Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Will those studies fuck off. Entirely theory based reading that.
Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 @LFCMadLad take a look at this study mate. There are a lot of privilege battles we need to win for an equal world, but you're right, anything passes on as "racist" in 2020.
Subscriber Pyfish+ Posted June 30, 2020 Subscriber Posted June 30, 2020 It's not something I've really thought about in terms of commentary and the profiling but I can think of a few times where it's happened but you don't think anything of it.
Administrator Stan Posted June 30, 2020 Administrator Posted June 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, Mpache said: Will those studies fuck off. Entirely theory based reading that. They literally did a study of 80 televised games. More than just 'entirely theory'. 20 games each from Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga & Premier League. English language commentary. 2074 statement analysed on 643 unique players. Study found that 'commentators were 6.59x more likely to comment on strength of player with darker skin tone' and '3.38x more likely to comment on speed of player with darker skin tone' than lighter skinned players. When it came to intelligence/work ethic, more than 60% praise aimed at players with lighter skin tone. Researchers found that 'differencess are most stark when commentators are discussing physical characteristics/athletic abilities' 6 minutes ago, Mpache said: @LFCMadLad take a look at this study mate. There are a lot of privilege battles we need to win for an equal world, but you're right, anything passes on as "racist" in 2020. Sorry, but this kind of flippant comment does not help in the slightest. Not once has the research implied that anyone or any commentator is/has been racist. You can infer your own conclusions but if you actually read the article it doesn't say that racist language is used. Just that specific kinds of language are more attributed to players depending on their skin tone in both ways.
Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Stan said: They literally did a study of 80 televised games. More than just 'entirely theory'. 20 games each from Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga & Premier League. English language commentary. 2074 statement analysed on 643 unique players. Study found that 'commentators were 6.59x more likely to comment on strength of player with darker skin tone' and '3.38x more likely to comment on speed of player with darker skin tone' than lighter skinned players. When it came to intelligence/work ethic, more than 60% praise aimed at players with lighter skin tone. Researchers found that 'differencess are most stark when commentators are discussing physical characteristics/athletic abilities' Sorry, but this kind of flippant comment does not help in the slightest. Not once has the research implied that anyone or any commentator is/has been racist. You can infer your own conclusions but if you actually read the article it doesn't say that racist language is used. Just that specific kinds of language are more attributed to players depending on their skin tone in both ways. I highly doubt these commentators were intentionally racist. Just a pointless study to try and prove the BLM campaign more. That simple. No study can read what's going through a commentators mind, and I can't either, but my best guess is that they weren't thinking "hey he's playing well, but he's black so I'm not going to praise him". Racism is a real issue at all levels, especially bad in football and I know some racist commentators, but I highly doubt they are agenda riddled to stoop to that level, because in Europe I haven't noticed it.
Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Also @Stan regarding the "differences" that's because that's what the commentator sees! Newsflash, a lot of black players are trained to be strong, fast and powerful and lighter players to be more technical. It's all in the gene of the player. I know this because Esmeraldas in Ecuador has a very strong gene in regards to being "strong and powerful". There are exceptions but they are noted. Pogba is technical and it has been noted. So it's pretty much a moot point. Edit: this sounded racist, but my point is the players are trained to what the coaches see. If anything call them the biased and racist ones for not training them to be "technical and intelligent". The commentators are blameless here.
Administrator Stan Posted June 30, 2020 Administrator Posted June 30, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mpache said: I highly doubt these commentators were intentionally racist. Just a pointless study to try and prove the BLM campaign more. That simple. No study can read what's going through a commentators mind, and I can't either, but my best guess is that they weren't thinking "hey he's playing well, but he's black so I'm not going to praise him". Racism is a real issue at all levels, especially bad in football and I know some racist commentators, but I highly doubt they are agenda riddled to stoop to that level, because in Europe I haven't noticed it. No-one is saying they're being intentionally racist? You've jumped the gun there. They've also not mentioned the BLM campaign either. A wild assumption from you. This study was done way before the BLM campaign really took effect in recent weeks. So that's a moot point of yours. It's also not to do with 'he's black so I'm not going to praise him'. That's not the point.
Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, Stan said: They've also not mentioned the BLM campaign either. A wild assumption from you. This study was done way before the BLM campaign really took effect in recent weeks. So that's a moot point of yours. I must have missed that, that's very coincidental timing but there's nothing to say about that really. I still think my latest post has a point though.
ScoRoss Posted June 30, 2020 Author Posted June 30, 2020 To give full credit to the guy who actually carried out the research, and show the full findings of his study. It's not just something that happens in football though and is quite evident in other sports, especially basketball.
Mpache Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Yes, because a lot of black players are trained to be "fast and powerful" and white players who don't have that capability and instead become "technical and intelligent". Has absolutely piss all to do with commentators. The problem lies on the ones who train the player and decide that they can't be the latter. I am almost sure that researching that would be more worth everyones time, as that could very well be based on racial stereotypes.
Subscriber Mel81x+ Posted June 30, 2020 Subscriber Posted June 30, 2020 I think that second link's sub point (explaining the stat mechanism) about how the data was gathered, to me, is far more fascinating. They used skin tone profiling from Football Manager 2020. Just how accurate is that game?
ScoRoss Posted June 30, 2020 Author Posted June 30, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mpache said: Yes, because a lot of black players are trained to be "fast and powerful" and white players who don't have that capability and instead become "technical and intelligent". Has absolutely piss all to do with commentators. The problem lies on the ones who train the player and decide that they can't be the latter. I am almost sure that researching that would be more worth everyones time, as that could very well be based on racial stereotypes. Was Kaka not fast and powerful though? But it wasn't that which was focused on.
Administrator Stan Posted June 30, 2020 Administrator Posted June 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mel81x said: I think that second link's sub point (explaining the stat mechanism) about how the data was gathered, to me, is far more fascinating. They used skin tone profiling from Football Manager 2020. Just how accurate is that game? That does seem somewhat tenuous, I agree. I guess they found it to be the best variable to go by without attributing their own assumptions on someone's colour?
Subscriber Mel81x+ Posted June 30, 2020 Subscriber Posted June 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Stan said: That does seem somewhat tenuous, I agree. I guess they found it to be the best variable to go by without attributing their own assumptions on someone's colour? Well they did try to be fair. They said that the went from 1-11 for lighter skin tone and then 12-20 for darker skin tones. When you start looking at the data a bit more I'd like to know one other piece of information. Which league out of the four chosen had the most bias leanings and which league had the least? I'm just wondering if one league's stats skewed the entire data map.
Administrator Stan Posted June 30, 2020 Administrator Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mel81x said: Well they did try to be fair. They said that the went from 1-11 for lighter skin tone and then 12-20 for darker skin tones. When you start looking at the data a bit more I'd like to know one other piece of information. Which league out of the four chosen had the most bias leanings and which league had the least? I'm just wondering if one league's stats skewed the entire data map. But they went on another 3rd party's determinations of colour, not entirely their own. As for the other bit, good point. I've not read the full study posted above but might shed some light on to it!
Honey Honey Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 It's an ok starter study but there are a lot of confounding variables not considered in the methodology. The lead assumption is that black and white players in those leagues are equally distributed in terms of skillset and match incident. It just takes one attribute or incident to be more common in one than the other for the statistics to swing without it actually being bias.
Subscriber Mel81x+ Posted June 30, 2020 Subscriber Posted June 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Harvsky said: It's an ok starter study but there are a lot of confounding variables not considered in the methodology. The lead assumption is that black and white players in those leagues are equally distributed in terms of skillset and match incident. It just takes one attribute or incident to be more common in one than the other for the statistics to swing without it actually being bias. This. Its also unclear how commentary systems are in two/three/four combined leagues and how that plays into the bigger picture because surely they had to use some balancing co-efficient there as well. As you said, good starter study but I think it also feeds media outlets with ammo to turn it any way they want (something they do anyways).
Spike Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 It's unconcious bias. I'm super guilty of it, I've been conditioned to be suprised when a white player is quick, how stupid is that!? Something along the lines of this got into my head 'black man run fast, zoom, zoom'. It's stupid shit like this that I'm trying to conciously remove from my thoughts, though difficult given that it is usually just a preconceived shortcut that the brain makes to process information faster.
Cicero Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, Spike said: It's unconcious bias. I'm super guilty of it, I've been conditioned to be suprised when a white player is quick, how stupid is that!? Something along the lines of this got into my head 'black man run fast, zoom, zoom'. It's stupid shit like this that I'm trying to conciously remove from my thoughts, though difficult given that it is usually just a preconceived shortcut that the brain makes to process information faster. Fairly certain 100% of the world population is. Show me one person that says they haven't ever experienced unconscious bias and I'll show you a liar.
Spike Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Just now, Cicero said: Fairly certain 100% of the world population is. Show me one person that says they haven't ever experienced unconscious bias and I'll show you a liar. Of course, but it does take a moment of reflection and introspection to wonder 'Why is this my thought process?'. It is quite a difficult thing to go through, but I think ultimately rewarding if one can figure out how and why they think and react the way they do. I've a long way to go, and I doubt that is something anyone can ever truly get to the bottom of. Well, unless you are the Dalai Lama or something. Our monkey brains are quite intriguing. How bizarre is it that the mind can think of the mind itself and be self-critical? If you think too hard about that one, you start drowning in thoughts.
Eco Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 No surprise really, as the same is said for sports here in the US. If a QB is a black, it's assumed that he is a better runner than a thrower. If a WR is white, it's assumed he's a good route runner for short passes, but doesn't carry the breakaway speed to be a deep threat. The few black players in hockey are constantly pointed out for being a different color, and I can't imagine how tiring that has to be. White players in Basketball are 'shooters', whereas the play makers are back players. In all sports, I thinks it's assumed the black athlete is quicker, whereas the white is either smarter or more hardworking. I don't think any of this is meant to be harmful, but instead is just unconscious bias. The point is to know and recognize it, and (hopefully) work on changing your thought process.
Spike Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Eco said: No surprise really, as the same is said for sports here in the US. If a QB is a black, it's assumed that he is a better runner than a thrower. If a WR is white, it's assumed he's a good route runner for short passes, but doesn't carry the breakaway speed to be a deep threat. The few black players in hockey are constantly pointed out for being a different color, and I can't imagine how tiring that has to be. White players in Basketball are 'shooters', whereas the play makers are back players. In all sports, I thinks it's assumed the black athlete is quicker, whereas the white is either smarter or more hardworking. I don't think any of this is meant to be harmful, but instead is just unconscious bias. The point is to know and recognize it, and (hopefully) work on changing your thought process. I rarely hear that mentioned at all. I think the lack of black players in hockey overall has created an environment without stereotypes. Although, during one draftin the 90s aplayer was asked if he was also available for the NBA draft. I think they are perceived more as an odditty than anything else having no real stereotypes existing for them.
Cicero Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Not sure if this has any relevance, but cross fitters are arguably considered the most athletic individuals on the planet. And all the top competitors are white. Putting more irrationality into the cognitive thinking blacks are only strong and powerful.
Eco Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Spike said: I rarely hear that mentioned at all. I think the lack of black players in hockey overall has created an environment without stereotypes. Although, during one draftin the 90s aplayer was asked if he was also available for the NBA draft. I think they are perceived more as an odditty than anything else having no real stereotypes existing for them. Subban in Nashville, I felt like I heard it so often since they are the 'local' team here in Atlanta. There was also an article recently published by an NHL player who shared his awful experiences with being black in the NHL.
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