyone's opinion matters!" - no, it fucking doesn't. If you want to get all of your news from a Neo-Nazi on YouTube and then you want to tell me that the Holocaust is a fabrication, despite the evidence that it isn't, just because some man on YouTube said "ThE jEwS fAkEd It" (and provided no evidence) then your opinion doesn't fucking matter. If your opinion flies in the face of facts and evidence, it's not worth a fucking thing. But in today's society, nah, we just roll with it and we let the dangerously stupid air their bullshit opinions and infest public discourse.

Then I think the internet and social media and all that jazz lets everyone just voice their fucking opinions as though they're worth anything to anyone else, because everyone thinks their opinion is the most important and should be heard. So social media has just really amplified how stupid the human race really is.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

4 hours ago, Cannabis said:

 

Regarding the video, the shooter obviously had training as he was pretty precise with his shots. Knew what he was doing and managed to hit most of what he fired, not just some kid with a rifle.

 

Shooting is easy as fuck. To put things in perspective, when I was in army cadets, me and my aged 14-16 brethren would get to shoot about 4 times a year. The Australian army minimum spread is 200. This means that at a range of 100 meters all your shots with an assault rifle, firing single shots, should be an average of within 20cm of the centre point or less. Infantry are expected to get that within 18cm. Most of us shot at about 25-30 cm. Kids with no real experience or prior training. About a quarter shot at under 20 and one kid we called bambi shot at within 6.8cm. 

 

Any idiot who shoots recreationally on weekends would have more than enough experience with their weapon to shoot unarmed targets at 20 meters or less consistently. These are non combatants he's shooting at, so he never needs to consider return fire. He certainly could be ex military. But he absolutely doesn't have to be.

[6666]

As you'd expect, other bigoted clowns are inspired by these attacks. This happened outside a mosque in London in Cannon St. Thankfully these were a few idiots without a plan but hopefully they'll be easy to catch and charge. 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Muslims attack people in Europe, stating they have religious motivations. Leftists: 'They're clearly insane, their religion doesn't motivate this behaviour. They are an outlier' (for the record I agree with this)

 

White people attack Muslims, there is a mention of Shapiro and PewDiePie. Leftists: "BAN THESE HATE INCITING RACE WAR MONGERS IMMEDIATELY!! CLEARLY THEY HAVE MOTIVATED THIS ATTACK!!!"

 

Please put your head in a plastic bag, and then the oven for good measure

[El Profesor]

39 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Muslims attack people in Europe, stating they have religious motivations. Leftists: 'They're clearly insane, their religion doesn't motivate this behaviour. They are an outlier' (for the record I agree with this)

 

White people attack Muslims, there is a mention of Shapiro and PewDiePie. Leftists: "BAN THESE HATE INCITING RACE WAR MONGERS IMMEDIATELY!! CLEARLY THEY HAVE MOTIVATED THIS ATTACK!!!"

 

Please put your head in a plastic bag, and then the oven for good measure

 

Agree. I read an article that makes good sense of this phenom and describe it in a way I probably wouldn´t be able to: 

 

Quote

Whenever a shocking massacre happens, we see different yet similar responses from the left and right. When a jihadi is the perpetrator, lefties tend to brand them as exceptional, unrepresentative psychos, and even dwell on the ‘root causes’ of their murderousness, while conservatives blame their hostile ideology. When a fascist is the perpetrator conservatives tend to brand them as exceptional, unrepresentative psychos, and even dwell on the ‘root causes’ of their murderousness, while leftists blame their hostile ideology.

You can see this happening already, but one factor that often acknowledged thought little explored is how this murderer reflects the tendencies of dark internet subcultures. He was, to borrow a phrase, ‘extremely online’.

Quote

This sneering facetiousness demands that journalists be careful. You cannot take such these trolls at their word. Still, there is seriousness mixed in with trolling. When the murderer claimed, in his manifesto, that he was not just trying to kill Muslims but to provoke leftists into clamping down on civil liberties to the point that conservatives are driven into the arms of fascists he was probably being honest.

 

Source: https://spectator.us/extremely-online-christchurch-killer/

 

 

[Harry]

As a centrist or right wing person now you can barely speak your mind even on basic things because of the sanctimonious nature of the left in their belief of the moral high ground and the level to which their mindset pervades in the media....

They contribute to the polarization of many on the right.

Obviously another matter altogether when violence comes into it but the politics of division plays it's overall role. The best solution is to try to bring people back to the centre but so many on the left are salivating at the prospect of having someone to demonize. 

[Azeem]

6 hours ago, Stan said:

Me neither and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything either, so no loss there.

Check out his song Bitch Lasagna its good

[Azeem]

Apparently this guy went on to a World Tour 

[Azeem]

There were 41 killings in the first mosque and 7 in the other. There was an armed civilian in the second mosque who fired and chased the guy. 

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

I think the standard of debate has eroded so greatly in the social media era. It has bred laziness. So many people now are choosing not to listen to the opposing point of view.  Rather judge it early, dismiss it, and stick to the Facebook feed pseudo news pages you follow which better aligns with your world view. 

We need to challenge ourselves more intellectually and postpone judgement on the alternative side of an argument. 

Frequently it’s not limited to Facebook, it happens on here. 

It’s quite simple this guy is a jihadi in his own right, legimiate concerns with islamophication should be listened to and tough conversations and sole searching needs to happen throughout the western world. 

However it becomes so much harder when Idiots like this completely erode the moral high ground when talking about radical Islam. You don’t protest against radical Islam by behaving like them. 

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

As a centrist or right wing person now you can barely speak your mind even on basic things because of the sanctimonious nature of the left in their belief of the moral high ground and the level to which their mindset pervades in the media....

They contribute to the polarization of many on the right.

Obviously another matter altogether when violence comes into it but the politics of division plays it's overall role. The best solution is to try to bring people back to the centre but so many on the left are salivating at the prospect of having someone to demonize. 

I’m central on most but treated like far right because I don’t like Islam. Frequently I’m accused of being a Tommy Robinson fan boy just because we both don’t like Islam. The connection is made “ah he agreed on that subject so naturally they must be in sync on all issues”  I find Tommy a bit thick in all honesty, sort of like a shit male Stacey Dooley

[Azeem]

This was a ' White Supremacist ' attack, check out his manifesto ' We will kick out anyone who is an invader whether Indian, Black, Jew........    

[Azeem]

Posting photographs of his weapons on twitter since February

[Fairy In Boots]

One says “for Rotherham” ffs does he even know where it is? 

[Inverted]

6 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Muslims attack people in Europe, stating they have religious motivations. Leftists: 'They're clearly insane, their religion doesn't motivate this behaviour. They are an outlier' (for the record I agree with this)

 

White people attack Muslims, there is a mention of Shapiro and PewDiePie. Leftists: "BAN THESE HATE INCITING RACE WAR MONGERS IMMEDIATELY!! CLEARLY THEY HAVE MOTIVATED THIS ATTACK!!!"

 

Please put your head in a plastic bag, and then the oven for good measure

This would be hilarious if it actually referred to anything that happened irl.

Although every terrorist is in some sense individual and unique, we do in fact monitor, limit or outright ban Islamic extremist propaganda. White nationalism on the other hand is extremely easily accessible on most social media - in fact if you watch gaming channels or anything vaguely political on youtube, there's a good chance of having it recommended to you.

With Islamic terrorism there's an enormous culpability (rightly) placed on sources of information and on providers of extremist propaganda.

I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with white extremist propaganda - not that I'd count Pewdiepie as a priority.

 

 

[Inverted]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

As a centrist or right wing person now you can barely speak your mind even on basic things because of the sanctimonious nature of the left in their belief of the moral high ground and the level to which their mindset pervades in the media....

They contribute to the polarization of many on the right.

Obviously another matter altogether when violence comes into it but the politics of division plays it's overall role. The best solution is to try to bring people back to the centre but so many on the left are salivating at the prospect of having someone to demonize. 

Lol the centre and the right wing control the entire media, at least the traditional media. 

I think I must be missing these left wing media figures you have in mind, any suggestions?

[Harry]

[The Artful Dodger]

4 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Frequently it’s not limited to Facebook, it happens on here. 

It’s quite simple this guy is a jihadi in his own right, legimiate concerns with islamophication should be listened to and tough conversations and sole searching needs to happen throughout the western world. 

However it becomes so much harder when Idiots like this completely erode the moral high ground when talking about radical Islam. You don’t protest against radical Islam by behaving like them. 

Do you think Islamists have 'legtitmatw concerns' about western foreign policy?

I see a lot crying from the right-wing being labelled as responsible for this but they do the same when it is an Islamist attack. The reaction has been notably different to this, from the outright hate from the Australian nut to to pseudo-justification of this by many, including yourself, by insinuating that this a reaction 'gone to far', as if there is essentially righteous about his cause it's just his methods that are the issue. It's nonsense and exactly the same as those who say 'well if we didn't invade and kill thousands in Muslim countires we would not have the slaughter'. The ideology breeds the violence. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Fwiw there are many commentators which may be labelled as 'the left'* that I think are wrong to make inferences about any type of criticism of Islam fuelling this. I don't agree with people like Douglas Murray but it's ridiculous to compare him to the likes of Tommy Robinson. People abusing an idea and manipulating it into something hateful and violent doesn't delegitimise the original idea.

 

*I don't agree with the left/right stuff. To me being left-wing is about your economics, you believe in a largely socialised state and social issues are a secondary thing. It's perfectly possible to be a Socialist and conservative, in fact many of the great names of the past were very conservative.

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Do you think Islamists have 'legtitmatw concerns' about western foreign policy?

I see a lot crying from the right-wing being labelled as responsible for this but they do the same when it is an Islamist attack. The reaction has been notably different to this, from the outright hate from the Australian nut to to pseudo-justification of this by many, including yourself, by insinuating that this a reaction 'gone to far', as if there is essentially righteous about his cause it's just his methods that are the issue. It's nonsense and exactly the same as those who say 'well if we didn't invade and kill thousands in Muslim countires we would not have the slaughter'. The ideology breeds the violence. 

 His actions are a reaction to Islamic fundamentalism or at least how he perceives it. The various things he’s written all over the weapons pretty much show you his motives. 

I think the justification comes from frustration with how it’s all been going over the last decade or so with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in the West. I’ll be honest my first thought upon seeing it was “horrible, but I’m not surprised” violence begets violence and that ship sailed centuries ago.

I felt the same with that twat in Bethnal Green last year after the grooming scandal, I thought it would get much worst than that I think the general population showed great restraint over it in all honesty. Because I wasn’t directly effected I had no compulsion to act aside from register my disgust to anyone that would listen. 

If my daughter or sisters were victims of something like that I’d be out for blood and revenge. I can’t not say that’s not somewhat justified to my mind. Likewise I’m considered enough to acknowledge that you make a good point regarding western policy causing death in Muslim countries. If you’re child’s school gets blown up by a drone and you lose a child your going to want revenge to. 

No matter how much people talk of education or understanding the harsh reality is that eventually with any conflict there will be a reckoning and most will revert to tribal instincts within us all. It’s a universal truth I/we care and empathise more with those we feel akin to, I think “ah this is sad” but I was a lot more upset about Manchester frankly. Because I’m emotionally removed from these victims in this case. 

Vice Versa a Muslim person who sees these victims as a brother or sister in faith no doubt feels this more keenly that they do Manchester, unless of course they’re directly affected.  But if this was a Sectarian Muslim on Muslim crime you’d have Shi’a & Sunni splitting in a similar fashion. 

You’ve also got to factor in distance, once you get outside of Europe the shock is somewhat lessened, this is just too far away from most of our spheres of social empathy. A great example is natural disasters, take the Christchurch earthquake for example we looked at it for 48-72 hours on tv them moved on over here and we forget about it. 

[Azeem]

27 minutes ago, kapisevicius said:

I love how discussions about terrorism turn into discussion if left-wing is right and right-wing is not and other way around and which side contributes to the current situation the most.

P.S We still live in the most peaceful times in civilization history (yeah, I know it's terrifying) and one fucked up guy doesn't change anything so please don't say that the world will end in 200 years unless you have a reliable argument.

That's only because conventional wars are on a break, and its a myth that a large scale conventional war is not possible anymore because of nukes etc