UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Waylander said:

I don't see a problem getting rid of the EU human rights, the way it has been abused to go after old veterans that served in N.I was deplorable.

Also like others have said we have  the bill of rights and also we have the H of L that can delay legislation if they don't like it and as it is full of political appointments so they  will make political capital if the govt try to push any thing too dodgy through.

On asylum seekers we should be taking a lot back to their own countries especially young African males who are mainly economic migrants.

The Middle Eastern ones are more difficult to judge due to our participation in dodgy ME conflicts.

Until we start repatriating ( forget France) the obvious chancers no-one will take us seriously.

I'm surprised you're not more concerned about the government's attempts whittling away of our rights outside the realm of public health, considering you've expressed concern about the whittling away of rights done in the name of slowing/stopping the pandemic.

Personally, I see the worry in government overreach in curtailing freedoms with regard to covid restrictions... but I find them more palatable when it's temporary measures meant to curtail the spread of a fairly recent disease spreading around the world. But even I can see some worry of a slide to authoritarianism and an erosion of rights/freedoms with these measures.

But nonsensical (like this taking away passports for drug use proposal) measures that whittle away our human rights for no good reason are strange and we should be asking if they're willing to whittle away unrelated rights in the name of "stopping drug use" - what other rights are going to be targeted in the name of other issues that are probably going to be unrelated to the rights that are taken away?

British rights being subject to sudden changes due to a few penstrokes in parliament should be worrying to everyone, regardless of wherever we may fall on the political spectrum.

[Azeem]

[Bluewolf]

8 minutes ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Would have been more fitting if he had dressed up as a burgler... that would have been more in keeping with the Tory policy of dishonesty, corruption and breaking the rules whenever they feel like it.. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Leaked recording shows Downing Street staff joking about Christmas party in No.10 | The Independent

 

This is pretty damning. Now we all know this is coming from Cummings, and we all know lots of people met up at Christmas. We are human beings but it's the hypocrisy which is killer. I think Johnson may well be ousted in the New Year, which may sound like good news but Gove is hovering in the wings and he is an appalling man.

[Waylander]

I had a look on the BBC about cocaine use and passports and it is clear this is not to be used for all just some.

No detail yet suggests a particular type of user.

I'll wait on the detail before judging.

 

[Bluewolf]

[Dr. Gonzo]

38 minutes ago, Waylander said:

I had a look on the BBC about cocaine use and passports and it is clear this is not to be used for all just some.

No detail yet suggests a particular type of user.

I'll wait on the detail before judging.

 

Even with more details, it seems like a really weird "punishment." The right to travel has fuck all to do with drug use. I can understand it with regards to drug traffickers - but drug traffickers should have their right to travel restricted by being arrested & convicted of drug trafficking and locked up, rather than having their passports taken away.

Personally, I think we could learn a thing or two from Portugal on tackling systemic drug abuse.

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Leaked recording shows Downing Street staff joking about Christmas party in No.10 | The Independent

 

This is pretty damning. Now we all know this is coming from Cummings, and we all know lots of people met up at Christmas. We are human beings but it's the hypocrisy which is killer. I think Johnson may well be ousted in the New Year, which may sound like good news but Gove is hovering in the wings and he is an appalling man.

It is a damning indictment the state of UK politics. I have about as little faith/trust/whatever you want to call it in BoJo's ability to lead the country... but I've got even less faith in Gove in pretty much every regard. He is an absolute slimeball of a human with even less integrity than Johnson, which is impressive because Johnson's got virtually no integrity.

Because I'm so pessimistic about the prospect of Gove becoming PM, I'm sure it'll happen very soon.

[RandoEFC+]

Boris Johnson should never have been Prime Minister of this country. He's a bad and incompetent man on every level that I can think of. This story hasn't really riled me until tonight.

It isn't even the hypocrisy, lies or sense that the rules don't apply to them that angers me, I've come to expect that. What angers me is the fact that Britain has become a country where you aren't even seeing people call for his resignation when that should be the minimum expectation. A Labour leader or even a Theresa May type gets strung up for this overnight. He should resign before the night is through. If this isn't a resigning matter for a Prime Minister in a pandemic then I literally don't know what is.

Yet the Met police won't even investigate it. It's not the Britain I grew up in, or at least the one I believe I grew up in. We've become a country rotten to the core. How people can conceive of voting for this government and this party again is absolutely beyond me. I don't care how average the other parties are.

[Dave]

@RandoEFC I don't think the Police can bring about charges if its listed as a Summary Only Offence as the Statutory Time Limit of six months would have expired.  I'm not sure if there would be a loophole for matters of significant public interest given its allegedly 30+ politicians intentionally committing a criminal act but you'd like to think that would have been considered before a public announcement being made.

[Stan]

'do as I say, not as I do' classic Tory motto. 

[RandoEFC+]

8 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

@RandoEFC I don't think the Police can bring about charges if its listed as a Summary Only Offence as the Statutory Time Limit of six months would have expired.  I'm not sure if there would be a loophole for matters of significant public interest given its allegedly 30+ politicians intentionally committing a criminal act but you'd like to think that would have been considered before a public announcement being made.

If the Met police are off the hook on that technicality then fine, but it's a mere drop in the ocean.

I'm not personally affected in this way but the number of people I'm reading sharing their stories on Twitter about saying their goodbyes over Zoom or leaving their parents and grandparents to spend what was their last Christmas in a care home without visitors, it's a disgrace.

It's totally conceivable that horrible glob will win another election as well. An absolute toilet of a country.

[Dave]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

If the Met police are off the hook on that technicality then fine, but it's a mere drop in the ocean.

I'm not personally affected in this way but the number of people I'm reading sharing their stories on Twitter about saying their goodbyes over Zoom or leaving their parents and grandparents to spend what was their last Christmas in a care home without visitors, it's a disgrace.

It's totally conceivable that horrible glob will win another election as well. An absolute toilet of a country.

I stand corrected!

[Smiley Culture]

I find it a bit hypocritical, all this. At Christmas last year, a fair chunk of people in this country were flouting the rules put in place by the government. Some obviously continued to abide by the laws but, when the majority of people I know (myself included but we had our reasons) were doing whatever they wanted and are know having a go at the government for the same, I can’t really get behind it. By all means, I get the dislike of Johnson and his rein. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

I find it a bit hypocritical, all this. At Christmas last year, a fair chunk of people in this country were flouting the rules put in place by the government. Some obviously continued to abide by the laws but, when the majority of people I know (myself included but we had our reasons) were doing whatever they wanted and are know having a go at the government for the same, I can’t really get behind it. By all means, I get the dislike of Johnson and his rein. 

I get what you mean. But I didn't break the rules and so I feel its perfectly reasonable to have a go at him. I expect governments to be better than that 

[Stan]

17 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

I find it a bit hypocritical, all this. At Christmas last year, a fair chunk of people in this country were flouting the rules put in place by the government. Some obviously continued to abide by the laws but, when the majority of people I know (myself included but we had our reasons) were doing whatever they wanted and are know having a go at the government for the same, I can’t really get behind it. By all means, I get the dislike of Johnson and his rein. 

It's also the fact they won't get punished for it, yet literally on the same day there were people around the country getting whacked with £10k fines for holding parties. 

So yeah, if people are breaking rules and being punished that's fine. But why can government break rules and then not be fined?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

It's also the fact they won't get punished for it, yet literally on the same day there were people around the country getting whacked with £10k fines for holding parties. 

So yeah, if people are breaking rules and being punished that's fine. But why can government break rules and then not be fined?

The fact is the government shouldn't have done it. Whether people were or not is irrelevant it's the government they're not supposed to do things like that. I dont remember any prime minister getting away with what Johnson has. The you support the conservatives because you think they are better for the country that none thing. But to defend jonson and say he is a good person is just wrong I think. Hes clearly not a good person 

[RandoEFC+]

It's one thing a minority of the public getting 2-3 households of their nearest and dearest together on the sly on Christmas day and most of them probably having the grace to feel bad about it. I'm not sure a "large chunk" of the population had sizeable secret parties with Secret Santa, cheese and wine. And that's before you factor in the rank hypocrisy of being the ones who actually made the rules themselves.

Besides, even if you put all of that aside, it's the Prime Minister and the government. They've been elected to look after the country, they should be held to the highest standard of all.

I get the temptation to try not to get angry. If you do it every time with this lot, it's not great for your mental health. You've got to try and find that balance. But you can't just turn a blind eye to everything because eventually nothing will matter and stuff like this will be perceived as okay. I really don't think it's unreasonable to say that there should be protests outside Downing Street until heads roll for this (and everything else). 

[RandoEFC+]

Given that Boris Johnson lost his mother earlier this year, I'd be far less angry if it came out that they'd had her over for Christmas Day against the rules. But even that would be awful because thousands of families across the UK are in the same boat and followed the rules. That would have been bad enough but at least you could put it down to human weakness. Having a massive party is about 100 steps more egregious.

Anyway, enough. I think we're largely on the same page here.

[Guest]

The fact is whether right or wrong you have to lead by example. If the prime minister is breaking the rules then other people will. Then innocent people suffer. It's like when there was no repercussions for Cummings breaking the rules. People started to break the rules themselves. This government is despicable. The worst in my time.

[Dr. Gonzo]

18 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Besides, even if you put all of that aside, it's the Prime Minister and the government. They've been elected to look after the country, they should be held to the highest standard of all.

Yeah, exactly.

Honestly, most people I know back home did follow the rules except for a few people - but even those I know who didn't follow those Christmas rules... I don't know if it's right to hold them to the same standard as the people who are running the country.

And the people who run the country need to be held to a higher standard than ordinary people because...

7 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

The fact is whether right or wrong you have to lead by example. If the prime minister is breaking the rules then other people will. Then innocent people suffer. It's like when there was no repercussions for Cummings breaking the rules. People started to break the rules themselves. This government is despicable. The worst in my time.

this is absolutely right. If you can't trust the people at the very top to lead by example and follow the same rules they're expecting the rest of the nation to follow... you just can't really trust their leadership.

These are the absolute worst types of leaders in any sort of situation, let alone a public health crisis. And that's without even considering the economic impact of COVID and Brexit happening simultaneously with these utterly untrustworthy bags of shit at the helm.

[Smiley Culture]

If you’re trusting this lot, or politicians in general, to lead by example then you’re asking to be let down, personally. Johnson should have been gone long ago, he wasn’t even at these parties so he’s got off of all the flak for this but the precedents was set a long time ago for his party and their handling of Covid.  
 

 

 

[Guest]

Weren't people allowed to see their relatives on Christmas day from what I remember? I know Christmas parties weren't allowed though. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

If you’re trusting this lot, or politicians in general, to lead by example then you’re asking to be let down, personally. Johnson should have been gone long ago, he wasn’t even at these parties so he’s got off of all the flak for this but the precedents was set a long time ago for his party and their handling of Covid.  
 

 

 

He was the conservative leader and no doubt knew about it though so he still had responsibilities. Leaders of parties get forced to resign for things all the time they weren't directly responsible for so I don't feel that it is necessary for him to have been there personally 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Guest

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Smiley Culture said:

If you’re trusting this lot, or politicians in general, to lead by example then you’re asking to be let down, personally

There's a difference between having expectations and expecting them to be met though. There's a minimum expectation in these circumstances that you have the decency to follow the rules if you're asking everyone else to after being elected to the position where you’re the one making the call. Do I expect Boris Johnson to follow his rules though? No I don't, it doesn't mean the expectation should be scrapped altogether. 

You have to try and retain some expectation of some standards in public life. Going down the route of "expect nothing and you can't be disappointed" and/or taking the cynical view that they're all the same, we can't trust them, is how Boris Johnson being Prime Minister and Donald Trump becoming a world leader happens.

I'm not fool enough to believe that Starmer, Corbyn, May, Cameron, Brown, whoever could be trusted 100% but all of them, I believe, could be trusted not to do this, and that still has to mean something. There has to still be some bar to clear no matter how pitifully low.

I know I'm splitting hairs a bit but I do think it matters.

[Dave]

All the posts in this thread do emphaisise that the culture within politics does really need to change. I'm usually hesitant to vote for either party because I feel like I'll be getting burnt from both ends of the candle regardless of who will win because of the constant lieing from influential members of both political groups.