Premier League Referees

[Scouse_Mouse]

14 hours ago, Stan said:

If referees were sacked after each poor performance we'd be left with no referees at all eventually. 

The issue is perhaps their training, and more so how things are managed at PGMOL. Said for a while things need to change from the top there before we end up seeing any vast improvement in referee standards here... 

My guess is that somewhere between sacking them after one bad performance and letting them churn out shit performances year after year there just might be some sensible way of holding them accountable.

It really doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

[carefreeluke]

@Scouse_Mouse 

You're not going to get the perfect referee, even with VAR, there is too much subjectivity and too many intricacies involved in decision making. The problem is you're looking for something that you can't really obtain in football, not all decisions are black and white.

Can anyone on here name a decent referee nowadays or from the past? Collina? People have been complaining about referees for decades, it won't change, for most people referees have always been shit particularly when you add in the tribalism of football. The criteria people simply have for a good one is getting decisions correct. How can there always be a correct decision though? If for certain incidents you think it's a penalty but the bloke behind you in the pub thinks it's a clear dive after having the benefit of 3-5 replays.

'They should come out and explain their decisions' so you want them to be put in front of the media and questioned about what they did? After they've been abused and called all sorts all game? Respect surely works both ways, no? And do they need even more spotlight?

I don't want to always come across as a referee apologist all the time, I admit some of the Premier League referees don't help themselves sometimes, some come across negatively and VAR still needs to be improved but they're already fighting a losing battle before they even step on the pitch.

[Scouse_Mouse]

1 minute ago, carefreeluke said:

@Scouse_Mouse 

You're not going to get the perfect referee, even with VAR, there is too much subjectivity and too many intricacies involved in decision making. The problem is you're looking for something that you can't really obtain in football, not all decisions are black and white.

Can anyone on here name a decent referee nowadays or from the past? Collina? People have been complaining about referees for decades, it won't change, for most people referees have always been shit particularly when you add in the tribalism of football. The criteria people simply have for a good one is getting decisions correct. How can there always be a correct decision though? If for certain incidents you think it's a penalty but the bloke behind you in the pub thinks it's a clear dive after having the benefit of 3-5 replays.

'They should come out and explain their decisions' so you want them to be put in front of the media and questioned about what they did? After they've been abused and called all sorts all game? Respect surely works both ways, no? And do they need even more spotlight?

I don't want to always come across as a referee apologist all the time, I admit some of the Premier League referees don't help themselves sometimes, some come across negatively and VAR still needs to be improved but they're already fighting a losing battle before they even step on the pitch.

That's the problem in a nutshell, honestly there is no reason why it should be so intricate , let the officials officiate and when there is an obvious error then let VAR correct it.

If a player looks offside take a quick look at VAR, if you can't immediately spot the error without slow mo replays and drawing coloured lines then give the attacking player the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, I don't see any reason why a ref shouldn't be able to explain their decisions.

It sounds easy because it is easy.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think VAR has utterly fucked refs because I think confidence in them is at an all time low. But VAR’s exposed them as people that either don’t know the rules, or don’t know what “consistency” is... or something much worse tbh.

But we’re now at a point where I expect each referee in the league to put forth an embarrassing display of officiating in each match. And I expect VAR review to come to the wrong conclusion each time. And I am genuinely surprised when VAR gets something right, and I would be surprised if I saw a decent refereeing performance this season... but tbh I can’t think of many, if any.

If it were possible, I’d sack them all and import some foreign refs until we can train decent enough refs... until AI and drones can replace them all. But there’s no way in hell that’s possible, so I guess I’ll just have to be patient until technology can fill the void.

[carefreeluke]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think VAR has utterly fucked refs because I think confidence in them is at an all time low. But VAR’s exposed them as people that either don’t know the rules, or don’t know what “consistency” is... or something much worse tbh.

But we’re now at a point where I expect each referee in the league to put forth an embarrassing display of officiating in each match. And I expect VAR review to come to the wrong conclusion each time. And I am genuinely surprised when VAR gets something right, and I would be surprised if I saw a decent refereeing performance this season... but tbh I can’t think of many, if any.

If it were possible, I’d sack them all and import some foreign refs until we can train decent enough refs... until AI and drones can replace them all. But there’s no way in hell that’s possible, so I guess I’ll just have to be patient until technology can fill the void.

Have you watched La Liga recently mate? And I imagine the same problems exist in other leagues as well. 

The thing is you also need a cultural understanding of the league and country you're refereeing, I know there's a foreign referee in European competition but it's different refereeing an one-off game as opposed to every week. 

[DeadLinesman]

11 hours ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

That's the problem in a nutshell, honestly there is no reason why it should be so intricate , let the officials officiate and when there is an obvious error then let VAR correct it.

If a player looks offside take a quick look at VAR, if you can't immediately spot the error without slow mo replays and drawing coloured lines then give the attacking player the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, I don't see any reason why a ref shouldn't be able to explain their decisions.

It sounds easy because it is easy.

Wholeheartedly agree with this. I know that ‘offside is offside’, but if you’ve got to split an atom to come to the conclusion, just fucking get on with it.

[DeadLinesman]

11 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

‘They should come out and explain their decisions' so you want them to be put in front of the media and questioned about what they did? After they've been abused and called all sorts all game? Respect surely works both ways, no? And do they need even more spotlight?

This starts with the referees and the league. 
 

“Fuck off ref you cheating cunt!”. Bang, red card. Happens in Rugby, NFL etc. In fact, I can’t genuinely name another sport where it’s so widely accepted that you can verbally abuse an official and not be reprimanded. Once players realise they can’t get away with it, then just maybe the respect will slowly return and referees can then be held accountable. 

[Bluewolf]

On 21/02/2021 at 09:24, Steve Bruce Almighty said:

A referee must be one of the worst jobs you can have when it comes to criticism. To stay sane and look after your mental health in that environment you have to be of a certain character. To pick yourself up and go back out there when you know you can make a mistake regardless of how much preparation or training you have.

I agree, because it's a sport and not a typical workplace the application of the rules are open to flexibility depending on the situation and that makes it a minefield for the ref...

If I went in for a two footed tackle on someone in another department at work who was annoying me or because I was just having a bad day and sent them sprawling across the floor rolling around like Neymar I would be straight up HR and sacked because the rules are clear so there are no issues with it, but in football you can do this because it's a contact sport, However, The ref also needs to decide if the player got the ball first or the man, if the studs were too high or if there was dangerous play or intent... He has to decide which rule out of the many he is going to apply in that situation... Whatever he chooses you can be sure that many players/fans and pundits are going to disagree with the outcome... The ref is on to a loser every time whichever decision he makes.. 

I also think the introduction of VAR has weakened them a great deal as well, now they have big brother watching everything that goes on it must impact on their focus during games..

You do need to be mentally tough though to be be putting up with the on field abuse from players and fans as well as all those social media idiots that send death threats etc... 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Have you watched La Liga recently mate? And I imagine the same problems exist in other leagues as well. 

The thing is you also need a cultural understanding of the league and country you're refereeing, I know there's a foreign referee in European competition but it's different refereeing an one-off game as opposed to every week. 

Then they better get fucking started on referee AI software.

Seeing how VAR has gone though they’d probably somehow get it all wrong and it would just make things worse, though

[Scouse_Mouse]

3 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Wholeheartedly agree with this. I know that ‘offside is offside’, but if you’ve got to split an atom to come to the conclusion, just fucking get on with it.

That has to be a first on here?

2 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

“Fuck off ref you cheating cunt!”. Bang, red card. Happens in Rugby, NFL etc. In fact, I can’t genuinely name another sport where it’s so widely accepted that you can verbally abuse an official and not be reprimanded. Once players realise they can’t get away with it, then just maybe the respect will slowly return and referees can then be held accountable. 

I find it hard to believe that it's common to tell the ref to fuck off, I'd be even more surprised if they ever got called cheating cunts to their face.

The rule isn't new, refs can card or send off anyone for dissent, you can't even allude to a refs ability or bias after the match without being hauled up on charges. I just can't see them putting up with this kind of abuse especially some of them usually on a power trip.

But having said that, and if what you say is true wouldn't that imply even more that the current crop just aren't cut out for the job if they are incapable of dealing with on field abuse?

My daughter is a teacher, she's said she has to lay down ground rules for the class from day one, is it really too much to expect the same from well paid footy referees?

[DeadLinesman]

17 hours ago, Scouse_Mouse said:

That has to be a first on here?

I find it hard to believe that it's common to tell the ref to fuck off, I'd be even more surprised if they ever got called cheating cunts to their face.

Mate, players tell the referee to fuck off after almost every decision. It’s not always direct, but I’ve seen and heard it even more since the crowds have gone and the pitch mics pick it up. It’s not that it’s even indirect (often as they’re running away or refusing to speak to the ref or acknowledging a yellow card), it’s just a complete lack of respect towards the decision of a referee. How often do you see a player boot the ball out of play and then try and claim the throw in? Or smash an opponent and claim innocence? Unfortunately, it’s just the culture nowadays.

[Scouse_Mouse]

5 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Mate, players tell the referee to fuck off after almost every decision. It’s not always direct, but I’ve seen and heard it even more since the crowds have gone and the pitch mics pick it up. It’s not that it’s even indirect (often as they’re running away or refusing to speak to the ref or acknowledging a yellow card), it’s just a complete lack of respect towards the decision of a referee. How often do you see a player boot the ball out of play and then try and claim the throw in? Or smash an opponent and claim innocence? Unfortunately, it’s just the culture nowadays.

I just don't see that, I've seen players booked for minor displays of petulance, kicking or bouncing the ball away, it's hard to imagine a constant barrage of being called a cheating cunt but then taking offence to a minor reaction?

I know what it was like when I played Sunday League, some young refs got stick but even then there were the hard arses who took no stick, you knew you'd be off if even muttered the stuff that you are saying that Prem refs get on a daily basis.

Anyway all I can say is I'd be surprised if what you say is true, but I can't prove or disprove it.

As I said though if it's as bad as you are claiming isn't that more proof that these wimps really aren't cut out for the job?

[Dan+]

 

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse. So embarrassing and absolutely patronising to referees in the league. It's the kind of shit I'd expect in primary school.

Too many idiots have too big a say. In football and society in general.

[Cicero]

I thought clapping them on the pitch resulted a sending off 

[Bluewolf]

Sounds like a Boris Johnson idea.... 

[Dave]

32 minutes ago, Dan said:

 

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse. So embarrassing and absolutely patronising to referees in the league. It's the kind of shit I'd expect in primary school.

Too many idiots have too big a say. In football and society in general.

Just the ego boost Mike Dean needs.

[Stan]

Pathetic idea. Patronising as fuck. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 hours ago, Dan said:

 

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse. So embarrassing and absolutely patronising to referees in the league. It's the kind of shit I'd expect in primary school.

Too many idiots have too big a say. In football and society in general.

My response to that is: fuck right off

The players should boo them on and off the pitch just for this stupid idea being proposed.

[Scouse_Mouse]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

My response to that is: fuck right off

The players should boo them on and off the pitch just for this stupid idea being proposed.

Definitely stupid on so many different levels.

Having said that I can see refs getting a standing ovation at Old Trafford, they have been motm for them plenty of times this season.

[Scouse_Mouse]

Not a week goes by without another gaffe from these incompetent tosspots...........

Brighton captain Lewis Dunk accused referee Lee Mason of losing control of their game at West Brom when he made an "embarrassing, horrendous decision" to disallow, award and then rule out out a goal during their 1-0 defeat.

And when Dunk spoke to the media afterwards he asked why the official was not doing the same.

 

Dunk scored from a quickly taken free-kick in the first half but the goal was eventually ruled out after a bizarre few minutes at The Hawthorns which only ended after the video assistant referee (VAR) intervened.

"I said to the referee, 'can I take it?' He blew his whistle and I took it," Dunk told Sky Sports. "Why doesn't he come and speak to the press like me? Never, they hide behind their bubble.

"I don't think he knew what he was doing. He gave the goal. Why did he give it? I don't know why VAR was getting involved."

Dunk, when asked if Mason had lost control of the game, added: "Yeah, he did. Fact."

[Dan+]

I really wonder if the damage done in the past couple of seasons in particular is irrecoverable. I suppose in some ways it's karma for players and fans (of which I'm very much guilty) of complaining about decisions, but I'm genuinely shocked at quite how big a mess has been made of football in the last couple of years.

There is absolutely no way it can go on like this, yet their only alternative is going to be to come out with some more silly rule changes over the summer, and when they invariably fail to solve the issues they will make some more tweaks in probably about October / November time. Rinse and repeat.

To me the biggests thing they can do is to get rid of VAR which by its very nature encourages emphasis on refereeing and decisions, creating sometimes up to 5 minutes of delays just to get a decision, by which time, speaking for myself, I've virtually lost interest anyway and just want the game to go back on regardless. It is totally out of kilter with the flow of the game and that isn't something you can ever fix. It is what it is.

They then need to clamp down on actual cheating. Reintroduce the retrospective bans for players diving, which I include things like blatant initiation of contact and whatnot. 3/4 players suspended in one game as a result? Tough shit. We have to tackle this bullshit head on. They won't though. One of the primary uses of VAR should've been to stop this, yet incredibly it appears to have actually legitimised it. What people once thought of as "we got away with one" they now have legitimised the idea that they have been fouled because of contact that they initiated, or threw themselves to the ground due to the faintest of contact. It's like somebody who robs a shop seeing that CCTV has been installed, doing it anyway, and still nothing being done about it. We need to discourage players from doing that. You can barely even blame them for diving at the minute - we need to call it what it is and actually tackle the issue head on, rather than constantly lying about everything.

I could go on all day about how big a mess it is but I'm really worrying that we're hitting a point where it's irrecoverable.

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

I really wonder if the damage done in the past couple of seasons in particular is irrecoverable. I suppose in some ways it's karma for players and fans (of which I'm very much guilty) of complaining about decisions, but I'm genuinely shocked at quite how big a mess has been made of football in the last couple of years.

There is absolutely no way it can go on like this, yet their only alternative is going to be to come out with some more silly rule changes over the summer, and when they invariably fail to solve the issues they will make some more tweaks in probably about October / November time. Rinse and repeat.

To me the biggests thing they can do is to get rid of VAR which by its very nature encourages emphasis on refereeing and decisions, creating sometimes up to 5 minutes of delays just to get a decision, by which time, speaking for myself, I've virtually lost interest anyway and just want the game to go back on regardless. It is totally out of kilter with the flow of the game and that isn't something you can ever fix. It is what it is.

They then need to clamp down on actual cheating. Reintroduce the retrospective bans for players diving, which I include things like blatant initiation of contact and whatnot. 3/4 players suspended in one game as a result? Tough shit. We have to tackle this bullshit head on. They won't though. One of the primary uses of VAR should've been to stop this, yet incredibly it appears to have actually legitimised it. What people once thought of as "we got away with one" they now have legitimised the idea that they have been fouled because of contact that they initiated, or threw themselves to the ground due to the faintest of contact. It's like somebody who robs a shop seeing that CCTV has been installed, doing it anyway, and still nothing being done about it. We need to discourage players from doing that. You can barely even blame them for diving at the minute - we need to call it what it is and actually tackle the issue head on, rather than constantly lying about everything.

I could go on all day about how big a mess it is but I'm really worrying that we're hitting a point where it's irrecoverable.

I said it from day 1 and got mocked the shit out of. Even now people on here use my views on VAR as a stick to beat me with. 

It's shit, it's ruining the game and anyone who can't see that is quite honestly not right in the head. To be fair most people have now realised how detrimental to the game it actually is. There is still the odd numbnut though that thinks it's a good thing. They will come round eventually though, it just takes some longer than others to engage their brain.

[Dan+]

7 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I said it from day 1 and got mocked the shit out of. Even now people on here use my views on VAR as a stick to beat me with. 

It's shit, it's ruining the game and anyone who can't see that is quite honestly not right in the head. To be fair most people have now realised how detrimental to the game it actually is. There is still the odd numbnut though that thinks it's a good thing. They will come round eventually though, it just takes some longer than others to engage their brain.

When you weigh up the pros and cons since it has been introduced I just cannot believe that anybody thinks it's the pros list that would be longer. For me people backing it are doing it because they sense it will eventually improve and these are teething problems, rather than because it's actually working well. At what point do you just admit it didn't work? The Premier League has now had over 500 games with it. It can't be considered new anymore.

[Honey Honey]

You wouldn't be able to go back to how it was. When referees cost you more games than VAR, simply because VAR now means you know there is an alternative so you won't look the other way like you used to.  

[DeadLinesman]

Imagine thinking it was the technology and cameras that were the problem and not the actual human beings unable to utilise them . It’s like blaming a knife for killing someone in surgery instead of the surgeon who was incapable of completing the procedure. Maybe though I’ll be ‘right in the head one day’ or ‘engage my brain’ so I can have the same opinion as others.