UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Kowabunga said:

"£350m a week will be spent on our NHS"

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"there will be adequate food"

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"corpse piling is going to be run smoothly"

 

Exactly... Jacob Rees-Mogg compared him to Harold Shipman (or was that someone else in the last week) and called him a remoaner amongst other things.

It was all gonna be amazing pre-referendum and soon after until the remoaners started to question it all.

Trust me, and this goes for any other Euro 27... There is absolutely NOTHING to be gained from leaving the EU, infact it's considerably the total opposite depending on how you leave but every departure is worse than being a member.

[Dr. Gonzo]

People on the right: CORBYN IS AN ANTI-SEMITE

Also people on the right: https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/08/anna-soubry-saw-nazi-salutes-pro-brexit-rally-cancelled-speech-10706642/

Also I never really understood why British nationlists would use a German nationalist salute - particularly as our triumph over the Nazis is something that I can understand being proud of being British for. I suppose that's maybe giving them too much credit - I doubt they're cued up on history or really even think very much about what they do.

And yeah, not everyone who's pro-Brexit is going to be a racist idiot. But the ones that scapegoat Muslims, Jews, Eastern Europeans, Indians, Pakistanis, Africans, etc... and blame them for them "being left behind" - when in reality it's been Westminster that's largely turned it's back on UK communities. Those are the ones I'll never take seriously.

[RandoEFC+]

It's barely even about the EU at this point. For me it's more about realising just how utterly fucked this country is when all that parliament and the media have talked about for three years is Brexit yet 90% of people you pass on the street probably couldn't list three factual statements about Brexit or the EU without one of them including a distorted statistic/lie they've read in a newspaper or on social media from some obsessed cunt on one side or another.

I saw two polls from today from the same source. One of them said more people prefer to delay Brexit than leave without a deal on October 31st. Another one said that overall, people would prefer to leave with no deal than remain if a deal can't be struck. Nobody knows what the country fucking wants anymore and until you make every voter in this country take a two month course on the actual benefits and consequences of leaving the European Union they never will, which is why this should never have been put to a referendum in the first place, along with the fact that there are about 600 different possible Brexits, not just one, that all have hugely different implications on people's lives and would change the way some people would vote if you asked them Leave or Remain again.

Our problem as a society is reflected in what we're seeing play out in the House of Commons now. We used to be able to sit down and have a conversation with ourselves about these things but social media and this recent phenomenon that politicians have realised they can say what they want regardless of how true or false it is as long as they shout louder than the people pointing out their lies, then they can get away with it. There's not a single major newspaper in this country you can trust, even the BBC are accused of being biased by both sides of the debate. We've lost that ability to have a conversation with ourselves which is why Brexit has become a proverbial shouting match all the way from the pub on a Friday night to Westminster.

Anyone who thinks the majority of MPs actually stand for anything is kidding themselves. Brexit has just become the latest game for them. The Conservatives win if they get out at all costs because it will probably win them the next election as long as they call one before anyone has a chance to weigh up the consequences of their actions. Any Conservatives that value their views on Brexit over securing their pay packet for another 5 years have left, unless indeed their values were Hard Brexit in the first place. Labour see Brexit as an opportunity to get into power, something they'd likely never do with Corbyn at the helm under normal circumstances. The Lib Dems might genuinely believe Remain is the best option but mostly see it as an opportunity to become a relevant option again. 

It's all a disgusting mess. I've barely given a toss about Remain or Leave for years now, because I, like most, accepted the result of the referendum, at least until it emerged that Vote Leave broke electoral law, but then I realised nothing would happen so I was a bit outraged for a while then I got over it again. However, seeing Boris Johnson bumbling around as the leader of this country makes me physically ill under any circumstances, regardless of Brexit, Remain or Leave allegiance. His track record speaks for itself with his inappropriate comments, selfish choices and general lack of fitness for office. If seeing him appointed Prime Minster without an election wasn't an outrage too far, watching him and his puppet master Cummings actively trying to break every convention and bend every law that democracy in this country has been built on for decades, certainly is.

Like I said earlier in the thread, this whole thing could just as easily be a referendum over whether brown bread should be banned from Great Britain. My opinion and vote has and still does go with Remain, but it doesn't matter. Politics and democracy in this country has been reduced to a pathetic, social media driven propaganda war where every tool and tactic is fair game, even if it's illegal in some cases, and regardless of what you think of the EU, that's a sad, sad situation for this nation to find itself in. Once a beacon of democracy and fair and proper conduct, we've been reduced to "pick a side and put 'em up" to resolve our disagreements.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/hp-sauce

That's Aetna and Cigna that played a big part in dismantling community and not-for-profit healthcare in the U.S. in the 70s and 80s. Seems like a far cry from what was put on a few busses a few years ago though.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Anyone who thinks the majority of MPs actually stand for anything is kidding themselves. Brexit has just become the latest game for them. The Conservatives win if they get out at all costs because it will probably win them the next election as long as they call one before anyone has a chance to weigh up the consequences of their actions. Any Conservatives that value their views on Brexit over securing their pay packet for another 5 years have left, unless indeed their values were Hard Brexit in the first place. Labour see Brexit as an opportunity to get into power, something they'd likely never do with Corbyn at the helm under normal circumstances. The Lib Dems might genuinely believe Remain is the best option but mostly see it as an opportunity to become a relevant option again. 

This here is basically how I feel as well, though you can add Plaid Cymru to the above as they've been determined to stop Brexit at all costs, despite the vote (I think I read somewhere that the previous leader Leanne Woods said that 'I only care about the 48%', which says a lot). 

How many MP's honestly give a toss about the UK and are purely using this as an opportunity for political and/or personal gain? 

How many MP's have looked at this fiasco and wondered why people have voted as they did? 

@The Artful Dodger mentioned about the North and mining towns, of which the valleys near me once was and also despise Thatcher and the Tories. Yet despite that, they voted leave. Why?

I think some of these have already been answered but just some thoughts. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

 

@The Artful Dodger mentioned about the North and mining towns, of which the valleys near me once was and also despise Thatcher and the Tories. Yet despite that, they voted leave. Why?

Isn't that a part of what he's talking about though? The people who've felt left behind by the government over the last few decades - voting for something that's probably against their best interests, but because it was a way for them to vote "let's tear this all down." Either because they've believed the scapegoating of the EU, or they think it'll hurt the middle class and the upper class... and then maybe that'll lead to policies being put in place that help these people that were left behind.

In my own personal views, these people who are probably most vulnerable to the negative affects of Brexit that did vote to leave... for whatever reason they had in their head... they're not the smartest of voters. But there are a lot of people that vote emotionally and do things like spoiler votes and protest votes to let "the establishment" know their displeasure with the way the establishment has led.

Personally, I think they'll find Westminster will continue to ignore the areas they've ignored for decades. And with less money to throw around the country, these communities will see even less of a fuck given about them by the government - regardless of whichever party is in charge.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://imgur.com/gallery/0zo7PC8

Gonna try the QR code in a bit 

[Fairy In Boots]

18 hours ago, SirBalon said:

What opinion? The backstop isn’t an opinion sunshine. It’s a peace treaty observed by every country on the planet and it was forced by the UK curiously enough. You cannot break it, it’s not permitted and in politics there’s demeanour and being in tune with reality.

BJ is a liar mate, a charlatan and a proven user of deception for his own personal goals. It’s curious that nothing legitimate politically (personalities) accompanies any hardline promoter of Brexit.

It’s no longer the “It’ll be the easiest deal in history” or the “have our cake and eat it” or the “the German car industry will put them in line” or even the fucking “sunny uplands”  

I could go on about all the positives that were sold to idiots on the leave campaign and no nobody is using them. Just... at best... It’ll be a bump on the road and we’ll be fucking fine.

There is no rhetoric from Remain. Only shock, horror and being bloody shit scared. That for those that have no modum of getting out of it with dual nationality + like Farage has managed with his sons who he has nationalised them German.

“BJ is a liar mate, a charlatan and a proven user of deception for his own personal goals.”

you could swap out BJ with any politician the world over, this doesn’t mean your point is somehow credible. 

The backstop is insisted by the EU not the U.K when considering the NI/ Irish border, thegood Friday agreement calls for no hard border something that is threatened by no deal. The backstop is basically the EU saying if no hard border then you must still operate under our rules, therefore it’s a token Brexit in which we’re still under EU rule but have surrendered what say we had. Facts mate

Also shock and horror is farcical it’s a trade union, we’re simply swapping one trade agreement for another. Admittedly like all change there’s a period of adjustment and the long term benefit is no guarantee. But shock and horror behave, that why I call you propaganda shite like that.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

14 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

"£350m a week will be spent on our NHS"

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"there will be adequate food"

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"corpse piling is going to be run smoothly"

 

It must just be me but I don’t see why stockpiling Incase of distruption due to Brexit is used as a political stick to beat brexiteers with. 

It’s basically prudent, do you not think Spanish businesses that import from the U.K. have adjusted their supply chain to cope with potential disruption at the border? 

Tbh it’s not different from when the French have a strike like their probe to do so every so often and blockade the ports. 

[The Artful Dodger]

On 08/09/2019 at 21:04, Fairy In Boots said:

Mate that’s bollocks I’m 34 I grew up on a council estate in a council house in Birmingham with a younger sister and a widowed mother who held a job down throughout the 90’s as a single parent to provide. I’m fully state education I’ve just been promoted at work over a lad that comes from a much more privileged background than me, has a full business degree etc.

I’m driving a +30kcar, I own my own home and I’m well into the higher tax threshold. The system provides opportunities for those with the bollocks to take them, i graft, I care, I put the hours and effort in I reap the rewards. Everyone I see who whines about it is usually doing the minimum and expects the system to just help them. 

Going on from the point I made to Rando about social circles, mine has whittled down from 13-15 of us to about 6 all from the same background all doing well and it’s because we play ball, the others 6 sit back and wait for it to come to them. 

You’re in a system where it costs £15 to register a business and then you whinge about opportunity. I have my day job and I buy and sell online, I turn over 80k  a year doing this 2-3 hours a night. I’ve used the proceeds to do up my house without nibbling at the equality, my mortgage will be done by the time I’m 42. I saved up doing shit jobs to get a deposit for a house, then I left a stable job to pursue a career.

At present I provide for 1 adult and 2 kids (3rd due Jan btw) and we run 2 cars enjoy a holiday abroad each year and have a few k set aside to pay for higher education for my kids. 

I never had a named bit of gear till I was 14 years old, frequently got called tramp or stig etc etc I grew up in more poverty than what’s classed as poverty now and I’m 100% on this the biggest obstacles are those we put in front of ourselves. 

While I'm happy for your personal success, you can't generalise an anecdote. The statistics paint a very different story. This isn't all top down, institutions at the bottom are failing too. Our education system is absolutely abysmal, with degrees now almost meaningless and a generation of vacuous narcissists now among us. Work ethic, knowledge and modesty are now things of the past. We've created the stupidest and most selfish culture. 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Inverted]

The Court of Session (highest Scottish court) has ruled that the prorogation was unlawful - Government now has to appeal to the Supreme Court. Also now I don't know if it's ambiguous as to whether Parliament is now technically still in session, until the UKSC gives its decision. 

https://t.co/oTQLIMgLv4?amp=1

[SirBalon]

48 minutes ago, Inverted said:

The Court of Session (highest Scottish court) has ruled that the prorogation was unlawful - Government now has to appeal to the Supreme Court. Also now I don't know if it's ambiguous as to whether Parliament is now technically still in session, until the UKSC gives its decision. 

https://t.co/oTQLIMgLv4?amp=1

This is an interesting one as to whether or not Parliament has to go back into session. Under normal walks of life until an appeal is judged upon, the latest ruling would be law.

But the most important part in all of this is that right now the HRH Queen Elizabeth II was lied to by Boris Johnson in the name of the Government of the UK. There’s even more to come on this with what Dominic Grieve has been investigating in reference to documents and telephonic communication as to proof on the reasons for the suspension of Parliament. 

And the breaking of the law, corruption and fraud of the whole Leave apparatus since the campaign pre-2016 referendum just keeps giving. That in itself tells us enough!

Plus the fact the government don’t want to release the Yellow Hammer documentation.

[Inverted]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

This is an interesting one as to whether or not Parliament has to go back into session. Under normal walks of life until an appeal is judged upon, the latest ruling would be law.

But the most important part in all of this is that right now the HRH Queen Elizabeth II was lied to by Boris Johnson in the name of the Government of the UK. There’s even more to come on this with what Dominic Grieve has been investigating in reference to documents and telephonic communication as to proof on the reasons for the suspension of Parliament. 

And the breaking of the law, corruption and fraud of the whole Leave apparatus since the campaign pre-2016 referendum just keeps giving. That in itself tells us enough!

Plus the fact the government don’t want to release the Yellow Hammer documentation.

The Court of Session refused to give an order explicitly ordering that parliament be recalled likely because they didn't want to rock the boat too much before the UKSC made a final decision, but it's interesting from a theoretical point of view. 

 

[SirBalon]

14 minutes ago, Inverted said:

The Court of Session refused to give an order explicitly ordering that parliament be recalled likely because they didn't want to rock the boat too much before the UKSC made a final decision, but it's interesting from a theoretical point of view. 

 

I think we’re gonna get more damning stuff on this way before next Tuesday when the Supreme Court passes final judgment. Maybe even later on this afternoon. 

[SirBalon]

 

[SirBalon]

 

[Inverted]

15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I think we’re gonna get more damning stuff on this way before next Tuesday when the Supreme Court passes final judgment. Maybe even later on this afternoon. 

I think the case will be hugely embarrassing for the government but ultimately I doubt the SC will follow the Court of Session's approach. The English approach to constitutional law is much more focused on the absolute unjusticiability of prorogative power. 

I can a imagine a decision which is very scathing and which essentially finds the government to have acted improperly and deceitfully, but which refuses to declare the prorogation illegal. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Inverted

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think the case will be hugely embarrassing for the government but ultimately I doubt the SC will follow the Court of Session's approach. The English approach to constitutional law is much more focused on the absolute unjusticiability of prorogative power. 

I can a imagine a decision which is very scathing and which essentially finds the government to have acted improperly and deceitfully, but which refuses to declare the prorogation illegal. 

More fuel to give on the fact we need a written codified constitution. 

[SirBalon]

 

[Harry]

I assumed this whole proroguing play went off the table once the Parliament had legislated against a no Deal brexit...

What's the expected pathway now? 

[SirBalon]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

I assumed this whole proroguing play went off the table once the Parliament had legislated against a no Deal brexit...

What's the expected pathway now? 

Cummings will probably look a different illegal angle to come at Parliament with. 

[RandoEFC+]

What's the process of impeaching like in this country? Boris was part of the law-breaking Leave campaign, now he has apparently unlawfully prorogued parliament before stating that he will unlawfully ignore what Parliament passed into law this week and refuse to ask for an extension.

I wonder how far we have to go down this route before people start acknowledging that this is the type of tyrannical dictatorship that horrifies and mystified the British public when it's going on in Iraq or sub-Saharan Africa. Obviously we're a long way from those standards but lying to the public to win a referendum that eventually allows him to take the greatest position of power in the country without being elected to that position so that he can show everyone how far above the law I think he is is where it starts. Thankfully we actually have systems in this country that won't allow him to take things too much further without being checked but he is showing that he would play the full on dictator if he was able to.

[SirBalon]

@Inverted Read these threads please mate...

These are people that know. As much as can be known...

 

[SirBalon]

It just keeps giving which beggars the question as to how any level headed and balanced human being can support any of this and not ask themselves what have I done!

 

[RandoEFC+]

10 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It just keeps giving which beggars the question as to how any level headed and balanced human being can support any of this and not ask themselves what have I done!

 

Even if you rubbed that tweet in the faces of the entire population 70% of them aren't educated enough to know what it means and most of the others don't want to know.