Donald Trump

[IgnisExcubitor]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

The only way i can understand a person voting for the US Republican party in a way that is warranted: 

A) I am part of the 1% that benefits

B) Bring on the hunger games style future they are aiming to create

C) yeah they're fucking me on economic policy but at least I'll have assault rifles and bazuukas so I can do something about it

Honestly though I think the main reason people do is majestically well crafted misdirected anger. 

It's not that simple. 

There was a huge chunk of voters who had legitimate concerns over immigration, loss of jobs and businesses and national security. Unfortunately, instead of addressing them and their concerns (either by promising solutions or erasing their misunderstandings) the Democrats and their supporters found it easier to call them ignorant, uneducated and racists. 

Also, the Clinton family comes with a lot of baggage and many saw Hillary as a continuation of the Obama presidency. 

I was glad to see Sanders acknowledging all these points after the election results in the letter/piece that he wrote. It was nice to see that because it meant that the Democrats had learned their lesson and would now move forward in winning over those people. But unsurprisingly they continue with their failed strategy. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

It's not that simple. 

There was a huge chunk of voters who had legitimate concerns over immigration, loss of jobs and businesses and national security. Unfortunately, instead of addressing them and their concerns (either by promising solutions or erasing their misunderstandings) the Democrats and their supporters found it easier to call them ignorant, uneducated and racists. 

Also, the Clinton family comes with a lot of baggage and many saw Hillary as a continuation of the Obama presidency. 

I was glad to see Sanders acknowledging all these points after the election results in the letter/piece that he wrote. It was nice to see that because it meant that the Democrats had learned their lesson and would now move forward in winning over those people. But unsurprisingly they continue with their failed strategy. 

Some of the solutions (or erasing the misunderstanding) aren't easy to come by or aren't easy fixes. And because they're not easy fixes, people have been told to fuck off. Coal mining is a dying industry - yet when presented with training to allow these workers to get back into other industries, they decided to go with the promise that the coal industry would rebound: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-effect-coal-retraining-insight/awaiting-trumps-coal-comeback-miners-reject-retraining-idUSKBN1D14G0

Likewise, the dismantling of US manufacturing (which mirrors what happened with the UK's manufacturing - because Reagan and Thatcher were cut from the same shit soaked cloth) should indicate to these people that certain jobs that left the US aren't coming back, unless they're willing to take sweatshop wages and sweatshop working conditions. Or unless you're willing to get consumers that'll pay more money to have things "made in the U.S." at a premium compared to cheaper comparable imports. Or unless society as a whole is willing to pay a whole lot more to have tariffs imposed for domestic protectionism. But tariffs are just a tax on consumers. So that would fly in the face of being anti-taxation. And when manufacturing makes a rebound in the West... automation will be a big part of what drives those industries. Those old jobs aren't coming back - if they want jobs in these industries, they should learn about working with automated machinery for manufacturing rather than just manufacturing.

It's particularly hard for me to sympathise with those who don't want to adapt to an economy that's changed significantly over decades in front of their faces. A magic wand isn't going to bring back dying industries, nor is it going to bring back old jobs (or make consumers more amenable to paying significantly more). I'd be more sympathetic if they were willing to adapt and wanting government intervention to help them thrive, but they aren't - they want industries artificially propped up (like some American industries currently are -  American farming subsidies & the subsidies for health insurance companies; but I'd argue propping up dying industries up would be even more excessive than these). Particularly when these are the same people that scream about socialism whenever there's policy proposals to actually fucking help them improve their lives/how we don't need social programs, we need to all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps (unless that means learning new skills to actually play a part in the workforce, rather than sticking to dying industries).

Ultimately, the time to have been kicking and screaming about US/UK manufacturing being utterly fucked by their respective governments was when that started happening. Not after both countries had long done it and then spent decades investing in their economies being primarily service based economies. It's one thing to rip off the bandage when the wound is fresh, another thing to take the bandage off 30-40 years later and then wondering why so much has changed under the fucking bandage.

And that's why I see shite like this twat saying "he's not hurting the people he needs to": https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/424263-trump-supporter-complains-shutdown-is-not-hurting-the-people-he  - that's a Trump supporter that felt pain during the government shutdown. There are soybean farmers that are directly hurt by the trade war with China, because now they've got a huge surplus of rotting crops in their fields because their Chinese customers stopped buying and China turned to other markets like Brazil - who are pissed off that they're hurt by Trump's actions, even though they voted for Trump, even though he's done exactly what he said he would with trade and it hurt them and they should have known better. Or one of my clients that does heavy duty industrial manufacturing, the last great bastion of American manufacturing really, that laughed off projections of what a trade war with China would mean for their business now expressing dismay at the accuracy of projections of what a trade war with China meant for their exports.

The shit with Mexico/Mexicans is all very easy to label racist. The real concern over Mexicans taking jobs that American workers could have seems like complete bullshit to me when you've got this happening: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-commutes-sentence-kosher-meatpacking-executive-sholom-rubashkin-n831741 - a man who's giving these jobs to illegal immigrants over American workers is pardoned for his crimes. If American business owners weren't willing to break the law to hire these people to work for less wages than allowed in the country... then these workers wouldn't be illegally coming across to do these jobs. That's not exactly rocket science.

Then when you consider most illegal immigrants don't come from the southern border and don't come into the US illegally, but rather overstay visas, it really begs the question of why they're so focused on stopping Mexicans from coming in. If it's drugs and those criminals, those are coming in under tunnels where there currently is a big border wall - or they're coming in through makeshift submarines and shit like that. But the overwhelming majority come through on at actual points of entry on the Border and are being smuggled through under the noses of border patrol officers. A large and expensive wall isn't likely to change any of that. When I see those rallies in places like Ohio, where they're screaming "BUILD THE WALL" and then people on the border feeling like this: https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/not-many-people-border-really-want-donald-trumps-wall/  (and that's including Texas and Arizona), it makes me really question what the reasons are if it's: 1.) not going to address any of the actual immigration issues that need addressing; 2.) supported in predominantly white areas with very few Mexican immigrants.

Complicated issues have complicated solutions, not easy ones unfortunately. For economic rejuvenation in areas of America that were hit particularly hard over the last few decades and then seemingly devastated by the 2008 recession... it's going to take a massive shift towards pushing people into new industries and probably a big change in the education system and how that prepares people for being a part of the workforce (which I think also applies to the UK, not just the US) - like do we really need to funnel so many kids to uni, who graduate and are really still very unprepared for being a part of the workforce?

So while these people may have had legitimate concerns over immigration, loss of jobs, businesses and national security... many of those people didn't want to hear about how those concerns could be addressed properly. They wanted to hear the simple and unrealistic solutions that sounded nice and also sounded easy to implement. And then there's the whole racial tinge behind how people voted on their thoughts of immigration/Mexico/the Wall that has white supremacists saying "this is for me!" It makes it all very easy to tar these people as idiots, for wanting easy solutions to tough problems and thinking that would actually happen - or for voting someone who said they would do things that would make a negative impact on them, then getting surprised when that person does those things, and/or for being racists for supporting someone that's pushing racist ideas.

This isn't to say that I think political stupidity in America is confined to the right; I think there's plenty stupid about the American left as well. And a lot of the same complex issues have their own "easy" bullshit answers from the left also exist. But the American right is much louder and more effective at getting it's way despite this.

And really, I think most people politically aren't anywhere near as extreme as the bases of both political parties. But these extreme bases are who pick the candidates for both parties and they set the political conversation for the rest of the country - and the 24/7 news outlets play their part in setting the partisan points and setting the stage to keep dividing people on political extremes. So part of it is I blame individual voters for not really doing enough to look out for themselves, but I also blame the political parties and their donors/TV outlets that have let society come to this point.

[IgnisExcubitor]

That's a good insight, @Dr. Gonzo. Not surprised that it's turned this way. 

I completely agree with the last para, something that is applicable to most countries, including my own. However, I don't agree that the American right is more vocal than the left, considering what I am seeing for the past few years. But you are closer to the ground than me. 

[Cicero]

Honestly couldn't believe this actually happened 

@nudge Watch at 1.15

 

[nudge+]

6 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Honestly couldn't believe this actually happened 

@nudge Watch at 1.15

 

Gotta love American politics... Looks like we found the Jar Jar Binks of the Senate  

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

Gotta love American politics... Looks like we found the Jar Jar Binks of the Senate  

What’s the internal temperature of a taun-taun? 

 

Luke Warm

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Cicero said:

Honestly couldn't believe this actually happened 

@nudge Watch at 1.15

 

Lol wtf

[Tommy]

 

[Azeem]

15 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

Looks like someone's mama lied to him 

[6666]

His grandfather was born in Germany and was also named Frederick Trump. As is his way, I think Donald got confused. Probably to the point he thought his grandfather was his dad and his dad was his brother.

[Dr. Gonzo]

He’s declared the Revolutionary Guard a terrorist unit - I think setting the stage for a re-election bid during wartime 

[Dr. Gonzo]

So the Mueller report came out, with Barr's redactions... and even with those redactions, it's not great reading for the Trump administration. No formal allegations of collusion... but there's plenty of circumstantial evidence of the campaign working with Russia - and plenty of evidence of uncooperative witnesses. With the obstruction case, it seems Barr's finding of no obstruction comes from an interpretation that Trump was paranoid about the investigation, thus he could attempt to obstruct it. And it appears no actual obstruction took place because people he ordered to obstruct.

But the craziest shit is from pages 445-448; the referrals for prosecution with a lot of redactions. Hell of a lot of criminal activity for a bunch of people that shouted about "Law and Order!!!!!!!1111one" while campaigning 

[Fairy In Boots]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So the Mueller report came out, with Barr's redactions... and even with those redactions, it's not great reading for the Trump administration. No formal allegations of collusion... but there's plenty of circumstantial evidence of the campaign working with Russia - and plenty of evidence of uncooperative witnesses. With the obstruction case, it seems Barr's finding of no obstruction comes from an interpretation that Trump was paranoid about the investigation, thus he could attempt to obstruct it. And it appears no actual obstruction took place because people he ordered to obstruct.

But the craziest shit is from pages 445-448; the referrals for prosecution with a lot of redactions. Hell of a lot of criminal activity for a bunch of people that shouted about "Law and Order!!!!!!!1111one" while campaigning 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

At least I read the fucking thing meanwhile you’ll just keep being scared of brown people. I’ll let you know when I’m back in the UK so you can hide.

You should see what the report says about that Seth Rich shite you were pushing on here, but you probably don’t give a fuck. 

[Cicero]

Schiff did say countless of times there was significant evidence of collusion, but the evidence yet again failed to materialise in investigation and report. 

I want to see him present what he's seen that we have't. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Schiff did say countless of times there was significant evidence of collusion, but the evidence yet again failed to materialise in investigation and report. 

I want to see him present what he's seen that we have't. 

Read the report, there’s also plenty of places that have it annotated. There’s plenty of evidence in it, even with pages blacked out. There’s also an explanation of how DJTJ & Kushner avoided prosecution because the Trump Tower meeting is really a massive grey area without a wiretap or cooperative witnesses

There’s plenty more evidence for obstruction though. Barr’s conclusion here was very different to Muellers. Barr found no obstruction, Mueller says there’s plenty of evidence and wants Congress to decide. Pretty specifically says that

[Harry]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/18/us/politics/white-house-mueller-report.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/attorney-general-to-provide-overview-of-mueller-report-at-news-conference-before-its-release/2019/04/17/8dcc9440-54b9-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html?utm_term=.b17a1ff6d6ab

[Dr. Gonzo]

The biggest takeaway is that Barr is an incredibly dishonest man

[Cicero]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Read the report, there’s also plenty of places that have it annotated. There’s plenty of evidence in it, even with pages blacked out. There’s also an explanation of how DJTJ & Kushner avoided prosecution because the Trump Tower meeting is really a massive grey area without a wiretap or cooperative witnesses

There’s plenty more evidence for obstruction though. Barr’s conclusion here was very different to Muellers. Barr found no obstruction, Mueller says there’s plenty of evidence and wants Congress to decide. Pretty specifically says that

I have. There isn't any concrete evidence of collusion. 

The only next step is to have Mueller testify. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

40 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I have. There isn't any concrete evidence of collusion. 

The only next step is to have Mueller testify. 

He’s been requested. The full report has also been subpoenaed, so Congress can see it without the Harm to Ongoing Matter redactions.

[Harry]

The bigger story throughout the whole investigation was an erratic Trump trying around the edges to quash or discredit the investigation.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

The bigger story throughout the whole investigation was an erratic Trump trying around the edges to quash or discredit the investigation.

I mean throughout the entire investigation, it seemed like he was trying to publicly discredit it at every turn. And he also publicly demanded it end. It had many people question whether that was active obstruction. I’m not surprised the report highlighted these attempts. Something more new we learned was of explicit attempts he directed people to obstruct and they refrained to do so. The report pretty specifically states intent and actions make it why Mueller can’t clear Trump or obstruction of justice.

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

At least I read the fucking thing meanwhile you’ll just keep being scared of brown people. I’ll let you know when I’m back in the UK so you can hide.

You should see what the report says about that Seth Rich shite you were pushing on here, but you probably don’t give a fuck. 

Nah not read it and don’t care, also not scared of brown people just lazy mudslinging at this point to call me racist every 5 mins. 

[Harry]

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean throughout the entire investigation, it seemed like he was trying to publicly discredit it at every turn. And he also publicly demanded it end. It had many people question whether that was active obstruction. I’m not surprised the report highlighted these attempts. Something more new we learned was of explicit attempts he directed people to obstruct and they refrained to do so. The report pretty specifically states intent and actions make it why Mueller can’t clear Trump or obstruction of justice.

There is pretty clear grounds for impeachment for obstruction of justice with Trump instructing his in house counsel to get rid of Mueller.

That's pretty near enough in line with the Nixon precedent, with the difference being the staff members refusal, yet it would be impossible to do in a bipartisan way in the current climate. The Republican party deliberately obliterated political norms and decency in the Clinton years to the point which there is almost no chance they would support impeachment now, without a video recording of Trump calling Putin asking in fluent Russian for a new set of orders.

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Nah not read it and don’t care, also not scared of brown people just lazy mudslinging at this point to call me racist every 5 mins. 

No fucking shit you didn’t read it, you didn’t need to tell me that. There’s a reason the orange moron went from claiming “total exoneration” to calling the full report with redactions “bullshit”. And that’s because the full report doesn’t exonerate him at all and someone’s probably read him parts.