Will you be watching?

[Tommy]

Germany vs. Spain watched by 17 Mio people in Germany. Best score of the tournament, but still a lot less than in previous tournaments. And the women's Euro final still holds the best score of the year with 17,9 Mio people. 

[Azeem]

On 26/11/2022 at 15:01, Michael said:

A question that has to be asked is, why do the migrant workers keep on going there in their droves, if they know it is bad?

What nudge said basically. Working in the Gulf does improve the lifestyle of their families back at home. The corporate sector in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh etc is far too small given their population. Even people with good education can find it better to work in the Gulf.

[Jimmyb]

A country in which homosexuality is illegal and which still has the death penalty. What a place to hold a World Cup. Who would want to have the competition there?

But let’s cast our minds back to England’s victory in the 1966 World Cup in England…..

The death penalty was abolished in the UK in 1969 (1973 in Northern Ireland). 

Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, but the age of consent was 21. This was reduced to 18 in 1994 and then to 16 in 2000. 

So much hypocrisy. Were we in 1966 any better or worse than the Qataris are now? Who are we to judge them for what we used to do - albeit 56 years ago.

Let us hope that with the spotlight on the issues - even though they are trying to suppress it - that they change over time to a more liberal society. 

I’m no way a religious person but ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, Jimmyb said:

A country in which homosexuality is illegal and which still has the death penalty. What a place to hold a World Cup. Who would want to have the competition there?

But let’s cast our minds back to England’s victory in the 1966 World Cup in England…..

The death penalty was abolished in the UK in 1969 (1973 in Northern Ireland). 

Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, but the age of consent was 21. This was reduced to 18 in 1994 and then to 16 in 2000. 

So much hypocrisy. Were we in 1966 any better or worse than the Qataris are now? Who are we to judge them for what we used to do - albeit 56 years ago.

Let us hope that with the spotlight on the issues - even though they are trying to suppress it - that they change over time to a more liberal society. 

I’m no way a religious person but ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

Nothing to do with hypocrisy! That were other times, demanding to accept these circumstances today because they were accepted then, is like demanding to agree with slavery, child labour, and burning of heretics in the UK, because they were once accepted in that country.

[Jimmyb]

You are right. These were other times. I’m saying we need to give Qatar the time to change at their own pace. I was just pointing out that we were once the same so I do think it is hypocritical for us to condemn. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, Jimmyb said:

You are right. These were other times. I’m saying we need to give Qatar the time to change at their own pace. I was just pointing out that we were once the same so I do think it is hypocritical for us to condemn. 

And what I did say is, it isn't hipocritical, because times moved on. Or do you think it's hipocritical to condemn the war in Ukraine because the UK fought the Boer wars at the begin of the last century? By the way even if times hadn't changed having commited errors in the past is no excuse to repeat or tolerate them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 25/11/2022 at 17:28, 6666 said:

It's crazy that you guys got triggered by me saying it must be because Germany aren't good right now. 

I have morals. I'm just not as naive as to think I'm gonna change the world by not watching football. It's moronic to be honest.

You can say nonsense like "they won't like low TV ratings" but is the issue the human rights or the tournament being there? Low TV ratings in Germany or anyone in Europe isn't going to convince them to change their laws.

Also, reality is that the tournament being there has created the discussion. Majority of people boycotting wouldn't care about human rights in Qatar if the tournament wasn't there. And the tournament being there already led to some reforms regarding the rights of migrant workers.

Boycotting doesn't make sense. It might make you feel like you're doing something, and that's the only reason you're probably doing it, but you're not affecting anything regarding human rights in Qatar.

It's not about a lack of morals, it's about not being delusional. Not watching the World Cup probably has less of an effect than a hashtag on twitter.

But no, you must be a hero.

South Africa's apartheid leaders are probably so gutted they never hosted the World Cup

[6666]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

South Africa's apartheid leaders are probably so gutted they never hosted the World Cup

Going by your logic everyone would've forgotten about apartheid if they did, and if they were insane enough to believe that then I'm sure they were gutted... Reality of course is that it wouldn't have worked like that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Going by your logic everyone would've forgotten about apartheid if they did, and if they were insane enough to believe that then I'm sure they were gutted... Reality of course is that it wouldn't have worked like that.

I mean I think most people have forgotten about when Argentina had a military dictatorship and hosted (and won, I think) a World Cup. And nobody particularly gave a fuck about Russia's annexation of Crimea while they were hosting it.

So maybe question that reality of yours pal 

Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if an astounding amount of people have no idea about Apartheid in South Africa in the first place.

[6666]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean I think most people have forgotten about when Argentina had a military dictatorship and hosted (and won, I think) a World Cup. And nobody particularly gave a fuck about Russia's annexation of Crimea while they were hosting it.

So maybe question that reality of yours pal 

Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if an astounding amount of people have no idea about Apartheid in South Africa in the first place.

None of that had any relevance to the tournament taking place there. Political journalists don't somehow think "wait there's a World Cup on, let's stop talking about politics".

If a subject has been extensively covered, it naturally gets less and less attention through time regardless if there's a sport going on.

That's reality. No one has cared about Qatari politics more than now. And they'll stop caring after it finishes. Not because "sports washing" worked (because that makes no sense as there was next to no discussion about Qatari politics beforehand) but because everyone's already said everything they're gonna say and because without the World Cup there's less attention on Qatar.

Don't know what part you can honestly disagree with. Just accept the terrible Guardian article you read or the moronic MSNBC story you saw was incorrect.

[Michael]

On 27/11/2022 at 17:44, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yes the first would should stop intervening negatively in these countries and playing their part in the systems of corruption that plague parts of the world.

But then I think you’d see the price of basically everything go up… and honestly these first world countries often don’t have the answers to tackling poverty themselves.

But like @nudge said, looking “big picture” at the causes of the problem itself… it doesn’t really address the issue as it is currently.

And that issue is Qatar is a fantastically wealthy country, that literally relies on these migrants to function on a day to day basis (seriously, go look up how much of the population of Qatar is actually Qatari…). Despite this fantastic wealth, they’ve made the choice to be cruelly exploitative to the migrants they depend on.

I think it’s made all the more fucked up given that Qatar aren’t exactly short of the resources to make life… not shit… 

Surely all the issues/problems should be improved. Qatar should improve the work conditions for these labourers (where they have for a while now gone out of their way to say/show that they have done) and the countries of origin of these people should improve the living conditions of their citizens. You ask most labourers in Qatar if they like living in Qatar or why are they in Qatar and the vast majority will give you a positive answer. Why? Because in most cases their living conditions and standard of life is better than in their own countries. Again, that's not to say that Qatar should not have improved the living conditions for these labourers themselves, because they should have, and they have apparently now done so. 

I am fully aware that Qatar is a wealthy country and I myself mentioned their population in a previous thread a while back. Yes, they have a population of around 300,000 people. But their wealth is beside the point. We live in a world where capitalism rules. The point is that the standard of living should be improved in most countries. Corruption should be put a stop to as much as possible. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if my networth was 10 million and your networth was 1 million, we should both be giving some money to the old homeless woman on the street. I would be no more obliged to do so than you, as we both have the wealth and the means to help her.

As I said in a previous thread, which wasn't really addressed by anyone. I just find the inconsistency in all of this a bit laughable. I personally do not mix politics with sport. But if we are going to do so, lets be consistent. Like I mentioned in my previous thread over a week ago now. Where was the outrage when Russia hosted the last World Cup in 2018? Where was the outrage with what they were doing in Donbass? They were literally engaging in warfare in another country, murdering innocent people! What about the fact they just steamrolled into Crimea and took it? Ukrainians were being killed on a daily basis by Russians and Russian backed separatists when that World Cup was going on, but nobody was saying a word. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing at times. Furthermore, what about the winter Olympics that were held in China not so long ago. No one seemed too bothered then about the serious human rights abuses that happen in China, the terrible abuse of the Uighur people being just one violation of human rights committed by the Chinese regime. But no, no mention of any of that when the Winter Olympics were held in China. 

We should either be consistent with our criticism or just not mix sports with politics. To consistently criticize Qatar for their substandard treatment of foreign labourers, even after they have addressed these issues and yet not say a word about Russia murdering Ukrainians since 2014, when Russia hosted the World Cup in 2018, quite frankly smacks of outrageous hypocrisy. People want to talk about a boycott? If I were to mingle politics with sport(I don't), I know which World Cup was the obvious one to boycott.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, 6666 said:

None of that had any relevance to the tournament taking place there. Political journalists don't somehow think "wait there's a World Cup on, let's stop talking about politics".

If a subject has been extensively covered, it naturally gets less and less attention through time regardless if there's a sport going on.

That's reality. No one has cared about Qatari politics more than now. And they'll stop caring after it finishes. Not because "sports washing" worked (because that makes no sense as there was next to no discussion about Qatari politics beforehand) but because everyone's already said everything they're gonna say and because without the World Cup there's less attention on Qatar.

Don't know what part you can honestly disagree with. Just accept the terrible Guardian article you read or the moronic MSNBC story you saw was incorrect.

 the fuck is that last paragraph

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

Surely all the issues/problems should be improved. Qatar should improve the work conditions for these labourers (where they have for a while now gone out of their way to say/show that they have done) and the countries of origin of these people should improve the living conditions of their citizens. You ask most labourers in Qatar if they like living in Qatar or why are they in Qatar and the vast majority will give you a positive answer. Why? Because in most cases their living conditions and standard of life is better than in their own countries. Again, that's not to say that Qatar should not have improved the living conditions for these labourers themselves, because they should have, and they have apparently now done so. 

I am fully aware that Qatar is a wealthy country and I myself mentioned their population in a previous thread a while back. Yes, they have a population of around 300,000 people. But their wealth is beside the point. We live in a world where capitalism rules. The point is that the standard of living should be improved in most countries. Corruption should be put a stop to as much as possible. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if my networth was 10 million and your networth was 1 million, we should both be giving some money to the old homeless woman on the street. I would be no more obliged to do so than you, as we both have the wealth and the means to help her.

As I said in a previous thread, which wasn't really addressed by anyone. I just find the inconsistency in all of this a bit laughable. I personally do not mix politics with sport. But if we are going to do so, lets be consistent. Like I mentioned in my previous thread over a week ago now. Where was the outrage when Russia hosted the last World Cup in 2018? Where was the outrage with what they were doing in Donbass? They were literally engaging in warfare in another country, murdering innocent people! What about the fact they just steamrolled into Crimea and took it? Ukrainians were being killed on a daily basis by Russians and Russian backed separatists when that World Cup was going on, but nobody was saying a word. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing at times. Furthermore, what about the winter Olympics that were held in China not so long ago. No one seemed too bothered then about the serious human rights abuses that happen in China, the terrible abuse of the Uighur people being just one violation of human rights committed by the Chinese regime. But no, no mention of any of that when the Winter Olympics were held in China. 

We should either be consistent with our criticism or just not mix sports with politics. To consistently criticize Qatar for their substandard treatment of foreign labourers, even after they have addressed these issues and yet not say a word about Russia murdering Ukrainians since 2014, when Russia hosted the World Cup in 2018, quite frankly smacks of outrageous hypocrisy. People want to talk about a boycott? If I were to mingle politics with sport(I don't), I know which World Cup was the obvious one to boycott.

 

I’m not going to comment on the Olympics because I don’t care about the summer or Winter Olympics. But I will say the genocide of the Uighurs is probably the most consistently talked about ongoing ethnic cleansing attempts of our time. There’s others that come and go in news cycles.

And not that it compares to invading a neighbor… but this World Cup did end up financing Taliban connected construction companies - but I don’t think FIFA’s complicity in the suffering of Afghans has been mentioned much either.

I’m not even saying boycott the fucking thing, even though I should given their role in suppression of a human rights movement that directly impacts me/family members - I’m not even fucking boycotting it.

I’m saying hold organizations like FIFA accountable and stop giving shitty governments good publicly.

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

Surely all the issues/problems should be improved. Qatar should improve the work conditions for these labourers (where they have for a while now gone out of their way to say/show that they have done) and the countries of origin of these people should improve the living conditions of their citizens. You ask most labourers in Qatar if they like living in Qatar or why are they in Qatar and the vast majority will give you a positive answer. Why? Because in most cases their living conditions and standard of life is better than in their own countries. Again, that's not to say that Qatar should not have improved the living conditions for these labourers themselves, because they should have, and they have apparently now done so. 

I am fully aware that Qatar is a wealthy country and I myself mentioned their population in a previous thread a while back. Yes, they have a population of around 300,000 people. But their wealth is beside the point. We live in a world where capitalism rules. The point is that the standard of living should be improved in most countries. Corruption should be put a stop to as much as possible. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if my networth was 10 million and your networth was 1 million, we should both be giving some money to the old homeless woman on the street. I would be no more obliged to do so than you, as we both have the wealth and the means to help her.

As I said in a previous thread, which wasn't really addressed by anyone. I just find the inconsistency in all of this a bit laughable. I personally do not mix politics with sport. But if we are going to do so, lets be consistent. Like I mentioned in my previous thread over a week ago now. Where was the outrage when Russia hosted the last World Cup in 2018? Where was the outrage with what they were doing in Donbass? They were literally engaging in warfare in another country, murdering innocent people! What about the fact they just steamrolled into Crimea and took it? Ukrainians were being killed on a daily basis by Russians and Russian backed separatists when that World Cup was going on, but nobody was saying a word. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing at times. Furthermore, what about the winter Olympics that were held in China not so long ago. No one seemed too bothered then about the serious human rights abuses that happen in China, the terrible abuse of the Uighur people being just one violation of human rights committed by the Chinese regime. But no, no mention of any of that when the Winter Olympics were held in China. 

We should either be consistent with our criticism or just not mix sports with politics. To consistently criticize Qatar for their substandard treatment of foreign labourers, even after they have addressed these issues and yet not say a word about Russia murdering Ukrainians since 2014, when Russia hosted the World Cup in 2018, quite frankly smacks of outrageous hypocrisy. People want to talk about a boycott? If I were to mingle politics with sport(I don't), I know which World Cup was the obvious one to boycott.

 

So you're arguing people shouldn't boycott WC in Qatar because they didn't boycott WC in Russia? Or in other words, because they did wrong once, by not boycotting WC Russia they're obliged to continue doing wrong?

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So you're arguing people shouldn't boycott WC in Qatar because they didn't boycott WC in Russia? Or in other words, because they did wrong once, by not boycotting WC Russia they're obliged to continue doing wrong?

No, I am not for boycotting any tournament. As I said, I don't like to mix sports with politics. I watched the Russia World Cup, and I am watching this World Cup. But for those who want to do some boycotting, a little consistency wouldn't go amiss. 

[Michael]

58 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’m not going to comment on the Olympics because I don’t care about the summer or Winter Olympics. But I will say the genocide of the Uighurs is probably the most consistently talked about ongoing ethnic cleansing attempts of our time. There’s others that come and go in news cycles.

And not that it compares to invading a neighbor… but this World Cup did end up financing Taliban connected construction companies - but I don’t think FIFA’s complicity in the suffering of Afghans has been mentioned much either.

I’m not even saying boycott the fucking thing, even though I should given their role in suppression of a human rights movement that directly impacts me/family members - I’m not even fucking boycotting it.

I’m saying hold organizations like FIFA accountable and stop giving shitty governments good publicly.

It's not about caring about a major sporting event or not caring about it, it's about being consistent. If we are going to critique various countries hosting major sporting events, we shouldn't just cherry pick certain incidents, we should look at the big picture and be consistent with our criticisms.

I am also not referring to you when I mentioned the boycott, because I know that you are clearly watching it. I was just making the wider point to those who have decided to boycott it. Yes, we can and should criticize Qatar for supporting the Taliban, but then once again, we should be consistent and criticize all the other countries who have supported the Taliban as well and those who have actually created that mess in Afghanistan. But moving on, as you acknowledge, that doesn't compare to what Russia has done in Ukraine since 2014. I'd like someone to answer the question, where was the criticism of Russia hosting the World Cup in 2018? The media were very quire about it, and as a result, a lot of the public were quite about it as well. My point is clear, for those wanting to criticize, they should be consistent.

I think FIFA would be very restricted if they were to only select hosting events to governments that we could deem as being above board and squeaky clean. There are far worse governments out there than Qatar's. You'd probably rule out most of the Middle East, large parts of Asia, Africa and even many countries in South and Central America.

[nudge+]

FIFA doesn't need to be very restrictive, it just needs not to be a corrupt piece of shit organisation that sells the tournaments for the highest bidder with no football culture and infrastructure. I know, I know, that's too much to ask. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

21 minutes ago, Michael said:

It's not about caring about a major sporting event or not caring about it, it's about being consistent. If we are going to critique various countries hosting major sporting events, we shouldn't just cherry pick certain incidents, we should look at the big picture and be consistent with our criticisms.

I am also not referring to you when I mentioned the boycott, because I know that you are clearly watching it. I was just making the wider point to those who have decided to boycott it. Yes, we can and should criticize Qatar for supporting the Taliban, but then once again, we should be consistent and criticize all the other countries who have supported the Taliban as well and those who have actually created that mess in Afghanistan. But moving on, as you acknowledge, that doesn't compare to what Russia has done in Ukraine since 2014. I'd like someone to answer the question, where was the criticism of Russia hosting the World Cup in 2018? The media were very quire about it, and as a result, a lot of the public were quite about it as well. My point is clear, for those wanting to criticize, they should be consistent.

I think FIFA would be very restricted if they were to only select hosting events to governments that we could deem as being above board and squeaky clean. There are far worse governments out there than Qatar's. You'd probably rule out most of the Middle East, large parts of Asia, Africa and even many countries in South and Central America.

Can't speak for the UK, still that isn't the case for German media and public neither, although there was no boycot.Saying there weren't massive criticisms of the Russia WC here, just isn't true, though.

[Michael]

4 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Can't speak for the UK, still that isn't the case for German media and public neither, although there was no boycot.Saying there weren't massive criticisms of the Russia WC here, just isn't true, though.

That's interesting, because there was hardly any criticism of the 2018 World Cup being hosted in Russia, as far as the British media was concerned, nor from the English-speaking media outlets from the other major countries. At least the media in Germany seems to be consistent in its criticisms.

[Michael]

16 minutes ago, nudge said:

FIFA doesn't need to be very restrictive, it just needs not to be a corrupt piece of shit organisation that sells the tournaments for the highest bidder with no football culture and infrastructure. I know, I know, that's too much to ask. 

I agree with the part of your argument where you say that FIFA needs to be less corrupt. But "no football culture" and "no infrastructure"? I think Qatar pretty much has both. The infrastructure in the country is as advanced as it gets. As for "football culture", it depends on what your definition of it is. If you mean having a great history of playing at the World Cup, then yeah, of course Qatar wouldn't fit the bill. But should we necessarily just restrict hosting a World Cup to countries that have competed or done well at a World Cup in the past? Should we ignore the fact that Qatar, however small they are, are the reigning Asian Cup champions and that they are a football mad nation? I think that these are important factors to look at and to take into account.

[Rucksackfranzose]

21 minutes ago, Michael said:

That's interesting, because there was hardly any criticism of the 2018 World Cup being hosted in Russia, as far as the British media was concerned, nor from the English-speaking media outlets from the other major countries. At least the media in Germany seems to be consistent in its criticisms.

To be fair, in one regard it's easier to criticize such sports events from a German standpoint, since many historians wrote recognized treatises how the 1936 Berlin Olympics were instrumentalised by Nazi propaganda and ultimately helped consolidating their regime even more.

[nudge+]

13 minutes ago, Michael said:

I agree with the part of your argument where you say that FIFA needs to be less corrupt. But "no football culture" and "no infrastructure"? I think Qatar pretty much has both. The infrastructure in the country is as advanced as it gets. As for "football culture", it depends on what your definition of it is. If you mean having a great history of playing at the World Cup, then yeah, of course Qatar wouldn't fit the bill. But should we necessarily just restrict hosting a World Cup to countries that have competed or done well at a World Cup in the past? Should we ignore the fact that Qatar, however small they are, are the reigning Asian Cup champions and that they are a football mad nation? I think that these are important factors to look at and to take into account.

I meant football infrastructure. At the time of the bidding, they had a single football stadium available, and even that one had to be refurbished, then they built eight new ones. Doesn't sound like a great football infrastructure to me... 

As for culture... Sorry, but if you have little to none supporters in the stands in domestic league and have to import Lebanese Ultras to support your national team, it says all I need to know about their football culture. 

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, Michael said:

That's interesting, because there was hardly any criticism of the 2018 World Cup being hosted in Russia, as far as the British media was concerned, nor from the English-speaking media outlets from the other major countries. At least the media in Germany seems to be consistent in its criticisms.

Pretty sure there was quite a fair bit of reporting about the threat of racism, hooliganism and culture in Russia.

 

Perhaps not as sustained as what we've seen for Qatar and this tournament, but the political climate in Russia perhaps also wasn't as bad as what we see currently with Ukraine. The Salisbury poisoning thing was closer to that tournament than the Ukraine conflict/war. To say there was hardly any criticism is incorrect, I believe.  

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, nudge said:

I meant football infrastructure. At the time of the bidding, they had a single football stadium available, and even that one had to be refurbished, then they built eight new ones. Doesn't sound like a great football infrastructure to me... 

 

Don't a lot of countries promise new stadia and refurbished stadia in order to hold World Cups/Euros though?

This isn't me saying Qatar does have a football culture. It pales into insignificance to countries that have held the tournament in the past, but new/refurbished stadiums is normal for countries that bid. 

[Michael]

1 minute ago, nudge said:

I meant football infrastructure. At the time of the bidding, they had a single football stadium available, and even that one had to be refurbished, then they built eight new ones. Doesn't sound like a great football infrastructure to me... 

As for culture... Sorry, but if you have little to none supporters in the stands in domestic league and have to import Lebanese Ultras to support your national team, it says all I need to know about their football culture. 

They do have a great football infrastructure now though with those stadiums, don't they? Of course, they are just built for the World Cup. But the fact that it is now there for the World Cup, is a positive thing. I mean, you can't expect a country of only 300,000 locals to have an 89,000 capacity stadium under normal circumstances, it just wouldn't make any sense. Even South Africa, who have a significantly larger population than Qatar, couldn't find use for many of their specially built stadiums, after the 2010 World Cup. 

As for footballing culture, football is played regularly all over the country. It's their national sport I believe. Most local games might not fill stadiums, but when it's a big cup game, they do get quite full. But again, what can we expect from a country of 300,000 people? Percentage wise, equate that to England or Germany, in terms of those interested and not interested in football. It would probably work out around the same, in terms of those interested. The fact that there is usually a significant turnout for their national team, despite their small population, is a positive thing. Hiring those Lebanese Ultras is a bit much, but I guess the Qatar authorities wanted their stadiums as full as possible, when the national team played. How else is a country of only 300k people going to fill an 89,000 or even a 69,000 capacity stadium? We have to be realistic here.