UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[SirBalon]

Or maybe it’s better to be poor and offer a worse future for our children just for the sake of sovereignty (the one we always had) and a more British way of life more in tune with 1940s very British Britain were so many people were poor and hungry. They could leave their doors open (apparently) and nobody would trespass (because there was probably nothing to take)... But it was Britain, Great Brtain, full of British people and no dirty foreign meddling in our elitist governance. 

Unicorns do exist!

[Panna King]

On 27/11/2018 at 00:54, SirBalon said:

I was about to answer you myself in my own words because this is something I know quite a bit about and it's a historical vicious circle in Spain that has various reasons behind high youth unemployment  I've witnessed it various times throughout my life and I lived in Spain for 10 years while witnessing it about to occur again before I returned to London.

In the end I though it better to try and find an article that explained it better and in an easier manner to you but found it difficult at first to find one in English as I didn't want to translate it as that defeated the object and put me into a problem of having to work hard for nothing because you are never going to change your mind, you continue to want to drive your car into the fire while its doused in petrol.

Luckily in the end the New York Times came to my rescue and I'm thankful for it.

Another thing...  Don't worry about the monetary system too much as here were talking about the UK leaving the EU and the UK aren't in the single currency (the Euro Zone).

There are no mysteries mate... The EU isn't a perfect system because a perfect system doesn't exist.  But it's a hell of a lot better than what we voted for, of that I can guarantee you as FACT not some rhetoric those you choose to listen to or read.

Wake up, I advise you to do it now mate and I'm not being condescendingly  come to your senses and forget the bullshit because you're being fed lies and fables.  Don't let pride get the better of you, I changed my mind and felt like a fool once I started to study the situation in depth for myself AND ONLY THEN, ONLY AFTER THAT started to listen to and read the right people because I was on the right path.  Although it's probably for no use in the end if this disaster continues...

Heres the article copied and pasted and at the bottom the link.

 

It was welcome news Friday when Europe’s economies reportedhigher-than-expected growth. The region, after all, has had to deal with rolling debt crises, terrorist attacks, an influx of refugees and migrants, and the possibility that Britain may vote to leave the European Union.

Then there is Spain. Across Europe, economic growth has helped bring the unemployment rate down. But in Spain, the rate is 20 percent, according to European Union surveys, and has been above that level for over five years, even as the country’s economy has been recovering.

You’d be forgiven for thinking that such a high level of joblessness, weighing on families for so long, would have caused the country to crack by now. The jobless number is so much higher than the rate for other economic laggards like Italy (11 percent) and Portugal (12 percent).

Certainly, some of Spain’s unemployment is overstated because some workers have off-the-books jobs. And people may feel optimistic because unemployment has fallen in recent quarters, from 25 percent two years ago.

Still, Spanish officials recently said they did not expect the jobless rate to fall below 15 percent until 2019. And there’s the matter of the country’s youth unemployment (those under 25): an almost incomprehensible 45.5 percent.

A new government in Spain — once it is chosen after almost half a year of discord — may end up pursuing smarter and bolder policies that reduce joblessness to levels that exist elsewhere in Europe.

But the chances of that look slim.

Spain’s unemployment is so high partly because of particular local forces that have existed for decades. Marcel Jansen, an expert on labor markets at the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, notes that unemployment above 20 percent is not uncommon in Spain. In fact, it has been at that level in three periods since Spain’s transition to democracy in the 1970s. And, ominously, from the previous unemployment rate peak in the 1990s, it took 14 years for it to decline to the wider European level, Mr. Jansen notes.

One cause of the high rate became embedded in Spain’s labor market over the last 40 years. A significant proportion of Spain’s workers emerged from the dictatorship years with ironclad job security. Many of those protections remained, Mr. Jansen said, but much of the new hiring in the democratic era took place through temporary employment contracts. Just before the 2008 financial crisis, around a third of Spain’s workers were on temporary contracts, far higher than the European average.

When the crisis hit, it was very easy to lay off the temporary workers. True, during the recent recovery, the high use of temporary contracts has most likely spurred Spanish firms to bolster their hiring. But the persistence of overly protective labor contracts alongside temporary ones with too few protections has probably also created inefficiencies within Spanish companies that have dampened economic growth.

Mr. Jansen’s preferred solution is to introduce a new contract that could increase protections for temporary workers and loosen them for many permanent workers. But he said Spain’s politicians had shown little support for this idea.

Something else is making matters worse right now. Much of Spain’s working-age population does not have an education beyond high school. And many of those people have remained unemployed for multiple years after the financial crisis of 2008. (Nearly a fourth of the unemployed have been without work for four years or more.)

Such workers are increasingly losing contact with the industries they worked in, and that will make it even harder for them to find jobs. And hiring in Spain’s construction industry, a big employer before the crisis, is not likely to return to precrisis levels anytime soon. Mr. Jansen says helping the long-term unemployed requires a substantial overhaul of Spain’s retraining programs. But this costs money, and Spain has one of the largest budget deficits in Europe.

This is where we bump into the big economic debate that looms over the Continent. On one side are those who insist that struggling countries must pursue policies that cut government spending and free up markets, to spur strong and sustainable growth. As we have learned, Spain’s labor market could certainly do with some big changes. But as we have also seen, these changes are far from imminent. They are expensive. They threaten entrenched interests. Spain’s leaders are so divided that they can’t form an administration that could attempt bold moves.

Economists on the other side of the debate emphasize the need for the European Union as a whole to come together to introduce big top-down actions. Such policies include debt forgiveness and far greater fiscal stimulus. Spain’s sky-high unemployment has not moved Europe’s leaders to take such steps by now. Then again, Europe can’t count on Spain — or any country — to tolerate this high level of joblessness forever.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/03/upshot/spains-jobless-numbers-almost-look-like-misprints.html

Marcel Jansen...The Dutch always have the best ideas! 

[SirBalon]

So the Bank of England have just released a statement saying;

”No deal would send the country into mayhem and a total crisis. It would be much worse than the 2008 Economic recession!”

And this is what many of the Brexit (leave) voters wanted... To go it alone because we’re great and we don’t need them.

Bloody hell!

Although those that believe in tall stories will say this is scare mongering. 

[Panna King]

11 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

So the Bank of England have just released a statement saying;

”No deal would send the country into mayhem and a total crisis. It would be much worse than the 2008 Economic recession!”

And this is what many of the Brexit (leave) voters wanted... To go it alone because we’re great and we don’t need them.

Bloody hell!

Although those that believe in tall stories will say this is scare mongering. 

The Arabs will be in charge of The United Kingdom once they have bailed them out the mess. 

[SirBalon]

15 minutes ago, Panna King said:

The Arabs will be in charge of The United Kingdom once they have bailed them out the mess. 

Theories are abundant and my favourite one that’s made me chuckle a bit is the one in The Independent which says that if it ends in NO DEAL when Parliament votes, that the Queen could disolve Government and place a Remain Governemt in its stead. 

[SirBalon]

[The Artful Dodger]

Problem is this will just be spun as 'Project fear 2.0', indeed David Davis referred to it as such earlier on today. These are just predictions, I don't believe they are politically motivated I believe they are made with the best efforts to be true, I think even the most ardent Brexiteer will allow it to be said that the UK economy will if not struggle for a period, not do as well as it would have being in the EU. What they claim is that this will be a temporary thing, we should defer our gratification and ride it out for something better. It won't put people off voting Brexit. Carney has been right on some things and wrong on others but the economy is so fragile for more reasons than Brexit and it begs the question why more isn't being asked about what actually underpins the whole system, in or out of the EU. Still nobody is willing to have this conversation in any serious way, therefore the economic crash will happen, it just might be worse than it would have been.

Edited November 28, 2018 by The Artful Dodger

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Problem is this will just be spun as 'Project fear 2.0', indeed David Davis referred to it as such earlier on today. These are just predictions, I don't believe they are politically motivated I believe they are made with the best efforts to be true, I think even the most ardent Brexiteer will allow it to be said that the UK economy will if not struggle for a period, not do as well as it would have being in the EU. What they claim is that this will be a temporary thing, we should defer our gratification and ride it out for something better. It won't put people off voting Brexit. Carney has been right on some things and wrong on others but the economy is so fragile for more reasons than Brexit and it begs the question why more isn't being asked about what actually underpins the whole system, in or out of the EU. Still nobody is willing to have this conversation in any serious way, therefore the economic crash will happen, it just might be worse than it would have been.

We know more than enough now to recognise that Brexit (especially with no deal) will mean a total collapse economically and it won’t be just a period in terms of 5 or 6 years. That much is clear now. The scaremongering was done before people knew anything about it all and especially before the referendum.

But then again you still have egotistical self serving individuals in the political sphere that continue to be extremely irresponsible and lie. The unicornists will still believe they can drive their petrol doused cars into the raging fire that’s ever closer. 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 27/11/2018 at 09:12, Dr. Gonzo said:

TF365’s Muslim hating culture warrior is insisting that immigration played a small part in Brexit and I am to take that seriously? 

Yes, you are considering that after the referendum vote, UKIP who made the anti immigrant vote their core policy we’re wiped out in the general election and the two main parties that were leave and campaigned on economic policies hoovered up. The main stream remain party the Lib Dem’s were also wiped out. 

I get it your relatives feel a bit “threatened” and the guardian would have you believe anti Muslim sentiment was all stirred up by Brexit. The reality is that last year we had several attacks and children were slaughtered “in the Allah” piss be upon him. And we’ve got organised sexual exploitation on an industrial scale, you would get anti Muslim sentiment regardless of Brexit. Much the same as you got anti Irish sentiment with the IRA years ago, committing terrorist atrocities and rampant sexual assault has that effect on people. 

21 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Official statement from the British Chancellor this monring. That's just a screenshot of the news.

But yet I’m pretty sure the unicornists will continue to believe in unicorns and that we ALL need to believe because that’s the reason things are going to be awful.

That, and I’m sure that the blame will be put on governmental individuals that are really REMAINERS and that there’s a conspiratorial agenda going on to thwart British Independence LaLaLand. 

 

16 hours ago, SirBalon said:

So the Bank of England have just released a statement saying;

”No deal would send the country into mayhem and a total crisis. It would be much worse than the 2008 Economic recession!”

And this is what many of the Brexit (leave) voters wanted... To go it alone because we’re great and we don’t need them.

Bloody hell!

Although those that believe in tall stories will say this is scare mongering. 

Well it is, “well run out of food” and “people will die” has desensitised the ears of the populace to it. The Bank of England have Said this but Carmel is a Remainer, King is pro Brexit and has dismissed it. 

The treasury fear a recession and most brits who’ve plumbed for leave expect some kind of dip, your getting all excited about it as if all of a sudden these people have more weight on the subject is funny, especially considering we’ve not suffered the effects of project fear 1.0 and our performed estimates in terms of growth since. 

At the end of the day you can bitch & whine all you like most people I know that voted leave did it because of sovereignty and a desire to forge our own trade partnerships post Brexit. 

[Inverted]

It amuses me that "people will die" is held up as an extremely, almost comically apocalyptic prediction that could not imaginably happen, when economic hardship and austerity already contributes to thousands of excess deaths.

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Yes, you are considering that after the referendum vote, UKIP who made the anti immigrant vote their core policy we’re wiped out in the general election and the two main parties that were leave and campaigned on economic policies hoovered up. The main stream remain party the Lib Dem’s were also wiped out. 

I get it your relatives feel a bit “threatened” and the guardian would have you believe anti Muslim sentiment was all stirred up by Brexit. The reality is that last year we had several attacks and children were slaughtered “in the Allah” piss be upon him. And we’ve got organised sexual exploitation on an industrial scale, you would get anti Muslim sentiment regardless of Brexit. Much the same as you got anti Irish sentiment with the IRA years ago, committing terrorist atrocities and rampant sexual assault has that effect on people. 

 

Well it is, “well run out of food” and “people will die” has desensitised the ears of the populace to it. The Bank of England have Said this but Carmel is a Remainer, King is pro Brexit and has dismissed it. 

The treasury fear a recession and most brits who’ve plumbed for leave expect some kind of dip, your getting all excited about it as if all of a sudden these people have more weight on the subject is funny, especially considering we’ve not suffered the effects of project fear 1.0 and our performed estimates in terms of growth since. 

At the end of the day you can bitch & whine all you like most people I know that voted leave did it because of sovereignty and a desire to forge our own trade partnerships post Brexit. 

On the point where you quoted me I answer you in depth at a later date to show you how the economy is messed up and also how as I said, you choose to beilieve those reproachable people who continue to want to take the country into a black hole. But that later...

On the but where you quoted @Dr. Gonzo...

Remember this...

 

[SirBalon]

The crazy thing about the anti-Muslim campaigns by leavers especially that creep Farage who has made sure his children enjoy freedom of movement by obtaining them a German passport, the crazy part is that there is no Islamic based EU member and those that committed the atrocities of grooming young girls are of Pakistani origin which at least when I studied a bit of geography at school wasn't in Europe... Infact the UK gains more permanent immigration from outside Europe (the EU), that's a statistical fact!  Not that there's anything wrong with Pakistani people coming over or from anywhere if they want to add and not subtract from our hospitality. 

It's all nonsense, it's all rubbish that's been fed like I showed a week back on over 20 years of newspaper headlines in our British newspapers with lies and falsehoods regarding the EU.

[The Artful Dodger]

If you want extremely intelligent, logical and rational conservative voice then look to someone like Peter Hitchens. He makes very decent, profound arguments for leaving the EU.

Fairy is from the Tommy Robinson absolute imbecile mould of thinking, and that is why we have so much to fear from Brexit because it is being led by people with little intellectual capability. This country is completely stupid, just look at our modern culture. Look at the majority of posts in this thread, or forum as a whole, we're fucked.

Edited November 29, 2018 by The Artful Dodger

[Dr. Gonzo]

Wow what a surprise that UKIP ceased being relevant after Brexit, almost like that was pretty much their sole policy position and after their “charismatic” twat leader fucked off they stood for just open racism. And we all know our British racism is best left subtle, so they just went back to being Tory voters.

and no @Fairy In Boots, the Persian side is no more or less threatened than it’s ever been in the UK by Brexit. They’ve been British citizens for decades, it’s not like you’ll be able to send them home for being brown now. They’ve been dealing with bigoted idiots since they’ve come to the country, but largely have remained safe/unaffected from the morons. And I suspect that nothing will change in that regard with Brexit. In fact it’s probably better than the 80s when police beat the shit out of my uncle for being a brown person that had the nerve to get the shit kicked out of him by racists.

And @SirBalon posted just one ad, but go look at how much of the Brexit campaigning was based around immigration. It looks like it makes up 50% of the campaign material or more.

Weirdly enough you don’t see too much of the campaign material bring up “British sovereignty”. It’s mostly anti-Muslim, anti-Polish shite or lying about how much being in the EU costs us and how that money will still be around if we leave and how much better things will be. Almost like that’s an obscure concept that is now being used to hide the bigoted and dishonest rhetoric that brought us to where we are now...

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

The crazy thing about the anti-Muslim campaigns by leavers especially that creep Farage who has made sure his children enjoy freedom of movement by obtaining them a German passport, the crazy part is that there is no Islamic based EU member and those that committed the atrocities of grooming young girls are of Pakistani origin which at least when I studied a bit of geography at school wasn't in Europe... Infact the UK gains more permanent immigration from outside Europe (the EU), that's a statistical fact!  Not that there's anything wrong with Pakistani people coming over or from anywhere if they want to add and not subtract from our hospitality. 

It's all nonsense, it's all rubbish that's been fed like I showed a week back on over 20 years of newspaper headlines in our British newspapers with lies and falsehoods regarding the EU.

Or Rees-Mogg moving headquarters of his businesses to Ireland... really demonstrates great confidence in British industry now that we’ve voted for “our sovereignty” to fuck off out of Britain.

Disaster capitalists have wanted no deal from day one.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

If you want extremely intelligent, logical and rational conservative voice then look to someone like Peter Hithcens. He makes very decent, profound arguments for leaving the EU.

Fairy is from the Tommy Robinson absolute imbecile mould of thinking, and that is why we have so much to fear from Brexit because it is being led by people with little intellectual capability. This country is completely stupid, just look at our modern culture.

The only feasible way a Brexit could've been completed and negotiated properly with the EU is if FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT (one of the four pillars of EU doctrine) hadn't had been used as the weapon to separate from the Union.  The moment that was made the overriding factor, we were always going to lose and not be able to negotiate something resembling a better deal than was subsequently possible.

But even then, statistically in every way possible, nothing whatsoever beats staying in the EU where a positive future is concerned and I'll add one other thing... Being separated from the EU shoots us in the foot as we would subsequently have absolutely no say whatsoever on rules and regulations, we wouldn't be able to veto anything or be part of creating new regulations.  The regulations we have been a massive part of for almost 40 years for the betterment of British people (as also EU citizens everywhere).  Let's go into WTO rules where these rules, regulations and quality controls don't even exist?

[The Artful Dodger]

The Remain side is on the whole, not any better when it comes to intellectual rigour and originality of thought. David Lammy et al may mean well but just tweeting repeatedly 'Peoples vote', is lazy, vapid politics and typical of this whole farce.

[SirBalon]

29 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

The Remain side is on the whole, not any better when it comes to intellectual rigour and originality of thought. David Lammy et al may mean well but just tweeting repeatedly 'Peoples vote', is lazy, vapid politics and typical of this whole farce.

Britain has it's worst bunch of politicians in my lifetime and possibly in history although I can't generate the valid info to prove the latter.  Without a doubt British people have almost been left on their own throughout this whole mess but I reiterate that staying in the EU is the best option for Britian, the best outcome based on facts, not theory or fairy tales about unicorns existing and us being able to obtain them.  All of the info is now readily available for all if they take their heads out of the clouds... The info is now available in a manner all can understand backed by reality.

This is why a people's vote (a new referendum) is vital because we didn't have the truth before as has been proved in matter of posts above and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the whole nightmare we've been subjected to as citizens.  Even NOW some continue to lie and feed lies and false propaganda.

[SirBalon]

All this rubbish leavers say about those that either voted to remain or have subsequently changed their minds due to the FACTS becoming evident and non negotiable that they should back "the will of the people" when the country is split practically in half (without accounting for those in the leave camp that have changed their minds like myself) is absolutely ridiculous.

In every walk of life people make decisions, execute actions or simply do things that at times end up being serious errors of judgment.  Here we're not talking about the mundane things in life, those things that can affect you in the immediate and where you have an opportunity to repent and change quickly because of the evidence.  Here we're talking about the country, a nation with all of its inhabitants... To not be able to reflect and swallow one's pride isn't just questionable on the character of that person and what their agenda really is, but also totally relegates them (due to all the facts) to individuals one should unfortunately put to one side because there is no help for them as they are searching for something completely different and something most common people aren't in tune with thankfully.

Since when has separation been better than union and working things out together.

Note...

Power comes from within and never from afar.  Destruction is only ever met from afar.

[Kowabunga]

It is a testament to the persistence of the long enduring Pro-Brexit campaign (not since 2015, but decades of brain-drilling using the toxic UK media environment, now enforced with social media) the way those campaigners made british voters forget about getting very simple "cause-effect relations" that a 5-year-old toddler could grasp by playing to connect dots on a paper. Take for instance, our cherished @SirBalon , someone as far a I understood working in the business of "advertising"!? getting persuaded by the fuzzy siren songs of "muh sovereignty" without real proof of actual control. Is this sorcery, or rather social media  is frying our brains?

All of that because your privileged elite of usual suspects wanted to make a booty out of the misery of the average Joe? Sad.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Kowabunga

[SirBalon]

51 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

It is a testament to the persistence of the long enduring Pro-Brexit campaign (not since 2015, but decades of brain-drilling using the toxic UK media environment, now enforced with social media) the way those campaigners made british voters forget about getting very simple "cause-effect relations" that a 5-year-old toddler could grasp by playing to connect dots on a paper. Take for instance, our cherished @SirBalon , someone as far a I understood working in the business of "advertising"!? getting persuaded by the fuzzy siren songs of "muh sovereignty" without real proof of actual control. Is this sorcery, or rather social media  is frying our brains?

All of that because your privileged elite of usual suspects wanted to make a booty out of the misery of the average Joe? Sad.

Everyone is susceptible to market forces and consumerism whatever the financial bracket or ideological doctrine mate.  Some of the most intelligent people that have made a mark have self confessed to having committed those types of errors and they don't apologise and myself included.  I am only human at the end of the day and although that's a common get out clause via a cliché, it doesn't stop being an unfortunate fact of life.

The media is extremely powerful and in a case such as where anti-European sentiments are in question, we're talking of decades of dedicated media force feeding these sensations to the people.  You can't get away from all of that and remember that a large proportion of that period was pre-Internet with all of its benefits... Also remember that Internet isn't all positive as it is also full of the manipulation I've just cited in abundance.  It all depends on how conditioned you have become which determines where you search for your news or which key words you type into your search engine.

As a seemingly ridiculous example although when you think carefully about it and take into account on its fundamental directive I give you this strange, very contemporary and everyday situation that tells us a lot...

We've all seen discounts in many forms from your Internet market to your supermarket magazine with cut-out discount coupons....  They exist in every single financial wage bracket publication from the poorest to the very wealthy... They exist because they are used, they are produced because work has previously been done to convince you of the need to purchase and believe in the necessity of your needs.  We all use them, we are all susceptible to it and we must surely be forgiven for falling into the trap with the honest understanding that we comprehend the method.

But here we're talking about something that using common sense can be changed with reflection. Here we're debating and discussing a situation that is reversible in its totality by revoking the activation of article 50. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

It is a testament to the persistence of the long enduring Pro-Brexit campaign (not since 2015, but decades of brain-drilling using the toxic UK media environment, now enforced with social media) the way those campaigners made british voters forget about getting very simple "cause-effect relations" that a 5-year-old toddler could grasp by playing to connect dots on a paper. Take for instance, our cherished @SirBalon , someone as far a I understood working in the business of "advertising"!? getting persuaded by the fuzzy siren songs of "muh sovereignty" without real proof of actual control. Is this sorcery, or rather social media  is frying our brains?

All of that because your privileged elite of usual suspects wanted to make a booty out of the misery of the average Joe? Sad.

Euroskeptics making emotional arguments rather than substantive policy arguments has been so effective. Look at Nigel Farage, a man who's been elected as an MEP numerous times and he's never once fought for better British representation in the EU, he's used his position to collect a big salary from the EU while continuously trolling the entire European Parliament, essentially just using the position for soundbites as to why the UK should leave the EU. There's always been very little substance behind what he says on Europe and the EU, but he's humourous and charismatic and has managed to sway a lot of people into believing him just through being able to make people laugh and by seeming relateable despite telling lies about the roles of EU regulations and their effect on Britain.

Although I think everyone should view Farage as a hypocritical dipshit based on his views on: tax avoidance (which is okay for him, but not for others apparently) and what he'll do if Brexit is a dismal failure (by his own admission, he'll just fuck off to the US).

[Fairy In Boots]

13 hours ago, Inverted said:

It amuses me that "people will die" is held up as an extremely, almost comically apocalyptic prediction that could not imaginably happen, when economic hardship and austerity already contributes to thousands of excess deaths.

Funny how you point that out when criticising economic policy to balance books but have a blind spot when it comes to death caused by economic policies inspired by socialist governments. To quote Thomas Sowell “Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it”

13 hours ago, SirBalon said:

On the point where you quoted me I answer you in depth at a later date to show you how the economy is messed up and also how as I said, you choose to beilieve those reproachable people who continue to want to take the country into a black hole. But that later...

On the but where you quoted @Dr. Gonzo...

Remember this...

 

And remember I acknowledge that UKIP and Farage did have an impact on the vote, but as I’ve said about a dozen times. It wasn’t the sole motivation for leavers, it’s lazy to just brand leavers as “EDL Tommy Robinson types” but alas you’re going to repeat this as much as your “car and petrol / fire” analogie you seem proud of. 

13 hours ago, SirBalon said:

The crazy thing about the anti-Muslim campaigns by leavers especially that creep Farage who has made sure his children enjoy freedom of movement by obtaining them a German passport, the crazy part is that there is no Islamic based EU member and those that committed the atrocities of grooming young girls are of Pakistani origin which at least when I studied a bit of geography at school wasn't in Europe... Infact the UK gains more permanent immigration from outside Europe (the EU), that's a statistical fact!  Not that there's anything wrong with Pakistani people coming over or from anywhere if they want to add and not subtract from our hospitality. 

It's all nonsense, it's all rubbish that's been fed like I showed a week back on over 20 years of newspaper headlines in our British newspapers with lies and falsehoods regarding the EU.

He played off the fact Turkey will eventually join the EU. Turkey is Muslim that’s where he got traction, especially with the freedom of movement conitations. 

 Again though actually read my posts rather than trying to assign me into some sort of leave stereotype you’ve got in mind. I’ve never once really critiqued immigration during the EU debate, by and large I have no great issue with the influx of polish / Romania / Slovakian people. Cheap labour has suppressed wages however. 

Take a town called Redditch it’s the UK’s largest town it’s 15miles south of Birmingham and it’s metal bashing / old manufacturing. It’s heavily dependent upon migrant labour from Eastern Europe. Brexit means massive change because frankly they’re worried about staff post Brexit, they need to automate their process or pay more, British kids aren’t interested (and this includes 2/3rd generation migrants or “brown people” as Gonzo would call them) because they don’t want to work on a shop floor because they see it as beneath them or poorly paid. Managing Directors up until now haven’t moved with the times to automate or make efficiency improvements because and this is a genuine quote from one to me “why tie up my cash in significant cap ex when the polish labours cheap?” He appreciated that long term it was cheaper and more efficient to automate, but cash is king in business. 

In these instances Brexit is an opportunity because it’s forcing his hand to invest in his business to make it better rather than take advantage of cheap Labour. And they are taken advantage of, some of the jobs the polish are given when they get here are really shite. I’ve worked with loads of Poles, Slovaks, Romanians, Hungarians, Czech etc always been positive and some really clever people. I have a pole friend I helped get a good job because he wasn’t confident with his language but he’s the bollocks on tech systems, he’s earning north of 50k as a commissioning engineer for PLC Scada systems now, he was on minimum wage in a warehouse 3 years ago. It would be absolutely idiotic to want to remove someone from the U.K. with that sort of ability, likewise it’s idiotic to consign them to mind numbing labour tasks that are poorly paid. 

I’ve critiqued immigration and I’m a big critic of Islam & the wisdom of Islamic migration,  but the two things aren’t related with regards to the EU, Turkey is a hypothetical which I’m against. 

And fake news works both ways, for example you’ve held Carney up today as some sort of authority on Brexit, a man stepping down within the first quarter post Brexit, who’s doom & gloom predictions pre Brexit vote showed him for twat he is. A man also sat in a board called the ECB which is responsible for the fiscal policy of EU states and for all intents & purposes conducts itself similarly to FIFA. It’s widely known that Italy’s next appointment will be the descided by France & Germany first before its put to the other states and a personnel trade off ensues. Can you not see the problem with that? Or is that sovereignty? 

You can nitpick the legality of each individual law all you like, the reality is when you have a block of 27 factions acting as one faction, the largest faction dominates the direction through various methods of brinkmanship. This is what has happened in the EU, it’s what will continue to happen and if you fall foul of it your fucked ala Greece. 

It works in all forms of life, factions in the Arsenal squad for example having to much power which can cause detrimental effects to others or the whole, during the Wenger years no doubt have happened, I could bore you with Villa examples.  This is just a fact of life, leavers take the opinion that better to take matters into your own hands rather than be beholden to others and hope your position changes. 

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Wow what a surprise that UKIP ceased being relevant after Brexit, almost like that was pretty much their sole policy position and after their “charismatic” twat leader fucked off they stood for just open racism. And we all know our British racism is best left subtle, so they just went back to being Tory voters.

and no @Fairy In Boots, the Persian side is no more or less threatened than it’s ever been in the UK by Brexit. They’ve been British citizens for decades, it’s not like you’ll be able to send them home for being brown now. They’ve been dealing with bigoted idiots since they’ve come to the country, but largely have remained safe/unaffected from the morons. And I suspect that nothing will change in that regard with Brexit. In fact it’s probably better than the 80s when police beat the shit out of my uncle for being a brown person that had the nerve to get the shit kicked out of him by racists.

And @SirBalon posted just one ad, but go look at how much of the Brexit campaigning was based around immigration. It looks like it makes up 50% of the campaign material or more.

Weirdly enough you don’t see too much of the campaign material bring up “British sovereignty”. It’s mostly anti-Muslim, anti-Polish shite or lying about how much being in the EU costs us and how that money will still be around if we leave and how much better things will be. Almost like that’s an obscure concept that is now being used to hide the bigoted and dishonest rhetoric that brought us to where we are now...

Lol  the irony of you saying British Racism is best left subtle then insinuating that Tory’s are racists they probably are in some quarters but so are you with that comment. 

the reason I mentioned your family is you’ve said to me previously that although you don’t live in the UK and haven’t been here for sometime you had family here that felt victimised or at least they felt there was much more anti Islam feeling post referendum. As I said above I think it’s got far more to do with social & terrorist issues, but you’ve got your finger on the pulse being 6-7 thousand miles away. 

Also as i’ve now said numerous times yes there’s no doubt Farage & UKIP picked up on immigration being a hot topic in the lead up to the referendum and he capitalised on it. He wasn’t the official campaign though. Can’t you lot accept that Brecit was a sum of things rather than one single thing?

13 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

If you want extremely intelligent, logical and rational conservative voice then look to someone like Peter Hitchens. He makes very decent, profound arguments for leaving the EU.

Fairy is from the Tommy Robinson absolute imbecile mould of thinking, and that is why we have so much to fear from Brexit because it is being led by people with little intellectual capability. This country is completely stupid, just look at our modern culture. Look at the majority of posts in this thread, or forum as a whole, we're fucked.

Lazy again I don’t know quite why there’s an insistence on this forum to lump me in with a Tommy Robinson, a man I’ve never really defended on here. Oh wait is it because I’m a vocal critic of Islam? That’s it, “he doesn’t think that Islam is a religion of peace so I bet he has Facebook states about St George’s day not being allowed to be celebrated, is a free Tommy campaigner and he tours the shit working class town of the North resplendent in stone island gear chanting ding dong the lights are flashing”.  It’s just so lazy it really is. 

You’re right about politicians being thick and the whole system is the problem in reality, they go to school/ then uni / then politics and never develop and real life skills or principles. They often then just pursue power, I often think the thick of it although satire was pretty much bang on. 

Also im a big fan of Peter hitchins, I was a huge fan of his Brother RIP a man that like me would chew anybody’s arse out who defended Islam, they see the danger heading down the track with giving ground to it. 

If my posts don’t do justice to them, oh well I’m a cunt on a obscure football forum, tapping away a sentence at a time 5mins here & there while supervising toddlers and working two jobs and choosing to continually argue with the same 5-6 people who’ve already made their minds up about me and my opinions in a 5 on 1 topic.

Frankly your lucky it’s coherent I’ve often forgotten what I’ve written in the paragraph before because it’s spread over several hours. I’ve been on this reply since 2pm

[God is Haaland]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

And remember I acknowledge that UKIP and Farage did have an impact on the vote, but as I’ve said about a dozen times. It wasn’t the sole motivation for leavers, it’s lazy to just brand leavers as “EDL Tommy Robinson types” but alas you’re going to repeat this as much as your “car and petrol / fire” analogie you seem proud of. 

Hah! Found the filthy, sabotaging kraut.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I’ve literally just come back from visiting my family and it’s not like I can’t keep in touch with them every day because it’s not 1970something and things like the internet and mobile phones exist. 

Also since when are tories a fucking race?!