UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Stan]

8 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Which is funny because Labour and Starmer were staunchly anti brexit, but are too scared to run a campaign on rejoining. 

Exactly. I think they'd bag more voters than they'd lose it they stuck to their guns and aimed to rejoin. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

Exactly. I think they'd bag more voters than they'd lose it they stuck to their guns and aimed to rejoin. 

I fucking hate hate hate to say this, but ultimately the reason you have a moderate, boring and cowardly Kier at the helm is because Corbyn lost his election. Your nation has a fucking mind so narrow I'm amazed anyone can wear a hat, and Corbyn having a challenging list of reasonable policies and riding a red bicycle was ultimately 'too extremist' and you got stuck with the shite you got. 

We had a similar election 4 years ago. Shorten, full of great ideas, with a policy manifesto as long as your arm with highlights such as manufacturing electric vehicles, ending austerity and privatization  lost the unlosable election to Scott Morrison and his manifesto of 'Australia is the best country in the world, why change anything?" 

And then we stayed with the shit party, and we were led through the toughest times in recent history by them and they bungled everything. Only now, in hindsight do we change political parties, and the same will go for you. But to avoid catastrophe, Labour will play it overly safe. 

[Stan]

32 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I fucking hate hate hate to say this, but ultimately the reason you have a moderate, boring and cowardly Kier at the helm is because Corbyn lost his election. Your nation has a fucking mind so narrow I'm amazed anyone can wear a hat, and Corbyn having a challenging list of reasonable policies and riding a red bicycle was ultimately 'too extremist' and you got stuck with the shite you got

Interesting you say this because some fire Starmer as a Tory-lite individual. 

I'm not sure what's cowardly about him, mind. 

I've said this before but I'd rather have boring and effective as opposed to eccentric and ineffective. 

The fact Labour have made considerable gains in several constituencies is a) because Tories are such a shit show and b) Starmer actually poses as a sensible, diplomatic, calm choice for a leader. When you consider what the Tories have to offer, he's an able alternative. The only problem is that Labour in the past have done so much damage that they lost a lot of core voters (hence the red wall breaking down in the North East). 

I agreed with some of the Corbyn policies which funnily enough some Tory ministers want to bring in (4-day week was discussed last year, free broadband for vulnerable people) but he is given such bad press (which the Tories run) that people chose to believe those smears as opposed to think for themselves and see what the parties have to offer. 

People point to Starmer or Labour for ruining this country. Sorry, but the Tories have 'governed' for 12 years and its not up to Labour to bring the solutions to the problems. The problem the Tories have is they create more problems not only for themselves but for the country. Point the finger at the ones in charge, not the ones that can't make any changes and that aren't in power. 

Fine to say we got stuck with the shit we got, but I pray to God that come the next GE, anyone - be it on the fence, core Labour, Tory or any other voter - sees how badly the Tories run the country and have done for 12 years so far. They've run it into the ground and destroyed the economy in the process. Some might blame COVID but the problems were there long before. 

We might be fucked now, but we'll be fucked on a grander scale if Tories stay in power. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

20 hours ago, Gunnersaurus said:

Ten years is quite a long time. I'm not sure how old you are but I've seen how much ideas can change in ten years.  It may take longer but I wouldn't have thought it will be over 20 years. To answer yours  and @Rucksackfranzose point. The EU would still be better of with Britain in. Even the presidents have admitted it. Lets not be arrogant it will be more on their terms. But financially it wouldn't make sense for us to rejoin if we arent better of. I'm not sure if financially we will get a bad deal. But the EU will definitely play politics and we won't have the power we once did. 

 

20 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

The EU would indeed still be better off with Britain as a member. However they can't just let us back in on the same terms with the same power of veto and exemption from the Euro and all the other perks we used to have. Otherwise they'd be encouraging other members to just jump out on a whim for a few years knowing they can change their mind and come back without having lost anything.

We're still a long way off this conversation though. Labour will probably win the next election and govern until 2029. I don't think Keir Starmer will campaign on rejoining unless he's completed two terms to 2033-34. You won't see a Conservative leader stand on a platform to rejoin the EU and I don't think you’ll see it from a Labour leader until they've either been booted out and seek reelection with a new leader, or the Tories shift to a much more moderate pro-single market type position. Politically, it's too difficult for either party to shift to a pro-EU position and hold together a coalition for a majority. The other factor I can think of is if the SNP suddenly dive bomb in Scotland and open up a swathe of new seats in Parliament for Labour. You never know though. These things can change quickly and have done in recent years. The polling shows a hypothetical rejoin referendum has support in the region of 57/43 which is pretty large, but it's not reliable until the specifics of what rejoining would look like are known.

From an economical point of view the EU is indeed better off having the UK as a member. It's a a social federation and a project of political cooperation beyond economic interst as well, though. In this regard the Schengen zone and freedom of movement are seen as the most important parts in German- speaking countries.where an even closer union would be preferred  The nouns most used regarding the UK's role in this respect whilst they were still EU members have been "Hemmschuh" and "Bremsklotz" which translates to "drag" and "brake pad" respectivel- and no , that wasn't meant as the compliment The ERG, Brexit Party , and/oor UKIP apparentely would have taken it. The fact there are tendencies to return from metric system to emperial units in the UK would additionally complicate the only arguement speaking for the return of UK in many people eyes, the free market and freedom of movement between continental EU members and the UK. (On a side note one isn't available without the other, therefore those ideas a few British conservative politicians expressed of gaining access to the single market without granting citizens of other EU countries the right of staying indefintely is delusional). Now add to this that the UK that had been seen as "drag" and "brake pad" anyway lost a lot of goodwill during the Brexit negotiations and even more so in the aftermath, when their government tried to blame the EU for the negative impact their decisions to exit the single market and the customs union automatically had. Also the consistent tries to undermine the NI protocol the UK themselves agreed on strained the relations as well. So rejoining EU opting out of Schengen is something Brits can forget about, whether the possibility to stay away from Euro zone will be given is questionable, and even if those specifics were agreed on, I wouldn't bet the majority of Germans would answer yes  if our government came on the same idea the UK came - to conduct a referendum. Although I can only speak for Germany , do know at least the published opinion is the same in Austria and would imagine some other countries share it. Long story short, I wouldn't rule out the UK being given the chance to rejoin but although I guarantee the conditions were less favorable than the once you had before regarding the possibilities of opting out I wouldn't bet on nobody vetoing it neither.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[Devil-Dick Willie]

33 minutes ago, Stan said:

Interesting you say this because some fire Starmer as a Tory-lite individual. 

I'm not sure what's cowardly about him, mind. 

I've said this before but I'd rather have boring and effective as opposed to eccentric and ineffective. 

The fact Labour have made considerable gains in several constituencies is a) because Tories are such a shit show and b) Starmer actually poses as a sensible, diplomatic, calm choice for a leader. When you consider what the Tories have to offer, he's an able alternative. The only problem is that Labour in the past have done so much damage that they lost a lot of core voters (hence the red wall breaking down in the North East). 

I agreed with some of the Corbyn policies which funnily enough some Tory ministers want to bring in (4-day week was discussed last year, free broadband for vulnerable people) but he is given such bad press (which the Tories run) that people chose to believe those smears as opposed to think for themselves and see what the parties have to offer. 

People point to Starmer or Labour for ruining this country. Sorry, but the Tories have 'governed' for 12 years and its not up to Labour to bring the solutions to the problems. The problem the Tories have is they create more problems not only for themselves but for the country. Point the finger at the ones in charge, not the ones that can't make any changes and that aren't in power. 

Fine to say we got stuck with the shit we got, but I pray to God that come the next GE, anyone - be it on the fence, core Labour, Tory or any other voter - sees how badly the Tories run the country and have done for 12 years so far. They've run it into the ground and destroyed the economy in the process. Some might blame COVID but the problems were there long before. 

We might be fucked now, but we'll be fucked on a grander scale if Tories stay in power. 

Oh yeah, Torries are worse, but Corbyn is miles miles miles better than Starmer, who absolutely IS Tory-lite. 
The cowardice is the way he basically hides from divisive issues (like rejoining) and has 0 interesting policies (unlike Corbyn).

[RandoEFC+]

What I was talking about in my last post about it not being as simple as 'rejoin' or 'stay out' and all the ifs, buts and maybes.

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Oh yeah, Torries are worse, but Corbyn is miles miles miles better than Starmer, who absolutely IS Tory-lite. 
The cowardice is the way he basically hides from divisive issues (like rejoining) and has 0 interesting policies (unlike Corbyn).

Corbyn would have been a disaster at PM though, the man was shit at leading his own party... I can't imagine him running a government that's not just an opposition government.

Granted... he'd probably have done a better job than the horror show the Tories have been serving up for over 10 years. I honestly have no idea how Tories still have anyone supporting them in elections at this point. Basically nobody in the UK can reasonably think "we're better off than we were 10 years ago".... I doubt people can say they're better off than they were 3-5 years ago.

The stupidity of the electorate is genuinely maddening, it's like having a mate that drink drives and can't stop crashing the car you let him borrow... and continually giving the fucking keys to them, being surprised when they crash... yet again... and then continually giving them the fucking keys.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

Granted... he'd probably have done a better job than the horror show the Tories have been serving up for over 10 years. I honestly have no idea how Tories still have anyone supporting them in elections at this point. Basically nobody in the UK can reasonably think "we're better off than we were 10 years ago".... I doubt people can say they're better off than they were 3-5 years ago.

 

Because people like you...

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Corbyn would have been a disaster at PM though, the man was shit at leading his own party... I can't imagine him running a government that's not just an opposition government.

 

Regurgitate sky news talking points like this.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Because people like you...

 

Regurgitate sky news talking points like this.  

It's not really regurgitating a talking point though, the man was so inept at doing something as simple as condemning anti-semitism. And by not condemning it, he invited pressure on him and his party to be labeled as anti-semites.

I like his politics, but I think he's more than a bit of an idiot.

[Dr. Gonzo]

@Devil-Dick Willie if I'd said something like "Milliband can't be PM because he eats like a weirdo" you'd maybe have a point. But Corbyn being inept at dealing with things that should be pretty easy for any "leader" to deal with when they're an opposition party leader and letting that affect how he's viewed in the media is down to his ability entirely.

He invited pressure on himself and constantly wound up putting his foot in his mouth. And you're right, of course the media will prefer  tories - they basically run the media, including the BBC. Which is why any Labour leader is going to need to have some bit of brains about them to deflect bullshit the media throws at them and reframe media messaging being positive towards Labour. It's literally part of the job because it's not like mass media run by billionaire dickheads is going to go anywhere anytime soon.

It's probably the most crucial thing needed from a Labour leader in order to get elected, regardless of political beliefs.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's not really regurgitating a talking point though, the man was so inept at doing something as simple as condemning anti-semitism. And by not condemning it, he invited pressure on him and his party to be labeled as anti-semites.

I like his politics, but I think he's more than a bit of an idiot.

A factional assault on him that was also used to silence criticism of Israels racist treatment of Palestinians. Sky talking points. 

It reminds me of when Kevin Rudd, the best leader in my lifetime was hacked down at the first sign of electoral trouble by a separate faction within Aussie Labor and replaced by Gillard. She was then outed, and we got 9 years of the libs afterward. With reflections on his time in power being 'in hindsight he did a pretty good job actually'

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

@Devil-Dick Willie if I'd said something like "Milliband can't be PM because he eats like a weirdo" you'd maybe have a point. But Corbyn being inept at dealing with things that should be pretty easy for any "leader" to deal with when they're an opposition party leader and letting that affect how he's viewed in the media is down to his ability entirely.

He invited pressure on himself and constantly wound up putting his foot in his mouth. And you're right, of course the media will prefer  tories - they basically run the media, including the BBC. Which is why any Labour leader is going to need to have some bit of brains about them to deflect bullshit the media throws at them and reframe media messaging being positive towards Labour. It's literally part of the job because it's not like mass media run by billionaire dickheads is going to go anywhere anytime soon.

It's probably the most crucial thing needed from a Labour leader in order to get elected, regardless of political beliefs.

I want to fucking scream at you. 

The media is soft on the Torries, hard on Labor. I am certain you know this. The media will do ANYTHING in its power to disrupt a dangerous looking Labor leader or potential election winning party. "Oh he should have handled the media that is instructed by its paymasters to shred him no matter what better" Give your fucking head a wobble. And focus on the actual politics and policies of parties. Don't fall into the 'oh xyz has good policies but" fallacy. If xyz has great policies and is being undermined by the media institutions of your nation don't buy the bullshit, it's happening for a reason.  

[Devil-Dick Willie]

7 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

What I was talking about in my last post about it not being as simple as 'rejoin' or 'stay out' and all the ifs, buts and maybes.

"Do you wanna save the economic future of the nation?"

Yes. 

"What if we have to change the notes we tender at the fishy to do it?"

Oi is u avin a laff m8? wot u fuckin fink me mam would say if she saw me payin for me costco wif a euro?

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

A factional assault on him that was also used to silence criticism of Israels racist treatment of Palestinians. Sky talking points. 

It reminds me of when Kevin Rudd, the best leader in my lifetime was hacked down at the first sign of electoral trouble by a separate faction within Aussie Labor and replaced by Gillard. She was then outed, and we got 9 years of the libs afterward. With reflections on his time in power being 'in hindsight he did a pretty good job actually'

 

 

23 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I want to fucking scream at you. 

The media is soft on the Torries, hard on Labor. I am certain you know this. The media will do ANYTHING in its power to disrupt a dangerous looking Labor leader or potential election winning party. "Oh he should have handled the media that is instructed by its paymasters to shred him no matter what better" Give your fucking head a wobble. And focus on the actual politics and policies of parties. Don't fall into the 'oh xyz has good policies but" fallacy. If xyz has great policies and is being undermined by the media institutions of your nation don't buy the bullshit, it's happening for a reason.  

I literally said tories basically control the media 

In any case, all Corbyn had to do was do what Starmer did... unequivocally condemn anti-semitism. It's weird that he wasn't able to do so, tbh. And any Labour leader not prepared to deal with a hostile media that will attack them for anything and everything is a woefully unprepared Labour leader who's not suited for the role.

In my lifetime though, we've never had a good PM. The closest we have to a "good PM" is Tony Blair and Tony Blair is a piece of shit that wasn't flushed down and came to life. I'm sure the next PM will also be a massive piece of shit.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

What I was talking about in my last post about it not being as simple as 'rejoin' or 'stay out' and all the ifs, buts and maybes.

The people who think we can just rejoin the EU with all the privileges afforded to the UK to get us to join the first time around are so deluded it's unreal. No way we can rejoin the EU and keep the pound. I wonder how far the UK has to fall before people come to terms with the political reality the UK faces post-Brexit.

I suspect it'd have to be pretty fucking far.

[MUFC]

44 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

@Devil-Dick Willie if I'd said something like "Milliband can't be PM because he eats like a weirdo" you'd maybe have a point. But Corbyn being inept at dealing with things that should be pretty easy for any "leader" to deal with when they're an opposition party leader and letting that affect how he's viewed in the media is down to his ability entirely.

He invited pressure on himself and constantly wound up putting his foot in his mouth. And you're right, of course the media will prefer  tories - they basically run the media, including the BBC. Which is why any Labour leader is going to need to have some bit of brains about them to deflect bullshit the media throws at them and reframe media messaging being positive towards Labour. It's literally part of the job because it's not like mass media run by billionaire dickheads is going to go anywhere anytime soon.

It's probably the most crucial thing needed from a Labour leader in order to get elected, regardless of political beliefs.

 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The people who think we can just rejoin the EU with all the privileges afforded to the UK to get us to join the first time around are so deluded it's unreal. No way we can rejoin the EU and keep the pound. I wonder how far the UK has to fall before people come to terms with the political reality the UK faces post-Brexit.

I suspect it'd have to be pretty fucking far.

They aren't deluded. They just aren't educated about the political reality. Because there are no mechanisms in the UK for good information to be delivered into the public sphere. Politicians have every incentive to lie to suit their own needs with no significant consequences, the majority of the privately-owned media is utterly corrupt and the BBC has been cowed so badly by the last few years of Tory government that they won't relay accurate information about anything political in their programming for fear of getting hammered on their impartiality rules.

Most people still don't have the first idea that you can't just "reverse Brexit" and you can't expect them to because, unless they've gone looking for the information themselves or happen to have acquired some relevant knowledge through their education, nobody's ever told them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

They aren't deluded. They just aren't educated about the political reality. Because there are no mechanisms in the UK for good information to be delivered into the public sphere. Politicians have every incentive to lie to suit their own needs with no significant consequences, the majority of the privately-owned media is utterly corrupt and the BBC has been cowed so badly by the last few years of Tory government that they won't relay accurate information about anything political in their programming for fear of getting hammered on their impartiality rules.

Most people still don't have the first idea that you can't just "reverse Brexit" and you can't expect them to because, unless they've gone looking for the information themselves or happen to have acquired some relevant knowledge through their education, nobody's ever told them.

Fair point.

It's one of those things though where I just can't see anything getting better until things get much worse to where reality is basically smacking them in the face to get them to open their eyes.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

I literally said tories basically control the media 

In any case, all Corbyn had to do was do what Starmer did... unequivocally condemn anti-semitism. It's weird that he wasn't able to do so, tbh. And any Labour leader not prepared to deal with a hostile media that will attack them for anything and everything is a woefully unprepared Labour leader who's not suited for the role.

In my lifetime though, we've never had a good PM. The closest we have to a "good PM" is Tony Blair and Tony Blair is a piece of shit that wasn't flushed down and came to life. I'm sure the next PM will also be a massive piece of shit.

But you've not the wit to see what role that plays in undermining the strongest labor candidates so you end up with white bread filler like Starmer instead. Shame. 

You're getting a Joe Biden. A safe stand in that the powers that be will concede to over someone capable of rocking the boat ALA Bernie or Corbyn.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

But you've not the wit to see what role that plays in undermining the strongest labor candidates so you end up with white bread filler like Starmer instead. Shame. 

You're getting a Joe Biden. A safe stand in that the powers that be will concede to over someone capable of rocking the boat ALA Bernie or Corbyn.  

If you're not an anti-semite and you let accusations of anti-semitism undermine you because you simply refused to properly condemn anti-semitism... it's not just the media that's undermined you. He played his own part in undermining himself.

And if you can't handle that kind of media pressure before you've even won a position of power... well then you're not going to last long if you ever win power. Because any labour leader should absolutely know they're not going to get the kid gloves Boris & co found themselves being punched with, they'll be getting the Mike Tyson in his prime treatment.

Messaging and media managing is important. It's more important than actual policies for winning elections because most people on the planet are more stupid than you, I, or most people on these forums can imagine. It honestly should be the baseline for anyone with any hopes of any sort of aspiration for political leadership.

And honestly, comparing Bernie Sanders to Corbyn is a disservice to Bernie Sanders. Sanders' messaging is so good that he was twice a contender to lead the US democratic party in the presidential primaries. To really hammer home why that demonstrates he's so good at messaging... he's not even a member of the democratic party, he's an independent. And I think he's aware enough to know that despite how well he did in those primaries, he never really had a shot (especially the first time around when he was considered an outsider threat to the democratic party) - but used his messaging to promote his policies, which in turn influenced younger left-leaning politicians who then got elected to the US house of representatives.

Granted, any time Sanders has had to fight accusations of anti-semitism, he's got an easy way of effectively dealing with that shit: he's Jewish. In any case, Corbyn could have learned from Sanders past condemnations of something that should be so remarkably easy to shoot down.

But I'm not surprised that Corbyn is infinitely more inept than Bernie Sanders. UK leadership and ineptitude go hand in hand.

[Stan]

Great to know the current PM has his priorities straight! 

Don't worry about fixing the economy or the NHS which is literally at breaking point. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

9 hours ago, Stan said:

Great to know the current PM has his priorities straight! 

Don't worry about fixing the economy or the NHS which is literally at breaking point. 

To be fair, it's very hard to fix the economy with people, whose math skills are limited to counting to hundred. Indeed improving the math skills is a very efficient way to fix the economicy long-term.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[RandoEFC+]

They already can't recruit enough maths teachers and haven't been able to for years. When I trained almost a decade ago now, I took over one class in a placement school who had a Maths teacher once, a Music teacher twice and a Geography teacher once each week for their four lessons. If there's a problem with the quality of Maths or general education in this country then maybe start there?

I'm seeing a lot on social media about people leaving school not knowing how to do their taxes. Fine, then reform the Maths GCSE. I'd be all for that if it was done by someone serious and talented and not a random politician who hasn't set foot in a classroom for 20 years and has been an Education minister for six months. We could gear the Maths qualification in the UK a bit further away from some of the geometry and abstract algebra stuff that's still taught and further towards financial management, percentages, proportional reasoning and understanding data. But these are real solutions from someone with expertise so there's no room for it in British politics.

[Stan]

53 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

To be fair, it's very hard to fix the economy with people, whose math skills are limited to counting to hundred. Indeed improving the math skills is a very efficient way to fix the economicy long-term.

Is this some kind of dig at the British public?

[Rucksackfranzose]

23 minutes ago, Stan said:

Is this some kind of dig at the British public?

No, it was an exaggeration to make my point more insistent, lacking better ways to do so since English isn't my native language and I'm not very eloquent speaking it , therefore. In my honest opinion, there would have been a lot less insolvencies and bankruptcies everywhere in the world, if the respective entrepreneurs would have been capable of correctly calculating  their expenses and revenue- math skills are helpful with this. Also economy has a lot to do with math, therefore math skills are helpful, didn't want to say more. Point with better math skills bettering the odds to fix economic issues still stands.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose