UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

22 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Those are all assumptions by either using historic errors or nit picking at certain aspects of recent times. Shall we look at Labour's record on Brexit over the past three+ years?

This current Lib Dem lot have attacked (and continue to do so) the Tories as much as Labour.

Yeah got forbid I don't trust a party that's shown it doesn't have strong ideological beliefs and then turn around and get in bed with the Tories and betray those beliefs. Why on earth would anyone trust them now? Just because they appear the most committed to ensuring we remain?

We already know where they stand on Labour. They want support so they can form a coalition with the Tories - they'll go through with Brexit at the end of the day if that's what it takes them to cling to some semblance of power. Fuck em.

[SirBalon]

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah got forbid I don't trust a party that's shown it doesn't have strong ideological beliefs and then turn around and get in bed with the Tories and betray those beliefs. Why on earth would anyone trust them now? Just because they appear the most committed to ensuring we remain?

We already know where they stand on Labour. They want support so they can form a coalition with the Tories - they'll go through with Brexit at the end of the day if that's what it takes them to cling to some semblance of power. Fuck em.

Look, I get what you're saying and I find it as abhorrent as you do (many do) on what they did when that Clegg run Lib Dems Party got into bed with the Tories. But you shouldn't be selling lies where they don't exist as unadulterated lies are what this version of the Tories are all about and they're being called out on them every hour on the hour... There is no way in hell this Lib Dems Party are getting into bed with the Conservatives and that's a fact. They're completely opposed and all of this cat-fighting won't help. It's bad enough from a "remain" perspective that the Brexit Party are rumoured to be paving the way for a Tory victory by standing aside on maybe more than 100 seats without all of this bullshit being spouted.

Read and listen to what the Lib Dems are consistently saying right now by smashing the Tories at every given moment. But I do also want to castigate them for entering this (I repeat) cat-fight by also slipping the odd remark against the Labour Party every now and then (Labour a reciprocating in turn with their own, shame on them!) because ultimately they're all in this for one reason, power.

I have no idea how you stand on political ideological terms but there does seem to be a rather clear line making itself evident with your comments on this which is fair enough, we're all free to feel, think, and act upon our own particular beliefs, but let's keep it honest. You, I or anyone doesn't have any idea what the future holds and creating hypothetical outcomes that have no basis of truth on the present is frankly absurd and damaging. We can all bring out errors of the past and Labour have their own depending on how old you are and how far back you can go. Now is now!

We should stick to attacking the Tory Party as their victory (looking more and more likely by the day) will destroy the fabric of this country in terms of the working classes.

Watch this...

 

[SirBalon]

Eeerm.... Excuse me, what time are the riots again? 

Happy Independence Day to all of you.

 

[RandoEFC+]

@SirBalon James O'Brien makes some good points sometimes and is good at making ill-informed know it alls look stupid but you don't half rim the bloke on here .

[Inverted]

I think this election will basically come down to what happens once Parliament dissolves and the electoral rules kick in for the media.

The Tories lose their main advantage for a short while, and then Labour have a matter of weeks to shift the narrative from Brexit, to that chart above - people are seething about the economic situation they live in, and Labour are the only ones proposing to do anything about it. 

Meanwhile the Tories are potentially fighting to not bleed votes to Farage and so they might have to stick to the Brexit battle. 

Labour's only chance is that people are sick of talking about Brexit, are receptive to an economically focused campaign, and that the Tories are too busy asserting their Brexit credentials to tackle it. 

[SirBalon]

50 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think this election will basically come down to what happens once Parliament dissolves and the electoral rules kick in for the media.

The Tories lose their main advantage for a short while, and then Labour have a matter of weeks to shift the narrative from Brexit, to that chart above - people are seething about the economic situation they live in, and Labour are the only ones proposing to do anything about it. 

Meanwhile the Tories are potentially fighting to not bleed votes to Farage and so they might have to stick to the Brexit battle. 

Labour's only chance is that people are sick of talking about Brexit, are receptive to an economically focused campaign, and that the Tories are too busy asserting their Brexit credentials to tackle it. 

Farage is pacting with Johnson to removing competition from those seats paving the way for ease in important areas.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

@SirBalon James O'Brien makes some good points sometimes and is good at making ill-informed know it alls look stupid but you don't half rim the bloke on here .

It matters not how I come across mate, at least not to me. The content is the only thing that matters and this is a free speech portal to refute those arguments. I use the most basic form of making people understand reality, the only reality which in most individuals it would jerk a reaction of correction. To those it doesn’t execute this important fix, then we know exactly what they’re about without even requiring questions asked.

[Inverted]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Farage is pacting with Johnson to removing competition from those seats paving the way for ease in important areas.

That's not confirmed yet, but looking more and more likely. 

Not sure how that would impact the Brexit Party's anti-establishment message, or the idea of Brexit being anti-establishment, if they basically confined themselves to be a wing of the Tory party. 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Inverted said:

That's not confirmed yet, but looking more and more likely. 

Not sure how that would impact the Brexit Party's anti-establishment message, or the idea of Brexit being anti-establishment, if they basically confined themselves to be a wing of the Tory party. 

It’ll be interesting to see which are the extreme racist and xenophobic areas if and when they emerge from any pact.

[Inverted]

It also would mean that it's even more important for Labour to drive home the economy message - the BP has nothing to offer except Brexit, so if that gets pushed down the agenda they're stuck. 

Despite the effort that has went into obscuring it, I think people do understand the Labour policy of "have a new referendum, go for a soft Brexit if Leave wins".

It's not that controversial a policy, and with it already established and argued over already, Labour should move on to other issues.  They've done the graft on their Brexit policy. 

The Lib Dems for example have not yet been seriously scrutinised on their policy to just revoke, and in what cases they would help pass a new referendum or not - that's going to be hard for them once they start getting more attention with the electoral media rules.

[RandoEFC+]

Didn't Farage say that he'd rather Remain than accept Johnson's deal? I think a lot of people are assuming that Farage will step aside for the Conservatives but I'm sure he'll want something from Johnson in return. It's a hell of a leap for Farage to go from being dead set against Johnson's version of Brexit to stepping aside to help his party gain a majority so that they can get Johnson's Brexit through parliament.

[Stan]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Didn't Farage say that he'd rather Remain than accept Johnson's deal?

Are we taking irrelevant politicians at their word now ?

[Stan]

Can't go outside due to all these riots that Brexiters said would happen if we didn't leave EU on 31st October.

Traffic blocked up, public transport shut down, supermarkets looted, shops and cars vandalised and damaged. Just terrible some of the scenes that have occurred.

 

 

Now, what actually happened out on the streets...

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Didn't Farage say that he'd rather Remain than accept Johnson's deal? I think a lot of people are assuming that Farage will step aside for the Conservatives but I'm sure he'll want something from Johnson in return. It's a hell of a leap for Farage to go from being dead set against Johnson's version of Brexit to stepping aside to help his party gain a majority so that they can get Johnson's Brexit through parliament.

I genuinely believe that he would rather remain than anything over anything than a hard Brexit. If Brexit happens, he's not really politically relevant anymore. But if we get a hard Brexit, he's probably willing to cash in all his political capital for... cash. So I think with No Hard Brexit, he'd much rather remain and keep running as an anti-EU MEP and just waste everyone's time and steal a salary from the EU for doing absolutely nothing. He made similar comments after May's deal as well.

 

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Look, I get what you're saying and I find it as abhorrent as you do (many do) on what they did when that Clegg run Lib Dems Party got into bed with the Tories. But you shouldn't be selling lies where they don't exist as unadulterated lies are what this version of the Tories are all about and they're being called out on them every hour on the hour... There is no way in hell this Lib Dems Party are getting into bed with the Conservatives and that's a fact. They're completely opposed and all of this cat-fighting won't help. It's bad enough from a "remain" perspective that the Brexit Party are rumoured to be paving the way for a Tory victory by standing aside on maybe more than 100 seats without all of this bullshit being spouted.

Read and listen to what the Lib Dems are consistently saying right now by smashing the Tories at every given moment. But I do also want to castigate them for entering this (I repeat) cat-fight by also slipping the odd remark against the Labour Party every now and then (Labour a reciprocating in turn with their own, shame on them!) because ultimately they're all in this for one reason, power.

I have no idea how you stand on political ideological terms but there does seem to be a rather clear line making itself evident with your comments on this which is fair enough, we're all free to feel, think, and act upon our own particular beliefs, but let's keep it honest. You, I or anyone doesn't have any idea what the future holds and creating hypothetical outcomes that have no basis of truth on the present is frankly absurd and damaging. We can all bring out errors of the past and Labour have their own depending on how old you are and how far back you can go. Now is now!

We should stick to attacking the Tory Party as their victory (looking more and more likely by the day) will destroy the fabric of this country in terms of the working classes.

But Lib Dems have said they're not going to form a coalition with Labour as long as Corbyn's the leader - it's incredibly unlikely that Corbyn won't be the Labour leader by the election. They'll either form a coalition or force a hung parliament - neither of which really resolves any issues. I don't know why you're calling this unadulterated lies - it's the political reality of the Lib Dems. They're not going to win a majourity, the best chance they have of doing anything meaningful politically is forming a government through a coalition... and they've written off forming a coalition with the big party that isn't gung-ho for Brexit. Note how they haven't ruled out forming a coalition with the Tories. The electorate ignoring political realities is what got into this fucking mess - we'd all do well if they could avoid doing the same thing twice.

You can't say "you have no idea what the future holds" and just hope for the best. That's literally how we got into this mess - people made projections about what Brexit would actually mean for the UK and they were rubbished with statements like "this is just hypothetical speculation, it doesn't account for x, y and z. PrOjEcT fEaR." It'd be much better if voters took a look at the actual political reality and voted based off the likely outcomes of what would happen.

Remain voters should ask themselves: 1.) should I trust a conservative government to fix a decade of problems brought on by a conservative government? After they've answered that then: 2.) should I trust a party that will have to form a coalition to have any meaningful political capital, but has ruled out working with the party that's proposed a measure that would actually provide a mechanism for the UK to remain - but hasn't ruled out working with the same party they worked with last time as they sold out their beliefs? 3.) since No Deal is unlikely, should we vote for the party that's proposing the people get another say between: a.) a soft Brexit with one of the shite deals we've already negotiated, or possibly another shit soft Brexit deal a new government might negotiate & b.) remaining.

And it's especially important because it's not just Tories that are going to lose voters to the Brexit party. There are loads of traditional labour voters that feel betrayed by Labour for "not respecting democracy" in respecting the referendum where people voted for the status quo or an undefined variable - and they just don't care that it's shaping out to be a pretty shit variable. They're people that feel left behind by Westminster entirely and want to see change from the top down - even if it hurts them, because they think all politicians have let them down.

I personally don't think there's much hope though - the best hope is a Labour led government brings us a second referendum. It's not a likely outcome.

[SirBalon]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I genuinely believe that he would rather remain than anything over anything than a hard Brexit. If Brexit happens, he's not really politically relevant anymore. But if we get a hard Brexit, he's probably willing to cash in all his political capital for... cash. So I think with No Hard Brexit, he'd much rather remain and keep running as an anti-EU MEP and just waste everyone's time and steal a salary from the EU for doing absolutely nothing. He made similar comments after May's deal as well.

 

But Lib Dems have said they're not going to form a coalition with Labour as long as Corbyn's the leader - it's incredibly unlikely that Corbyn won't be the Labour leader by the election. They'll either form a coalition or force a hung parliament - neither of which really resolves any issues. I don't know why you're calling this unadulterated lies - it's the political reality of the Lib Dems. They're not going to win a majourity, the best chance they have of doing anything meaningful politically is forming a government through a coalition... and they've written off forming a coalition with the big party that isn't gung-ho for Brexit. Note how they haven't ruled out forming a coalition with the Tories. The electorate ignoring political realities is what got into this fucking mess - we'd all do well if they could avoid doing the same thing twice.

You can't say "you have no idea what the future holds" and just hope for the best. That's literally how we got into this mess - people made projections about what Brexit would actually mean for the UK and they were rubbished with statements like "this is just hypothetical speculation, it doesn't account for x, y and z. PrOjEcT fEaR." It'd be much better if voters took a look at the actual political reality and voted based off the likely outcomes of what would happen.

Remain voters should ask themselves: 1.) should I trust a conservative government to fix a decade of problems brought on by a conservative government? After they've answered that then: 2.) should I trust a party that will have to form a coalition to have any meaningful political capital, but has ruled out working with the party that's proposed a measure that would actually provide a mechanism for the UK to remain - but hasn't ruled out working with the same party they worked with last time as they sold out their beliefs? 3.) since No Deal is unlikely, should we vote for the party that's proposing the people get another say between: a.) a soft Brexit with one of the shite deals we've already negotiated, or possibly another shit soft Brexit deal a new government might negotiate & b.) remaining.

And it's especially important because it's not just Tories that are going to lose voters to the Brexit party. There are loads of traditional labour voters that feel betrayed by Labour for "not respecting democracy" in respecting the referendum where people voted for the status quo or an undefined variable - and they just don't care that it's shaping out to be a pretty shit variable. They're people that feel left behind by Westminster entirely and want to see change from the top down - even if it hurts them, because they think all politicians have let them down.

I personally don't think there's much hope though - the best hope is a Labour led government brings us a second referendum. It's not a likely outcome.

Mate, there is no such thing as a remainer that will vote Tory, not THIS Tory Party!

What I mean by I have no idea what will happen means in terms of the final result of the GE. Right now it looks more like a Tory victory and I’m afraid that there isn’t a bit more time so Boris Johnson can fuck up some more which he inevitably would do.

These Liberals won’t form a coalition with the Tories and there is as much point in asking them as there is in asking for an alliance between Tories and Labour or the SNP and the Tories. No point in the question as the Lib Dems have been digging even more into the Tories over the past months than even Labour.

What pisses me off are tribalists from any side especially both Labour and Lib Dems. For months they’ve been working in tandem on social media as well as even pro remain journalists. Now this cat firght has started which is childish and extremely low in intelligence. Of course the Lib Dems cannot win an election and they’ve said that they can’t form a coalition with Corbyn, not the Labour Party although obviously that’s the term used. It’s Corbyn that they don’t trust as they’ve spoken to people like Starmer, Jess Phillips and a couple of others recently when it was in the air of an interim leader. How many Tories are out there that won’t vote Conservative because of Boris Johnson amongst a couple of others. There are a number of them, I even know a few.

[Inverted]

I love how Tories harken back to the exact same rhetoric (and posters) used by Churchill against Attlee, when the Labour government that then won was the best there's ever been for ordinary Britons.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I love how Tories harken back to the exact same rhetoric (and posters) used by Churchill against Attlee, when the Labour government that then won was the best there's ever been for ordinary Britons.

I like how they're using fear of "breaking up the UK" when the union's probably more fractured and likely to break up if Tories go ahead with Brexit.

[Carnivore Chris]

Fuck Brexit.

[God is Haaland]

"Votes for foreigners" 

[SirBalon]

@Dr. Gonzo

 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 29/10/2019 at 14:07, Gunnersauraus said:

@Fairy In Boots I have no idea why you would consider being a union rep an insult. Most union reps are proud to be one

I have no idea why you would consider being a union rep something to be proud of. 

Also SNP are keen to get this election done ASAP  because Salmond goes on trial for rape in jan which will negatively impact them. Shows where their priorities are really. 

[SirBalon]

The Spectator publishes another racist piece by Rod Liddle, in which he mocks a Labour MP who was a victim of domestic violence, having himself previously been arrested for assaulting his then pregnant girlfriend.

You may ask, what's this got to do with Brexit?

Well Rod Liddle is one of the standard bearers for all things Brexit and the nationalistic side of "Britishness". His writing is a perfect example of a decent proportion of why many voted Brexit back in 2016 and we've seen this sort of xenophobic, bigoted, racist and misogynistic stuff that papers like thr Daily Mail and the Express have been publishing for decades and even pumping it all up the closer the 2016 Referendum crept closer... We surely remember Boris Johnson when campaigning for Brexit (leader of Vote Leave at the time) saying this about Turkey and Turkish people; Turkey (population of 76m) is joining the EU. Vote Leave, take back control". Something that this month just ending he denied saying but he's on bloody video saying those exact words... Liar! Oops... Johnson a liar? 

Wel also all must remember the Nigel Farage UKIP Breaking Point poster (something I've mentioned various times before on here, but I shall keep on repeating it all that I feel necessary as Brits should feel embarrassed that their country ever permitted such unadulterated hatred in the form of a political campaign.

This poster portraying thousands of Muslims queuing to get into the UK... All Islamophobic and in this case, brown people, all bigoted, racist and in actual fact, fact of facts was AGAIN (as with BoZo's Turkey sentence) bullshit as there is no Muslim EU Member State, there is no EU Member State with brown people as a predominant race and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the UNITED KINGDOM is not in the SCHENGEN (Area) ZONE! which for thickos means that we do not have to accept or abide by any laws which in this case concern mass movements of refugees in search of safety (I won't go into what I feel about the ethical sentiments on that anyway).

Lies, lies and more lies... Bullshit galore that al stupid people fell for but fear not if you are one of the stupid, there were even some highly educated people that did so too but then again, being highly educated doesn't necessarily mean pertaining to the marked groups of intelligence, thankfully in reality a large proportion of this fair island.

Anyway... To the piece in The Spectator because I am likely and VERY willing to go on and on.

Now tell me, who in their right mind would publish such godawful disgusting misogynistic, racist and bigoted shite?

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I have no idea why you would consider being a union rep something to be proud of. 

Also SNP are keen to get this election done ASAP  because Salmond goes on trial for rape in jan which will negatively impact them. Shows where their priorities are really. 

What's wrong with being the one who makes sure people get their work rights?

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

@Dr. Gonzo

 

Lib Dems have flat out said they won’t form a coalition with Labour though. It’s just not as simple as saying they SHOULD work together, the party leadership on both sides has to make that possible first.

Until that happens voters need to absolutely consider the political realities facing them.

[SirBalon]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lib Dems have flat out said they won’t form a coalition with Labour though. It’s just not as simple as saying they SHOULD work together, the party leadership on both sides has to make that possible first.

Until that happens voters need to absolutely consider the political realities facing them.

Mate... Forget any talk about coalition! Who bloody cares about that. That isn't the point Ian Dunt is making!