The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Redcanuck]

On 27/11/2023 at 03:01, Stan said:

More reports from hostages held by Hamas have spoken about good conditions, being fed well and given medicine if Hamas had it. 

I don't think you will actually hear how the hostages have been treated until all of them are accounted for.   Hopefully for both sides it  will turn out they were treated as best as they could be under the circumstances. 

[Michael]

Is it just me, or are bias presenters like James Whale just unreal in how they behave when interviewing the pro-Palestinians?

Here are a couple of examples where we can demonstrate that there is no pleasing presenters like James Whale. In the first interview, @23:10 a passionate pro-Palestinian guest, tries to make a point, demonstrating how he is being constantly cut off and not allowed to complete his points, because he is always being interrupted. James Whale then accuses him of being violent and even says to him, "why don't you just go away!".  I find it ridiculous that he claimed that the guy was being violent, when he clearly wasn't. It's just clear to see that the guy is passionate and concerned about what's going on in Palestine.

 

In the following interview below, another educated pro-Palestine guest is interviewed. This guest is much more calm and collected. It is clear that he is trying to be as polite and as friendly as possible when he is being interviewed by James Whale. @10:43 James Whale accuses the guest of smirking and being rude when talking about a serious situation. When if we watch the interview in context, we can just see the guy smile, because he is very surprised by the responses from James Whale and Ash(James's side-kick). The guest has to then clarify to James, that he is smiling out of politeness and because he is trying to be nice.

 

 

 

It's as if you can't win with people like James Whale and Ash. If the guests are passionate, he accuses them of being violent and aggressive. While if they are calm and polite, he accuses them of smirking and mocking the situation in Palestine. I find it ridiculous and to be honest, it's just a tactic to make the guests they oppose look bad. I mean Ash is arguably even more rude than James, in the way he speaks to the pro-Palestinian guests. Fair enough, he is Jewish and he is no doubt on the side of Israel, but that doesn't mean he should be rude to the guests on the show.

 

[Stan]

Watching TalkTV is your first problem there. 

[6666]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Is it just me, or are bias presenters like James Whale just unreal in how they behave when interviewing the pro-Palestinians?

It's TalkTV. They want to frame everything according to their right wing narrative by using whatever dirty tricks they can. It's basically Fox News for the UK.

Edited November 28, 2023 by 6666

[Dr. Gonzo]

While the rest of the world is distracted by Israel v Palestine part 6billion - Iran's killing off loads of dissidents for having the nerve to demand basic human rights the government insists on denying them. https://www.iranintl.com/en/202311285181

[6666]

What's going under reported now is what Israel are doing in the West Bank. The IDF and the Israeli settlers in the West Bank attacking Palestinians and making their lives hell. IDF also arresting Palestinians in huge numbers for no reason. I guess they need to re-up on the hundreds of Palestinian hostages they have after they let a few go.

[OrangeKhrush]

it is nice to know that not all left leaning outlets are bias and the associated press did a very good job here.

Palastine and Palastinians are to weak to stand up to oppression within and their only hope of liberation is the IDF.

it's time the coalition forces enter Gaza and the West Bank with the US assuming transitional government powers to stabilise and act as protection from Islamic extremists that won't give up power easily.   It will take likely decades until Palastine is able to stand free from Islamic jihad.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 days after releasing one of Iran's most popular musicians (after holding him for over a year and torturing him), they've decided they don't want him freely out in the world demanding human rights for Iran. And with the world distracted by the war their proxy is engaged in with Israel, they've snatched him back up.

[6666]

On 30/11/2023 at 08:46, OrangeKhrush said:

it is nice to know that not all left leaning outlets are bias and the associated press did a very good job here.

Palastine and Palastinians are to weak to stand up to oppression within and their only hope of liberation is the IDF.

it's time the coalition forces enter Gaza and the West Bank with the US assuming transitional government powers to stabilise and act as protection from Islamic extremists that won't give up power easily.   It will take likely decades until Palastine is able to stand free from Islamic jihad.

 

Yeah, Israel killing any Palestinian they see and taking over as much land as they can is great liberation...

Israel is an apartheid, terrorist state. They have never cared about "freeing" Palestinians. Don't know how insanely naive a person you'd have to be to think Israel cares about doing right by Palestinians. Decades of harassment, oppression, kidnapping, and murder doesn't support that idea. Their own politicians coming out and saying they want every Palestinian dead and all of Palestine to be theirs doesn't support that either. Fuck Nazi Israel.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

7 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Yeah, Israel killing any Palestinian they see and taking over as much land as they can is great liberation...

Israel is an apartheid, terrorist state. They have never cared about "freeing" Palestinians. Don't know how insanely naive a person you'd have to be to think Israel cares about doing right by Palestinians. Decades of harassment, oppression, kidnapping, and murder doesn't support that idea. Their own politicians coming out and saying they want every Palestinian dead and all of Palestine to be theirs doesn't support that either. Fuck Nazi Israel.

 

ok karen

[Goku de la Boca]

12 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Yeah, Israel killing any Palestinian they see and taking over as much land as they can is great liberation...

Israel is an apartheid, terrorist state. They have never cared about "freeing" Palestinians. Don't know how insanely naive a person you'd have to be to think Israel cares about doing right by Palestinians. Decades of harassment, oppression, kidnapping, and murder doesn't support that idea. Their own politicians coming out and saying they want every Palestinian dead and all of Palestine to be theirs doesn't support that either. Fuck Nazi Israel.

 

I am by no means an expert, nor the word of god on this subject, and I say this because I don't want half the forum coming onto me for my next opinions. If you disagree I'm sorry, but your comments is feeding Hamas exactly what they want to hear. While Israel are destroying Gaza, they are watching it with popcorn all the way from Qatar. Both are on the wrong, but I refuse to be manipulated into these sort of comments when Hamas are doing this so people condemn their actions. They knew exactly what would happen.

[Spike]

You heard it here first folks, disliking how Israel views and treats Palestinians is equivalent to the  cultural phenomenon of women over fifty harassing retail and service industry workers. You may as well say Palestinian lives are equal to a Starbucks coffee, about USD $5. 
 

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Yeah, Israel killing any Palestinian they see and taking over as much land as they can is great liberation...

Israel is an apartheid, terrorist state. They have never cared about "freeing" Palestinians. Don't know how insanely naive a person you'd have to be to think Israel cares about doing right by Palestinians. Decades of harassment, oppression, kidnapping, and murder doesn't support that idea. Their own politicians coming out and saying they want every Palestinian dead and all of Palestine to be theirs doesn't support that either. Fuck Nazi Israel.

 

Israel's got Arabs living there in peace though. They've even got Arab politicians. I think Israel's government does a lot that is worthy of condemnation - especially the far-right members that make up the current governing coalition. But to say the whole country wants every Palestinian dead I think flies in the face of reality.

Yes, I think it's very fair to say that Israel's government has not acted in the interests of peace or stability for Israel and the Middle East. By the same token, it's fair to say that Hamas and the PA have done the exact same thing - they've acted to continually escalate the conflict.

Hamas isn't a legitimate "resistance" for Gaza or Palestine. It's a group of violent radicals that want to wage war on Jews. Not just Israelis - it's in their charter, all Jews around the world. They've taken active steps to put Palestinians in harms way for their own goals. There is no peace, for Israelis or Palestinians, with them still around.

10 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I am by no means an expert, nor the word of god on this subject, and I say this because I don't want half the forum coming onto me for my next opinions. If you disagree I'm sorry, but your comments is feeding Hamas exactly what they want to hear. While Israel are destroying Gaza, they are watching it with popcorn all the way from Qatar. Both are on the wrong, but I refuse to be manipulated into these sort of comments when Hamas are doing this so people condemn their actions. They knew exactly what would happen.

I don't think any of us are experts, and certainly none of us are the word of god (lol, what a term for a conflict raging in the "holy lands") - but I certainly think you are right that his type of comment is exactly what Hamas want to hear come from the mouths of westerners. They did not commit the attack on October 7th without expecting Israel to come in with a heavy handed approach.

It will never happen because of the makeup of the UN Security Council... but trusting Israelis and Palestinians to resolve this conflict with it ending in peace is a huge mistake the world is making. Nothing Israel's government has done since 1995 has been in the interest of a lasting and meaningful peace. Nothing Hamas or the PA have done have been in the interest of making a lasting and meaningful peace.

Neither Israeli or Palestinian leadership have demonstrated they are capable of handling the crisis, nor have they demonstrated capability in improving the situation over the past few decades. Neither of them can even be trusted to follow international law.

I don't know why the rest of the world has any faith in either of the two parties.

[Spike]

But mate Arab=/Palestinian and you know very well the mindset of ‘one of the good ones’. Hitler’s driver  was Jewish for crying out loud. @Dr. Gonzo

Edited December 4, 2023 by Spike

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Spike said:

But mate Arab=/Palestinian and you know very well the mindset of ‘one of the good ones’. Hitler’s driver  was Jewish for crying out loud. @Dr. Gonzo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel 20% of Israel's population are Arabs that identify as Palestinians. Also, I think ethnically there's probably not a whole lot of difference between Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs if any.

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel 20% of Israel's population are Arabs that identify as Palestinians. Also, I think ethnically there's probably not a whole lot of difference between Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs if any.

They aren't treated as fairly by the government and culture though. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel#chapter-title-0-4

The difference is that they don't live in Gaza, I think that's a major qualifier for treatment in this scenario, the oversight is markedly different in warzones, and people's actual ethnicity is besides the point as long as they in an area they can be easily 'misidentified'.

[Spike]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

Quote

“There are all these laws that either directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship, including laws that prevent me and others from moving into certain towns,” she said, referring to an Israeli law that allows villages and towns in certain regions to operate “admission committees.” They have the power to bar people from moving in if they are deemed to be “not suitable” to the community’s “social-cultural fabric.”

The law was expanded this year and now applies to settlements of 700 households, up from 400 previously. Adalah, an NGO that focuses on the rights of the Arab minority in Israel, said the expanded version of the law covers 41% of all localities and 80% of the state’s territory.

“As a Palestinian living in this country, your whole existence is either carving out a safe space where you live and work in an area that you know, where you’re safe, where you can speak Arabic, where your political views are known and where you don’t have to measure your words, or you totally assimilate to the other side. Anywhere in between is the space of total discomfort,” Buttu said. “But even when you totally assimilate, there’s still a question mark.”

The coffee Nader serves in his cafe is strong and very sweet, made in cezve, traditional long-necked copper pots.

“Some people call it Turkish coffee, some call it Jerusalem coffee or Palestinian coffee or Israeli coffee … when I am in the mood, I call it Palestinian coffee,” he said, watching a spoonful of sugar bubble up from the bottom of the pot. “When I am not in the mood, I call it Jerusalem coffee … to avoid the politics”

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

They aren't treated as fairly by the government and culture though. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel#chapter-title-0-4

The difference is that they don't live in Gaza, I think that's a major qualifier for treatment in this scenario, the oversight is markedly different in warzones, and people's actual ethnicity is besides the point as long as they in an area they can be easily 'misidentified'.

I've got a lot of sympathy for most Gazans. Most of the people who live/lived there weren't even born the last time elections were allowed to be held in Gaza. They've had to live with Hamas "governing" them - so with Hamas stealing every bit of money that could go some way to helping their lives be any better, while also being told their greatest purpose in life is to die fighting the Jews when they grow up.

I've got no sympathy or time for anyone that thinks Palestinian leadership has done a fucking thing for Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. The current Palestinian leadership just exists to suck up money from Iran and Qatar and to use Palestinians as cannon fodder in a seemingly endless war, while hoping the heavy handed responses they illicit from Israel... who for some reason has leaders too fucking stupid to not think about what the blowback of their actions might mean for the future in this conflict... gain them enough sympathy in the west to have people regurgitate their propaganda.

Again, I don't see why the world just sits by while Israel and Palestinian leadership just fuck around trying the same things and getting innocent people killed. They're both incapable of following international law, they're both incapable of de-escalation.

I don't understand why the UK and US have to continually side with Israel at the cost of further instability in the region. Just put the foot down and let the UNSC have a peacekeeping mission. If Israel complains about it being a violation of their sovereignty, remind them of the creation of their country and the Nakba and tell them to shut the fuck up.

[6666]

56 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

ok karen

There is something genuinely wrong with you.

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've got a lot of sympathy for most Gazans. Most of the people who live/lived there weren't even born the last time elections were allowed to be held in Gaza. They've had to live with Hamas "governing" them - so with Hamas stealing every bit of money that could go some way to helping their lives be any better, while also being told their greatest purpose in life is to die fighting the Jews when they grow up.

I've got no sympathy or time for anyone that thinks Palestinian leadership has done a fucking thing for Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. The current Palestinian leadership just exists to suck up money from Iran and Qatar and to use Palestinians as cannon fodder in a seemingly endless war, while hoping the heavy handed responses they illicit from Israel... who for some reason has leaders too fucking stupid to not think about what the blowback of their actions might mean for the future in this conflict... gain them enough sympathy in the west to have people regurgitate their propaganda.

Again, I don't see why the world just sits by while Israel and Palestinian leadership just fuck around trying the same things and getting innocent people killed. They're both incapable of following international law, they're both incapable of de-escalation.

I don't understand why the UK and US have to continually side with Israel at the cost of further instability in the region. Just put the foot down and let the UNSC have a peacekeeping mission. If Israel complains about it being a violation of their sovereignty, remind them of the creation of their country and the Nakba and tell them to shut the fuck up.

I don't think anyone has said anything in support of the Palestinian leadership in Gaza or the West Bank.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Spike said:

I don't think anyone has said anything in support of the Palestinian leadership in Gaza or the West Bank.

Could argue that spreading Hamas propaganda is tacit support isn't it?

[Spike]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Could argue that spreading Hamas propaganda is tacit support isn't it?

I'd say Hamas propaganda is considerably less of a problem than Israel propaganda; at least Hamas propaganda brings attention to the atrocities committed by the player in this game that holds all the cards, otherwise we'd just be in a state of continued Islamophobia of videos of men in scarves smashing babies skulls against walls, instead of men in scarves and people in mitznefets  doing it as well

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

I'd say Hamas propaganda is considerably less of a problem than Israel propaganda; at least Hamas propaganda brings attention to the atrocities committed by the player in this game that holds all the cards, otherwise we'd just be in a state of continued Islamophobia of videos of men in scarves smashing babies skulls against walls, instead of men in scarves and people in mitznefets  doing it as well

I think Hamas propaganda is just as much of a problem as Israeli propaganda. They're both trying to remove all nuance from any discussion about the conflict and push people onto one side over the other.

The internet is full of it, lots of absolute language to get all of us to firmly take a side. When really, I think most people want this conflict to stop popping up constantly and for them to just start living like normal neighbors. Hating each other silently, without bombing anybody.

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think Hamas propaganda is just as much of a problem as Israeli propaganda. They're both trying to remove all nuance from any discussion about the conflict and push people onto one side over the other.

The internet is full of it, lots of absolute language to get all of us to firmly take a side. When really, I think most people want this conflict to stop popping up constantly and for them to just start living like normal neighbors. Hating each other silently, without bombing anybody.

Of course it's a problem but it isn't on mass-media 24/7, so it isn't disseminated as quickly or effectively. The main problem is people's dualism, which is an easily consumable concept that people aren't even aware as having as core fundamental law to their perception of the world. It isn't good vs evil, both sides are doing the best they can to bleed the other to death, and people need to see the warmongering for what it is on both the Israeli and Palestinian viewpoints. The only thing we are guaranteed is that people that shouldn't have to die are going to die at the end of a weapon.

[Goku de la Boca]

44 minutes ago, Spike said:

I'd say Hamas propaganda is considerably less of a problem than Israel propaganda; at least Hamas propaganda brings attention to the atrocities committed by the player in this game that holds all the cards, otherwise we'd just be in a state of continued Islamophobia of videos of men in scarves smashing babies skulls against walls, instead of men in scarves and people in mitznefets  doing it as well

I have empathy for both sides, which is why I think this whole conflict is fucked from the start.

Antisemitism meant the Jewish people couldn't live in peace. They'd get killed by Stalin and Hitler in Europe, then they'd move to the newly created Israel and get killed and chased out in MENA. They needed their own country. Where Zionism fails for me is that they wanted a very specific spot which was always going to be a disaster. Hell in most places it would have created problems but especially in a place where religion is taken to the extreme overlooked by the big daddy (the Saudis), it was a big risk to take, and while it worked for them, it came at the expense of someone else.

On the other hand, I also have empathy for the Palestinians. You can't just take somebodies land just because you used to live there, or does the law really think it'd be OK for me to kick the people living in my old home just because I used to pay for it?

As a result, this is a never ending loop, and I don't agree with radical decisions from either side, but I do have sympathy with both to some extent.