Chelsea 1-1 Man Utd - Sunday 28th November, 2021

[LFCMike]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Did he? 

Keane was bang on towards the end. Ronaldo wasn't signed to win the league for Utd because he's not that much of a miracle-maker. But he was bought to help win the club other trophies perhaps. Because that's where Utd are at right now - he had to say that about 5 times because Carragher wouldn't bloody listen. Man Utd aren't good enough to challenge Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea for the title. But they can be good enough to win FA Cup. Even when Carragher asked 'is that where Man Utd are as a club right now?' Keane was honest enough to admit that. 

Carragher was spot on that Man Utd only signed him because City were close to getting him. Spent 18 months chasing Sancho only not to play him when 36 year old Ronaldo turned up. Carragher was spot on that they should be getting the likes of Greenwood and Sancho playing together.

[Stan]

31 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Carragher was spot on that Man Utd only signed him because City were close to getting him. Spent 18 months chasing Sancho only not to play him when 36 year old Ronaldo turned up. Carragher was spot on that they should be getting the likes of Greenwood and Sancho playing together.

I don't disagree on that part. The motive for signing Ronaldo still wasn't to win the league. And I think Sancho should have been playing more, as well as Greenwood. 

There are some parts where I agree with Carragher. But I don't think Keane made himself look like a fool as was stated. 

[LFCMike]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

I don't disagree on that part. The motive for signing Ronaldo still wasn't to win the league. And I think Sancho should have been playing more, as well as Greenwood. 

There are some parts where I agree with Carragher. But I don't think Keane made himself look like a fool as was stated. 

So Carragher was correct that the motive was to stop City getting him? If you're signing this version of Ronaldo then it should be to make that next step and at the very least become title challengers. You can see why it probably would have worked at City. They can carry him in 90% of their games and he's just there to stick the ball in the net. Man Utd can't because there's so many holes elsewhere in the squad.

[Inverted]

I think the problem with the argument that "Ronaldo wasn't brought in to win them the league" was that Sky had set up a narrative where United had come second and a great striker could propel United to being league winners  - I remember Neville with the whole "go buy Kane and win the league" theory. 

Obviously, most realistic fans probably would not have rated United as being remotely close to City or to a full-strength Liverpool, but that was the Sky narrative. And when you're at Sky, the narrative is the reality. 

There's also the fact that they're presumably paying him an enormous wage, and they are starting him basically every game where he is available, including league games. Neither of those facts scream "cup-winning super-sub". 

[Stan]

48 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

So Carragher was correct that the motive was to stop City getting him? If you're signing this version of Ronaldo then it should be to make that next step and at the very least become title challengers. You can see why it probably would have worked at City. They can carry him in 90% of their games and he's just there to stick the ball in the net. Man Utd can't because there's so many holes elsewhere in the squad.

Yeah but that's a moot point because that's not what I was disputing in the first place. 

This version of Ronaldo (whatever that means) helps them take the next step - I agree as you say there are other issues at Man Utd are not because of him. It's the horrid defence which at least looked adequate when Varane was playing. 

Ronaldo was signed and to help them scores goals as he has done (like Keane also said). He isn't the issue at Man Utd. If they had a better defence maybe they would be title challengers? 

[LFCMike]

26 minutes ago, Stan said:

Yeah but that's a moot point because that's not what I was disputing in the first place. 

This version of Ronaldo (whatever that means) helps them take the next step - I agree as you say there are other issues at Man Utd are not because of him. It's the horrid defence which at least looked adequate when Varane was playing. 

Ronaldo was signed and to help them scores goals as he has done (like Keane also said). He isn't the issue at Man Utd. If they had a better defence maybe they would be title challengers? 

How does it? Carragher's point was that they're further away from the title than they were at the end of last season and he's not wrong. They needed midfielders and probably another defender, not a vanity signing.

[MUFC]

3 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

How does it? Carragher's point was that they're further away from the title than they were at the end of last season and he's not wrong. They needed midfielders and probably another defender, not a vanity signing.

Oh Carrick.

[DeadLinesman]

2 hours ago, LFCMike said:

Carragher was spot on that Man Utd only signed him because City were close to getting him. Spent 18 months chasing Sancho only not to play him when 36 year old Ronaldo turned up. Carragher was spot on that they should be getting the likes of Greenwood and Sancho playing together.

Ronaldo doesn’t even play on the wing, and we were playing Greenwood and Rashford over Sancho. Ronaldo has literally been played as a lone CF/Striker. We only have Cavani at the club that also plays in that position. I’m not counting Martial as he’s just awful.

[Waylander]

We have done quite well without Lukaku yet that was with Havertz playing as No.9, Havertz was injured yesterday and Lukaku just back from injury.

Looked to me like we were trying to pen Utd back in their own half and so we got so many more corners than Utd,  just could not convert.

Playing wide down the wings did not work so well, eg Hudson Odoi's shot saved early on.

Jorginho as the last man looks a disaster waiting to happen, so a learning point for me. 

Thought we could have lost this, so a point is not a disaster just move on and win the next game,

[Reluctant Striker]

To me, if Man United were going to sign a 36 year old, past their best, but still potentially useful player.. Luka Modric may have been best choice. He probably still would be an upgrade on a few of their midfield options.

Ronaldo? Beyond the hype fanfare, which he does seem to enjoy himself, he just seems like an alternate to Cavani. They do have Martial, Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Lingard. Probably more that I've forgotten.

Basically before Ronaldo, I would look at Man United line ups & think, that midfield seems weak. I would honestly keep McGinn & Douglas Luiz over McTominay & Fred. I think Martial would seem a better player in a Liverpool shirt. Maguire wouldn't be under quite so much pressure at City or Chelsea. etc.

And that's kind of why Man United seem to be like Liverpool of however many years. A good side. Capable of plenty. But just a few sides better equipped to win the league title. And so needing too many of them to underperform to get in with a chance.

[LFCMike]

22 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Ronaldo doesn’t even play on the wing, and we were playing Greenwood and Rashford over Sancho. Ronaldo has literally been played as a lone CF/Striker. We only have Cavani at the club that also plays in that position. I’m not counting Martial as he’s just awful.

Greenwood was playing through the centre early in the season before Ronaldo arrived wasn't he? The point is, whatever the plan was for signing Sancho went out the window with the signing of Ronaldo. A signing that wasn't needed, as you say you already had Cavani. Man Utd would be better off right now had they signed a midfielder.

[DeadLinesman]

5 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Greenwood was playing through the centre early in the season before Ronaldo arrived wasn't he? The point is, whatever the plan was for signing Sancho went out the window with the signing of Ronaldo. A signing that wasn't needed, as you say you already had Cavani. Man Utd would be better off right now had they signed a midfielder.

If I’m being honest, I wouldn’t have signed Sancho with us having Rashford and Greenwood. We needed a CF, 2 decent midfielders and probably a right back. Ronaldo absolutely wasn’t needed, I agree. But he’s not the reason Sancho wasn’t started. 
 

The problem we tend to have with all these kids is Henry Syndrome. They all play central attackers in the youth teams and we end up playing them on the wings as soon as they get a sniff off the first team. Happened with both Rashford and Greenwood. 

[Tar-Mairon]

Keane was right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the wrong reasons while also making a good point, which is what made the entire thing so confusing.

He was spot on that United is now a "jobs for the boys" club. I'm surprised this wasn't picked up on more. It's clearly now no longer a case of what you know, it's whether you are seen to have this laughable, ridiculous and fictional "United DNA". Some ex pros make this sound like United are a special, unique and successful club because they constantly spout this. No. United were a special, unique and successful club because they were winners and they did not care who they upset and they held on to nobody out of sentiment. This is actually the opposite of what was developed under Ferguson. United are now a losing team but hey, they have a cozy atmosphere as some "nice lads" have important positions, rather than if they're actually up for the job.

It was the wrong reasons as he never ever made this complaint about Solskjaer, who's his mate. He only made it when Carrick, who he can't stand, became interim interim manager. His interview was embarrassing and delusional but hell, Solskjaer had a few of them too.

He was also right in that if you are going to sign Ronaldo, you know what he can and cannot do so expecting an old dog to learn new tricks is kind of ridiculous. Ronaldo scores goals, now. That's it. If you want him, you'll have to work out a way of playing that allows for that. Yes, pressing is now a big part of being a top team now but you have to make the most out of what you've got and United don't have the players to do it.

However, Carragher was right in asking why they signed Ronaldo in the first place, in that case, and the answer is obvious. They wanted to keep City's grubby paws off of him and Ed Woodward exploded in his pants at the marketing angle of this. If they want to be a pressing team, which it seems they want to be now (although Solskjaer and Carrick are woefully unqualified to carry it out), the footballing reasons for signing him was obviously secondary.

I know it's easy to rewrite history but as the team that finished second and having signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo, United were seen as title contenders and rightly so with those signings. Their issue is mainly in management and culture. When you sign Ronaldo, you know what you're getting. The guy is an utter prick but he is an utter prick who is a winner, who lives for the league titles and CL Finals. Those desires don't dim. To suggest he's turned up for a couple of FA Cup wins is ridiculous, no disrespect to that competition. United sacked a manager literally a day after he won the FA Cup, showing that that trophy by itself is not good enough for them. To sign Ronaldo, whether you intend to or not, makes a statement and that statement is that you are going to try and win the league or Champions League. United have no chance of winning the league. You never know with some freak results but their Champions League chances are highly unlikely, they'll probably go out to the first quality team they face. 

Ronaldo is not here for this.

This is a mess that Rangnick has to sort out.

 

 

[Inverted]

Yeah, the whole United DNA as it was actually embodied by Ferguson is basically the opposite of what the club has done with Ole and the current coaching set-up.

Ferguson's way was basically taking whatever ideas seem to work from the cutting edge of the footballing world and adapting them to United, with a mixed recruitment strategy of signing flair players and combining them with functional, versatile players with sufficient work rate and tactical intelligence to work in an elite team (like Darren Fletcher or Park Ji-Sung).

Ferguson realised that good ideas were good ideas, wherever they came from. The current leadership deluded themselves into thinking that the club had nothing to learn from the rest of the world of football, and that all the answers would only come from within.

That's just stupidly romantic and impractical, in other words the opposite of Ferguson. 

The club seem to have learned this lesson now with Rangnick being appointed because on paper he is exactly what they need. An outsider who knows how to make a club perform, who feels absolutely no need to prove anything, and who does not care in the slightest about tradition or history.

[Waylander]

2 hours ago, Waylander said:

We have done quite well without Lukaku yet that was with Havertz playing as No.9, Havertz was injured yesterday and Lukaku just back from injury.

Looked to me like we were trying to pen Utd back in their own half and so we got so many more corners than Utd,  just could not convert.

Playing wide down the wings did not work so well, eg Hudson Odoi's shot saved early on.

Jorginho as the last man looks a disaster waiting to happen, so a learning point for me. 

Thought we could have lost this, so a point is not a disaster just move on and win the next game,

Just noticed he was on the bench, surprised not to see him on the pitch. Obviously TT thought differently,

[Cicero]

14 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Werner is class, just wasn't his type of game.

And there lies the problem. 

We spent £50 million for a striker who's best attribute is off the ball.  When you look at our opposition in the league, there is only City and Liverpool where you could find some use for Werner. That is 11% of our games where Werner would be useful, and even then we still have to pray he someone finishes one of the hundreds of chances he gets. If we wanted a player who can help us in the counter, we may as well have kept Broja because at the very least he is good on the ball. 

There should be no type of game when you invest that much in a player. I was willing to give Werner one more season, but that miss against United when it was just him and De Gea and he somehow managed to miss the goal completely, has defined his stint with us. 

 

[Cicero]

18 hours ago, Lucas said:

How can you say that though when they coped fine without him for the past 7/8 games?

I get your point on Man City but Chelsea have been smashing goals in and looking better without Lukaku.

My biggest concern when signing Lukaku was him disrupting the rhythm of our build up. 

This team under Tuchel doesn't need a focal point ST. We need more of a Gabriel Jesus type CF.